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Fox host likens Oregon terror 'entrapment' to East Germany

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posted on Dec, 1 2010 @ 12:02 PM
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I've been arguing that the FBI did a good job based on the info I have heard.
I'd like to find some straight info. I'd never heard what they supposedly did. I had heard that the kid tried to take a trip to the Middle East to find someone to help him or to be trained. Was the FBI behind that? It was also claimed that he had been interested in this stuff since age 15 and they only began talking to him 5 months ago.

I don't see what this really does either, I mean this isn't that spectacular of a story I don't think it is going to enact any more laws to liberate you from your rights.
It seemed a little shady, but a good job to me.
The kid had to have gotten himself in this position. I mean I think he deserves a fair trial and if it shows that he wasn't seeking someone to help him get a bomb off, and he wasn't seeking to go the middle east for terrorist training then yeah the FBI was wrong. If they got a totally innocent kid to go this far they are wrong, but I don't think he was innocent. As I have said in every thread on this subject.

The guy (he was 19, I keep saying kid, he wasn't) "detonated" the "bomb" therefore he made the decision to kill innocents. You could not get a normal 19 year old to do that.

Also, a commenter on that story makes a good point:



Also, if you grant Napolitano's argument, that thinking and planning a crime isn't criminal, then you will have to release every guy arrested in sex predator stings because that is EXACTLY what police do to arrest them. They present an opportunity, encourage it, set up a place and time, coax the person there and then arrest them. If you agree with Napolitano, and I grant that he makes a point that can be reasonably argued, then all sex predator stings need to stop now.


Though many times I've thought it was pretty bad that cops contacted these lonely men posing as young girls and putting stuff in their minds that may not have been there. Still, I can't deny the fact that if those men made it to an actual child's home, they would have committed the crime. Even if they didn't, if they had a change of heart just before, is it worth the risk?
edit on 1-12-2010 by GogoVicMorrow because: (no reason given)




posted on Dec, 1 2010 @ 12:12 PM
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reply to post by FPB214
 


Yes, he most certainly would have. Even with the sometimes questionable FBI intervention, you still have cases of attempted murder, he chose to be criminal with them instead of outing them for the good of the people. This kid had a chance up until he made the phone call on the cell that was to detonate the bomb.

He chose to detonate.



posted on Dec, 1 2010 @ 12:14 PM
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Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by FPB214
 
Kind of like saying if someone has ever had an alcoholic drink, that they are bound to kill someone in a car accident while they are driving drunk.

In this case, the analogy would be that the FBI took him to the bar, paid for his drinks until he was drunk, bought him a car, gave him the keys, sent him down the street and pushed a baby carriage out in front of him.


Perfect analogy


Remember a while back the girl caught with a bit of weed was told that she could get off if she helped with a sting operation? Since she was rank amateur at buying, she got killed in the sting...

Florida Woman Murdered in Undercover Drug Sting


A Florida woman arrested for possession of marijuana and ecstasy was pressed into service as a drug informant, then murdered during a sting operation where she was told to purchase 1,500 ecstasy pills, coc aine, and a gun from a pair of drug dealers. ABC News reported May 13 that the body of Rachel Morningstar Hoffman, 23, was found two days after she disappeared following a meeting with the drug dealers. Hoffman had agreed to take part in the staked-out drug buy in return for leniency in her drug case, where she faced possible prison time for possession of 200 grams of marijuana and a handful of ecstasy pills.


www.nowpublic.com...

No rights at all if you are suspected of terrorism...

Senators Blast Obama on Panty Bomber


Collins and Lieberman argue that the DOJ's actions undermine President Obama's claim that we are at war against al Qaeda and request that the administration "reverse this error" by transferring Abdulmutallab to the Defense Department where he would be tried before a military commission. In a separate announcement, Senator Jeff Sessions, the ranking Republican on the Senate Judiciary Committee, has also called for Abdulmutallab to have his rights revoked. In a statement, Sessions said: It is now clear beyond doubt that the administration squandered an invaluable opportunity to gather intelligence from a captured terrorist fresh from al Qaeda’s operation in Yemen, a new center of their activities. But this weekend, the President's spokesman actually argued that the right call was made and that fifty minutes of interrogation were sufficient. “Instead of trying to excuse the inexcusable, the administration should take responsibility for the dire consequences of its decision to swiftly grant civilian rights to this foreign terrorist. “Civilian interrogation means that a suspect must be told he does not have to answer any questions and that he will be provided a lawyer. Captured combatants do not enjoy these same privileges. “I strongly urge the President to right this wrong and revoke Abdulmutallab’s civilian status. This will allow authorities to resume the terminated interrogation and to gather new intelligence about the operations of al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula. This intelligence could save lives.


www.weeklystandard.com...

The FBI CIA and other assorted spooks NEED to find terrorists... so they will grab at any straw to justify the TSA, Homeland Security Patriot Act etc... If they can't produce a terrorist under every bed we might start to question why so many billions are being spent on intelligence operations.

People know of the FBI, CIA. NSA... some have heard of others like the NRO, DIA... but do you know just how many there are? I have documented over 100 of em... Maybe I will make a thread.

Sure the kid was a wanna be bomber... but I bet a few hundred thousand kids have talked about blowing things up in school but will never carry it out. Chemistry labs are already dying out in schools. Just try to buy a good chemistry set in stores that isn't all baking soda and vinegar these days.

Have a chem lab in your garage? You MUST be making meth or illegal fireworks. Some states even owning chemistry equipment is illegal, as are simple chemicals like sulfur. I already had such an issue... I have a mineral assay lab in my garage. One day the cops were in the area looking for a gang dude with a gun. My side door to the garage was unlocked and the cop with dog looked inside. Next day I had a detective over asking me about my lab...

This is beginning to look like the MvCarthy era all over, but worse. Even in NAZI Germany if you were a German citizen and had your papers, you were fine. The NAZI's did not consider Germans the enemy




posted on Dec, 1 2010 @ 12:14 PM
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reply to post by GogoVicMorrow
 


"You could not get a normal 19 year old to do that"

That is exactly my point. I agree with everything you said. If they find this guy really truly wanted help in his heart to kill innocent Americans, and if they find he tried to detonate the bomb that was fake, he deserves to be locked up. His intentions were obviously there, because im 18 and the FBI could not do this to me, because the will is not held within my heart to commit such a crime.



posted on Dec, 1 2010 @ 12:17 PM
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reply to post by zorgon
 


IF it is found he dialed that number, he was in fact definetly GOING to and tried to carry it out. IF not, then okay fine with me. If so, he deserves to be locked up.
edit on 1-12-2010 by FPB214 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 1 2010 @ 12:23 PM
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Originally posted by FPB214
reply to post by zorgon
 


IF it is found he dialed that number, he was in fact definetly GOING to and tried to carry it out. IF not, then okay fine with me. If so, he deserves to be locked up.
edit on 1-12-2010 by FPB214 because: (no reason given)


All the media reporting I have seen, so take with a grain of salt, has the kid dialing the cell phone to detonate the bomb. When it did not go off the officer told the kid to step out of the vehicle because it might be interfering with the signal. When the kid stepped out, he again dialed the number, with no explosion, which is when he was taken into custody.

At several point the control officer asked him if he wanted to go through with it, and the kid consistently stated he did. If its accurate, I believe the kid chose the location for the bomb.

The issue is how the kid moved from point A to point B, which was with the encouragement of the FBI. The instructed the kid on how to make a bomb, and actually made several prototypes and detonated them to show him how its done (which was another issue that the FBI violated the law by doing this).

The argument I have seen is the kid had thoughts of doing all of this, but no means to carry it out by himself. Its not against the law to have those thoughts (acting on them is different). When the FBI got involved they were the ones who gave the means to carry it out, which is where the argument of entrapment comes in.

AG Holder addressed the entrapment question by saying the FBI was within established laws to avoid entrapment.

Now, the info above is from a few different media sources who were talking about it, so the details might be off, but that is the gist of it.



posted on Dec, 1 2010 @ 12:25 PM
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Originally posted by FPB214
reply to post by GogoVicMorrow
 


"You could not get a normal 19 year old to do that"

That is exactly my point. I agree with everything you said. If they find this guy really truly wanted help in his heart to kill innocent Americans, and if they find he tried to detonate the bomb that was fake, he deserves to be locked up. His intentions were obviously there, because im 18 and the FBI could not do this to me, because the will is not held within my heart to commit such a crime.




We live in a country where thoughts are not illegal.



posted on Dec, 1 2010 @ 12:30 PM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 


I understand where your coming from, and the only reason this is even being debated is because of the FBI's involvement and the procedures they took. Yet, I feel most Americans will agree if this kid dialed the numbers, more than once, to blow up innocent Americans, why let him run free? Doesn't sound right. If the guy would have found anyone else (which through some sources say he wanted to be trained anyways) it would have happened the same way. They would have advised him on how to do it correctly, and he would have detonated a real bomb that would have turned a beautiful evening into a bloodbath.



posted on Dec, 1 2010 @ 12:32 PM
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Originally posted by zorgon

Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by FPB214
 
Kind of like saying if someone has ever had an alcoholic drink, that they are bound to kill someone in a car accident while they are driving drunk.

In this case, the analogy would be that the FBI took him to the bar, paid for his drinks until he was drunk, bought him a car, gave him the keys, sent him down the street and pushed a baby carriage out in front of him.


Perfect analogy





Uh.. what? No that analogy is not a good analogy, people like to leave out key elements.

The analogy would work better if the Oregon guy was likened to a guy whom had had a whole lot of drinks already, drove himself to the bar, then when he got in yelled " I WANNA GET F***ED UP!" until the another patron (the FBI) approached him bought him more drinks, helped him find his keys, and then watched to see if he would drive.

edit on 1-12-2010 by GogoVicMorrow because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 1 2010 @ 12:32 PM
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reply to post by captaintyinknots
 


Correct, though actions are. If he took the ACTION of learning how to make a bomb and then took the ACTION of dialing the numbers to detonate it to create a bloodbath on American soil, then he deserves to be locked up, case closed. If not, then okay, we will see what evidence the FBI has.



posted on Dec, 1 2010 @ 12:33 PM
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reply to post by FPB214
 


They have said he did dial the number to detonate and that is when they arrested him.
2nd



posted on Dec, 1 2010 @ 12:33 PM
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reply to post by zorgon
 



The FBI CIA and other assorted spooks NEED to find terrorists... so they will grab at any straw to justify the TSA, Homeland Security Patriot Act etc...
Agreed, but more like they need to create them, because they can't find any. It sure looks like they created this terrorist, because he trained with them and they provided what he needed.

I have a sneaking suspicion that if there are any real terrorists on American soil, the glorious FBI will not catch them before they do damage. That is why they had to create a terrorist, to justify all this(unconstitutional) crap they are unloading on us.


edit on 1-12-2010 by butcherguy because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 1 2010 @ 12:35 PM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 


I don't think they showed the kid how to make the bomb.. because if the kid made the bomb it would have been a real bomb! The kid bought the parts and sent them to the FBI thinking they were a bomb maker.



posted on Dec, 1 2010 @ 12:37 PM
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I agree that this child should still hold some responsibility, as he did intend to kill a bunch of people. However, I believe in the rule of law and civility, thus if he was entrapped, he is legally innocent.

This kid has a lot going against him though, as I don't believe their is a snowball's chance in hell that he will be acquitted. Such an emotional issue that has even lead to people willing to throw their freedoms and liberties out of the window. Some people are even willing to send their own children off to die over the issue of terrorism, eventhough you have a far more likely chance of dying from a falling vending machine, than you do from being killed in a terrorist attack. In fact, the issue is so emotional, bucked up mainly by the MSM and certain poltiicians, people are willingto endanger their way of life to protect that way of life from the percieved threat of terrorism. It's like someone killing themself, in the off chance that they may be robbed some where down the road.

The issue that this is just kid, makes it all the more unjustified on behalf of the FBI, as children, especially teenagers, are so impressionable. They are so impressionable, that you can even apparently talk them into killing themselves over the internet, as has been done before. I'm sure you can take any emotionally unstable child who may just be looking to fit in somewhere, then filled their void with everything they are looking for, such as friendship and purpose. That child will then strive to fit in with his new found friends.

Get this, at 19, you aren;t capable of drinking alcohol because it has been determined that kids aren't mature enough. However, you can buck their heads up and apparently teach them how to kill people and somehow they are they are mature enough.

All I have to say, is that this whole case seems ridiculous and sadly, this isn;t the only one of its kind, as it has apparently happened several times before.

If I had to guess, I would imagine that this is an effort to show the public that "terrorism" is really real and we should be deathly affraid of it. Then, it is most likely supposed to make us believe that our all encompassing FBI and Justice Dept. is effective at keeping us safe, even though they apparently can't catch the real threats, if they even exist in any viable manner.


--airspoon



posted on Dec, 1 2010 @ 12:37 PM
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reply to post by butcherguy
 


Do you people honestly think that there aren't any possible threats and possible terrorists on our country's soil? I have a brother who has been on two deployments, watched friends and enemies be killed and do killing himself, yet the FBI is just pretending to have terrorists so they create them? This is a worldwide problem and it is right here in our country. Once people get past the "oh the FBI and Government are pretending to have terrorists by creating them", then you will see the truth. The truth that no normal, civilized, good human being would want to commit such a crime.



posted on Dec, 1 2010 @ 12:40 PM
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reply to post by airspoon
 


Not old enough to drink, but old enough to go die for your country.
Weird world.



posted on Dec, 1 2010 @ 12:40 PM
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reply to post by FPB214
 
You are right that the kid has a problem with the rules of our American society.

The FBI has a problem with operating inside the bounds of the law, being a law enforcement agency, they should have a higher regard for the law than the criminals that they are ostensibly trying to catch.



posted on Dec, 1 2010 @ 12:42 PM
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Originally posted by FPB214
reply to post by Xcathdra
 


I understand where your coming from, and the only reason this is even being debated is because of the FBI's involvement and the procedures they took. Yet, I feel most Americans will agree if this kid dialed the numbers, more than once, to blow up innocent Americans, why let him run free? Doesn't sound right. If the guy would have found anyone else (which through some sources say he wanted to be trained anyways) it would have happened the same way. They would have advised him on how to do it correctly, and he would have detonated a real bomb that would have turned a beautiful evening into a bloodbath.


Honestly speaking to me this says a lot about this country. Where the methods used to arrest someone who supposedly wanted to cause as many deaths as possible of innocent civilians are being challeneged by people. To me it says a lot.

What other country on this planet would go out of its way to protect and individual who wanted to bring it down?

As I said we dont always get it right, no country does. The hardest part in all of this is drawing the line in the sand between protecting the people and arresting the criminals with intent.

Its hard to fight against an entity that does not play by rules. Its even more difficult when the rule book we have doesnt cover the plays the other team is calling.



posted on Dec, 1 2010 @ 12:43 PM
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reply to post by butcherguy
 


That's a fair arguement. Im not all for the FBI, I just don't like the guy considering he had the intentions and tried killing innocent Americans. The FBI does work outside the boundaries of the law, which has been seen before this case, so that is true as well.



posted on Dec, 1 2010 @ 12:47 PM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 


Yep. You are on the money. The fact that people are looking at this so much actually shows how great this country is. It shows that people give a pretty long look and will even defend you until all doubt is erased. I mean, I think the kid should be locked up, but it's a testament to our pursuit of truth I guess (or some of us are really dumb).

This guy would never get this much defense and second glance in 99 percent of the other countries in the world.

Obviously the FBI were on to something because this kid tried twice to pull the trigger.



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