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Can China Invade Taiwan?

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posted on Mar, 27 2005 @ 08:42 PM
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The only thing i can think of off my head that the Chinese have for ASW is the Russian Ka-28 Helix helicopters. (decent ASW that is)


sinodefence
The PLA Navy (PLAN) purchased 4~6 Kamov Ka-28 Helix naval helicopters from Russia along with the two Sovremenny class missile destroyers in 1997. These helicopters represent a significant step forward in the PLAN’s shipborne helicopter capability. The PLAN is thought to be acquiring additional machines from Russia to be based on the two new improved Project 56E Sovremenny class destroyers and the new indigenous Type 052B and Type 052C destroyers.


As most of you are aware, the Sovremenny class is not really a ASW class, however the new Chinese DDGs might head in that direction.



[edit on 27-3-2005 by rapier28]




posted on Mar, 27 2005 @ 08:50 PM
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"Previously, PLAN doctrine did not task China's submarines with an ASW role. This is changing, and the development of submarine ASW tactics appears to be a priority."

Lin Zailian and Lu Yongzheng, "Certain Submarine Detachment under North Sea Fleet Conducts Drills and Develops 12 New Combat Methods," Jiefangjun Bao, 22 March 2002, FBIS Document No. CPP20020325000052.

www.globalsecurity.org...
www.navyleague.org...

11/25/2003: In what appeared to be an exercise to demonstrate China's ability to penetrate US-Japanese anti-submarine warfare (ASW) defense systems, a Chinese Ming class submarine sailed undetected to within 25 miles of Japan's southern Kyushu Island. Ming class submarines are diesel-powered and displace 2,113 tons. The Ming submarine was not discovered by a Japanese Maritime Self-Defense Force P-3C ASW aircraft until after the submarine surfaced and had raised the Chinese national flag. The P-3C is considered one of the most advanced ASW aircraft in the world, and the exercise was interpreted as a move to humiliate Japan and to send a warning to Taiwan. According to Taiwan's International Defense Review, the Ming belonged to the East Sea Fleet, most likely out of the Zhoushan naval base located at the mouth of the Hangzhou Bay, Zhejiang Province. The East Sea Fleet's primary mission is all Taiwan-related, either for attack or blockade purposes. ["China's navy floats a warning to Taiwan," Asia Times, 25 November 2003, www.atimes.com....]

Not there yet, but they're doing well. I think they will be, before they invade Taiwan. (2010 - 2015) America is going to loose its edge if it's not careful, with all the War on Terrror, etc.



posted on Mar, 27 2005 @ 08:51 PM
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Ballistic Missiles won't be the ones to fear but the tons of Red Bird -3s there are ready to launch. I prefer HN-3 or HN-2 over the DF-21As anyday.

052Bs are dedicated ASW destroyers are they not?

[edit on 27-3-2005 by COWlan]



posted on Mar, 27 2005 @ 09:03 PM
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How would America engage the Chinese Air Force?


Are you kidding? Two U.S. carrier groups would be enough to defend the airspace over Taiwan. The U.S. fighters are better than their Chinese counterpart not to mention our pilots. The U.S. has bases in S.K. Guam and other countries in that region more fighter can be launched if needed.



posted on Mar, 27 2005 @ 09:04 PM
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READ WHAT I SAID! DO NOT TAKE ONE PART OF IT OUT OF CONTEXT.



posted on Mar, 27 2005 @ 09:11 PM
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I know what you said you were talking bout an air battle over Chinese airspace, which to me is stupid. The U.S. is not dumb enough to engage over the Chinese airspace, their mission would be to defend the Taiwanese airspace.



posted on Mar, 27 2005 @ 09:14 PM
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Originally posted by Odium
"The island of Taiwan lies some 200 km off the southeastern coast of China across the Taiwan Strait, with the East China Sea to the north, the Philippine Sea to the east, the Luzon Strait directly to the south and the South China Sea to the southwest."

en.wikipedia.org...

"The People's Republic of China has also built an upgraded version of the HQ-10 labelled the HQ-15 with the maximum range upgraded from 150 km (93 mile) to 200 km (124 mile). "

en.wikipedia.org...

How would America engage the Chinese Air Force? Would it not be suicide to go into their air space, with a damn good Air Defence system? Also, isn't the HQ-15 going to be upgraded to give it even better range?

I've also seen on several pages (included the one I gave) Russia has a system that has a range of 400KMs. If this was the case, that would cause a lot of problems for anyone willing to help Taiwan.

As for them stopping the invasion with 700missiles pointed at Taiwan, roughly 900 by 2010 (I think it was that). I doubt Taiwan will have many ports, Air Fields or barracks left to defend themselves with. Especially since their Army is split over three Islands and China only needs to capture one.


Originally posted by WestPoint23
I know what you said you were talking bout an air battle over Chinese airspace, which to me is stupid. The U.S. is not dumb enough to engage over the Chinese airspace, their mission would be to defend the Taiwanese airspace.


That was not the point at all. Want another guess?

The point is that China has a missile defence shield, that goes over Taiwan's Air Space.



posted on Mar, 27 2005 @ 11:18 PM
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I agree with westy Two carrier battle groups is enought to defend taiwan airspace
those carrier have better Planes and better trained pilots

China has to gather Air support, transport planes and refueling tankers to get to taiwan after the missile strikes

And true china has missile to shoot over taiwan but im sure US is taking this into consideration and they may even have some way of shooting down those missile we just dont know it yet



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 01:07 AM
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Originally posted by rogue1
On another note both there economies are becoming mroe and more intertwiined. All the companies I do business with in China have offices in both Taiwan and the mainland, with many businesses being joint ventures


Yes, some can argue that this is part of the strategy China is using to take Taiwan down. It has a lot of benefit for China. Frist it sucks investment, and perhaps some technical know-how from Taiwan into China. Secondly the Chinese government can then have some leverage which they can use to control or manipulate Taiwan's business people. I think this is pretty obvious. Unfortunately a lot of business men in Taiwan don't give a damn about politics, they just want more oppertunity for money, and they just want the convience of China's market (same language, etc).

Although it is hard to predict what will happen...because economics is dynamics and goes both way. But it is always easier to destroy the enemy from within than from the outside, and some history has shown nations fell in the hands of merchants. Perhaps this can be called "digging your own grave"?



[edit on 28-3-2005 by twchang]



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 06:44 AM
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How does a naval blocade of the Straits of Malacca sound - Eighty percent of China's energy supplies pass through this pirate-infested waterway. China has a policy of growing energy stockpiles - between 30-60 days consumption and rising. Japan stands at around 170 days of consumption.



Whats Chinas brown water navy going to do about that? The battle is going to be on many fronts - Thats whats the United states specialises in.

[edit on 28-3-2005 by Vanguard]

[edit on 28-3-2005 by Vanguard]



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 08:34 AM
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Originally posted by FredT
Subs can be updated through ELF (Extremely Low Freq) transmissions. Essentialy they get a signal with thier call sign surface and get thier messages. Communication with the SSBN's is done in this manner.

When a war like taiwan happens it happens pretty fast, if the US can tactical in less than an hour of recieveing word that chinese forces had attacked taiwan then I would be impressed.


Yes, they have the biggest freestanding AF, but hom much of that is ASW?? A Mig 21 or a SU-30 cannot really hunt subs

They cant, but the The Z-8 naval variant helicopter, Z-9C Naval Helicopter and Q-5B attack aircraft all have the capability to hurt a sub..


And if the PLAN Sorties towards Taiwan in the middle of a war do you expect the subs to turn tail? No, they will go hunting......

The subs are going to go , "what the fk" and not go shooting off without getting clearance.
and if they do attack the straight isnt exactly the best place to fight...



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 08:45 AM
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Originally posted by rogue1

Whose simulations are these ? Whilst I don't doubt Beijings overwhelming military su[remacy over Taiwan, I still wonder how the Chinese would deliver enough men to the island with assciated equipment, especially to win the war in 6 days.


Taiwans own simulations

www.chinasupport.net...

www.geocities.com...


If the US did commit itself, its SSN's and converted SSBN's could deliver a fatal blow to any mariritime expeditioanry force. China has bugger all anti-submarine capability. That is of course if the US did commit.


The Sovremenny class of ships was designed specifically for anti-submarine warfare and will probably be assigned to keep an eye out for any U.S incursions


On another note both there economies are becoming mroe and more intertwiined. All the companies I do business with in China have offices in both Taiwan and the mainland, with many businesses being joint ventures


This is the more likely scenario... economic integration and reuinification



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 10:39 AM
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The point is that China has a missile defence shield, that goes over Taiwan's Air Space.


LoL that gave me a good laugh, china has “missile shield” that goes over Taiwan.



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 10:44 AM
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Originally posted by WestPoint23
LoL that gave me a good laugh, china has “missile shield” that goes over Taiwan.

Probably the same "missile shield" over the US...with its lone 747 with a massive laser....wonder if they use it for barbecues?.....



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 10:54 AM
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Originally posted by devilwasp

Originally posted by WestPoint23
LoL that gave me a good laugh, china has “missile shield” that goes over Taiwan.

Probably the same "missile shield" over the US...with its lone 747 with a massive laser....wonder if they use it for barbecues?.....


Yeah, it's the same one.

China "stole" it to use it over Taiwan.




posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 12:11 PM
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Originally posted by devilwasp

Originally posted by FredT
Subs can be updated through ELF (Extremely Low Freq) transmissions. Essentialy they get a signal with thier call sign surface and get thier messages. Communication with the SSBN's is done in this manner.

When a war like taiwan happens it happens pretty fast, if the US can tactical in less than an hour of recieveing word that chinese forces had attacked taiwan then I would be impressed.


If the Chinese intend to land troops their praparations would be extensive, giving the US ample time to postion forces if they so chose.



Yes, they have the biggest freestanding AF, but hom much of that is ASW?? A Mig 21 or a SU-30 cannot really hunt subs

They cant, but the The Z-8 naval variant helicopter, Z-9C Naval Helicopter and Q-5B attack aircraft all have the capability to hurt a sub..



These helicopters would be highly vulnerable to attack and their usefullness suspect at best. The quality of their dipping sonars and desposable buoys is several generations behind what the Americans have prepared themselves for. American submarine sonars can detect ships up to several hundred kilometers away.
They have been playing this game for a long time.




And if the PLAN Sorties towards Taiwan in the middle of a war do you expect the subs to turn tail? No, they will go hunting......

The subs are going to go , "what the fk" and not go shooting off without getting clearance.
and if they do attack the straight isnt exactly the best place to fight...

It may not be the best place to fight but they would still have the advantage. Not to mention the latest Mk 48 torpedo has a range of over 40 km and is almost impossible to shake off. It only takes one of these torpedos to break the back of a large lannding ship.



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 12:43 PM
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Originally posted by WestPoint23

The point is that China has a missile defence shield, that goes over Taiwan's Air Space.


LoL that gave me a good laugh, china has “missile shield” that goes over Taiwan.


Read the links I gave you, do a bit of research. I'm sure you can 'think' ?



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 02:40 PM
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Originally posted by rogue1
If the Chinese intend to land troops their praparations would be extensive, giving the US ample time to postion forces if they so chose.

Yes, they would place forces there BUT if that ammount of forces stayes in the same position for a long period of time, they will need to relax forces or else troops will become fatigued at the high level of alert.
You cant keep defcon 2 on for several weeks.



These helicopters would be highly vulnerable to attack and their usefullness suspect at best. The quality of their dipping sonars and desposable buoys is several generations behind what the Americans have prepared themselves for. American submarine sonars can detect ships up to several hundred kilometers away.
They have been playing this game for a long time.


Attack by who? The task force that would suddenly appear?

They would have a blanket of hundreds of fighters as air cover, if you mean to say the US is planning on destroying the PLAAF inside its own airspace then you must be nuts!
Yes but even then, sheer numbers will still catch a US sub, anyway one thing the US cant stop is a magnetic anomaly detecotor...unless US subs are made of tin now?



It may not be the best place to fight but they would still have the advantage. Not to mention the latest Mk 48 torpedo has a range of over 40 km and is almost impossible to shake off. It only takes one of these torpedos to break the back of a large lannding ship.

Thats if they can hit the thing with, surely the chinese would put a 240 KM range around the force, to stop any sub getting a chance of getting in..
Nothing is "impossible" only improbable



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 05:22 PM
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I think US weapons have a longer range then what they say they do



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 05:23 PM
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I think US weapons have a longer range then what they say they do


Like those nasty Iraqi rockets that went 20 miles further than allowed, and then used to demonstrate the case for war?




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