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Can China Invade Taiwan?

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Nox

posted on Dec, 11 2004 @ 03:29 AM
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Broadsword,

if only your political arguments were as persuasive and agreeable as your posts on martial arts forums (I am a fellow martial arts fanatic
).

You've implied multiple times that a country's history should have no effect on its current status. The US's terrible past should not be brought into the argument now because what's done is done. I agree.

You even mention that the future SHOULD be taken into consideration. For example, when the Americans expanded west ward on a genocidal agenda against the Native Americans just to claim land before the greedy Europeans could, to fulfill the Manifest Destiny and promote future American welfare. I even agreed with that.

What confuses me about your argument is how you obviously pay MUCH attention to China's terrible past (without an ounce of proof of whether you or any other American could have improved their destitute situation or not). You use examples of the past to determine NOW what China is like. I'm sure most of the examples and memories you have of Chinese corruption are already decades old.

Also, you obviously ignore China's future. Many of the Chinese on this thread view Taiwanese independence as a form of treason. As some have pointed out, Taiwan was not subjected to the same wars that China was due to the separation by a body of water. Suppose during World War 2, Hawaii decided they were safer by remaining neutral during the war. Suppose Hawaii opted for independence. How do you think you would have felt? How would the American population have felt? Outraged
(and possibly even frightened by the prospect of a Japanese-Hawaian treaty).

While personally, I don't mind Taiwanese independence, so long as it ensured a strong alliance between the two countries (slightly biased in favor of alliances with other countries), I can at least attempt to see things from the much hated Chinese point of view.

Yes, I'm making the outrageous claim that Westerners generally sympathize more for the Taiwanese because we are psychologically conditioned to value "freedom" and "independence" over almost all other virtues.

It's so easy to criticize the Chinese gov't by yammering about how Democracy could have turned China into a powerhouse if only it had been implemented after WW2. I'm sure it would have been much more difficult in practice, organizing several hundred million desperate, starving people under an American style democracy in such a short period of time. The decisions that needed to be made were quick and decisive. It was highly likely mistakes would be made.

China is improving, and steadily crawling towards a Democratic process that would make most westerners proud (or should I say, envious). Their middle class has grown to over 200 million of (many of which are technical experts). As history has suggested, a strong middle class forms a path towards democracy. China is currently doing its best to improve the living conditions of its average citizen. Doing so for 1.3 to 1.4 billion people is not a simple task.

I suggest you take your own advice and look towards the future rather than scolding a country for its corrupt past.




posted on Dec, 11 2004 @ 03:30 AM
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Originally posted by aryaputhra

And yeah I made another account, no, not because people ignored me; I actually do not even know how many have or did. If they did though, they just got tired of the truth in a lot cases. I made another account because I had to restart my computer which logged me off of my other account. I tried to log back on, but something went wrong and it wouldn't let me. I decided to just make another account instead.


yea...if you can't beat them at posting stuff..nuke 'em, nice policy chicom hackers. li'lle do they know we indians can beat their arse on IT.


Actually, Americans are quite aware of that. About a whole half of the top software companies on the planet are in India, even. And America pays these companies to do a good deal of work too, because it is cheaper and more efficient.

However, it takes America jobs which is a bad thing here.


Nox

posted on Dec, 11 2004 @ 03:44 AM
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Originally posted by aryaputhra

Originally posted by bodebliss
Hey Broadsword,

Ever notice the Chinese posters come at the same exact time each day and leave at the same time each day.


yeah, it's like one is an exact clone of the other.

I kindly ask you not to stereotype or flame anymore.

Those words have not an ounce of wisdom in them. I consider them a waste of words and possibly detrimental to intelligent thought.

Most people have made terrible comments on India's caste system. I often hear from my own Indian friends talking about the caste system in India (they still love their country). Even one of my friends who claims that his last name denotes his higher rank in the caste system, told stories about how people with the lowest rank (Dalit) were used to clean the sewers.

I don't think I need to actually cite the number of people who've died from disease and suffocation from cleaning the sewers.

Do I openly protest against the Indian caste system? No, because I don't live in India.
Besides what I hear on the news, and what I hear from friends, I haven't lived there myself and don't know enough to form a FAIR and UNBIASED opinion on the situation.

I understand this much: India's caste system has a lot to do with Hinduism and the concept of reincarnation. Lower ranking citizens MIGHT not mind as much, knowing that a proper lifestyle with no bad karma will lead to rewards in the next life when they are reincarnated.

Attacking the caste system may even be an attack on their religion and/or faith. I wouldn't do that, considering that faith and religion are partially why Bush was re-elected (a lot of men of faith voted against gay marriage and abortion). Do I protest against Christians? No. So why should I hypocritically criticize India? I don't.

I offer Indians (and most people who I'm not familiar with) an enormous benefit of the doubt. I try to remain fair and unbiased.

Can you at least make the SLIGHTEST effort to see things from the Chinese' point of view instead of childishly slandering and stereotyping 1/5th of the world's population?

Thank you ahead of time.



posted on Dec, 11 2004 @ 06:41 AM
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well Nox if you don't like that post respond to this prior post:

Here's my solution to the impasse in the Taiwan Strait.

Why don't the chinese have a few million children line the coast across from Taiwan and sing songs of LOVE for Taiwan , while throwing flower pedals in the Taiwan Strait.

I'm sure the taiwanese would feel the change and respond joyfully .

A new era of cross strait friendliness would bloom!

OR this one:

C'mon guys , the Chinese people have no enemies to their continued existence , but their own desire for alternate existence .

In other words, in the heartland there are rumblings of revolution.

In XinXiang, the Muslims want autonomy.

In Tibet, the Tibetans want autonomy.

Hong Kong is semi-autonomous and should be cut loose to save the corrupt innards of a dying regime . Hong Kong will be the cancer that kills the Chinese dragon.

The CCP can not have it both ways economic freedom, totalitarian government . It will fall under it's own stupidity.

If the CCP is not chi com , what is it?

The weapons , the saber rattling silliness is driving a new arms race . You don't think Russia is rearming because of the U.S. and Europe do you ?

No, Russia is rearming because of perceived threats from the EAST ! It already has no fear of the WEST , other than Putin's ongoing fear of criticism .

The real and only threat to the CCP is it's misguided threat assessment . It sees and reacts to something that is not there . For us it is like watching a blind man with a cane who walks and suddenly stops and whirls striking in all directions as if would be robbers approach.

This is funny to see , but sad to contemplate.

And if that don't suit ya there's the one up above about deterence thru missle building.


Nox

posted on Dec, 11 2004 @ 06:48 AM
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EDIT: MISSQUOTE

[edit on 11-12-2004 by Nox]



posted on Dec, 11 2004 @ 06:50 AM
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I realize that you get hung up on the american indian situation here ,but the worst parts of our policies came to an end when we gave them free reign over their reservations in the 50's and 60's .There are some oustanding issues. Like settlements of a major law suit over unpaid royalties ,land claims, water rights and such, but they can sue the gov't and most likely win.

Compared to that China is a hundred years in the past.

India outlawed the caste system in the 40's or 50's.



posted on Dec, 11 2004 @ 08:01 AM
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Originally posted by Nox
I kindly ask you not to stereotype or flame anymore.

Those words have not an ounce of wisdom in them. I consider them a waste of words and possibly detrimental to intelligent thought.

Most people have made terrible comments on India's caste system. I often hear from my own Indian friends talking about the caste system in India (they still love their country). Even one of my friends who claims that his last name denotes his higher rank in the caste system, told stories about how people with the lowest rank (Dalit) were used to clean the sewers.

I don't think I need to actually cite the number of people who've died from disease and suffocation from cleaning the sewers.

Do I openly protest against the Indian caste system? No, because I don't live in India.
Besides what I hear on the news, and what I hear from friends, I haven't lived there myself and don't know enough to form a FAIR and UNBIASED opinion on the situation.

I understand this much: India's caste system has a lot to do with Hinduism and the concept of reincarnation. Lower ranking citizens MIGHT not mind as much, knowing that a proper lifestyle with no bad karma will lead to rewards in the next life when they are reincarnated.

Attacking the caste system may even be an attack on their religion and/or faith. I wouldn't do that, considering that faith and religion are partially why Bush was re-elected (a lot of men of faith voted against gay marriage and abortion). Do I protest against Christians? No. So why should I hypocritically criticize India? I don't.

I offer Indians (and most people who I'm not familiar with) an enormous benefit of the doubt. I try to remain fair and unbiased.

Can you at least make the SLIGHTEST effort to see things from the Chinese' point of view instead of childishly slandering and stereotyping 1/5th of the world's population?

Thank you ahead of time.


Actually its a real disgrace, those Indians who frikkin sissy themselves off to foreign lands dreaming dollars for themselves, while socially they still believe in the caste system and other evils.They consider themselves to be of higher status just because they have gone th america or the U.K. etc..but the low down mentality about castes etc still remains

..while ppl like me(brahmin high caste btw) strive to bring up the lower strata of society in our homeland. Its not that I run an orphanage or adonation agency, Im an engg student and I go to college with ppl of all castes and religions. The lower class destitute of India are granted great relaxations vis a vis graduate education in terms of finance and merit too. Hence the more fortunate(like me) face difficulties as we require higher merit levels to get into colleges of our choice...but its a difficulty we take on with a smile as we know that some poor chap who has studied under a streetlight to go to college with us deserves to be there, never mind the lower merit..

I say this to all foreigners who know Indians that lament on their caste status...punch em' on da ballz for moi!!


Nox

posted on Dec, 11 2004 @ 08:10 AM
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Well, as you can plainly see,

India is making improvements for its society!

I'm glad to hear it. You see now how us foreigners (having not lived in India ourselves) can easily get the wrong impression of India and stereotype ALL Brahman as being careless about their fellow Indians?

I think China suffers from the same negative media.

Notice how American media neglects to mention terrors happening right now between Israelis and Palestinians, yet focuses on every mistake the Chinese gov't makes? It's grossly unfair. I try my best to take the underdog's position.



posted on Dec, 11 2004 @ 08:05 PM
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Actually, the American media ignores China pretty much too. Journalists don't necessarily, but the mainstream media doesn't mention much of China at all, at least not from what I have seen.



posted on Dec, 11 2004 @ 09:02 PM
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what does the US mainstream cover besides OJ Simpsin, Scott Peterson, Coby Briant,??? Why don't you read Wall Street Journal and watch CNBC, where China is one of the most frequent topics.



posted on Dec, 11 2004 @ 09:11 PM
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Saturday December 11, 2004 7:31 PM

AP Photo TPE116

By WILLIAM FOREMAN

Associated Press Writer


TAIPEI, Taiwan (AP) - Taiwan's pro-independence parties lost a hotly contested legislative election Saturday - a defeat that might reduce the risk of a conflict with China but also continue the political gridlock that has paralyzed one of Asia's youngest democracies.

The loss was a big blow to President Chen Shui-bian, who tirelessly campaigned for candidates and promised to use his control of parliament to revise the constitution and push for a new Taiwanese identity - pledges that unnerved China.

Chinese leaders dislike Chen because he refuses to accept their goal of unification. Taiwan has had loose ties with the mainland - just 100 miles to the west - throughout much of China's history. The Communists, who took over China in 1949, say Taiwan must unify eventually or endure a punishing attack.

Taiwan's opposition coalition, known as the ``blue team,'' won a fragile majority of 114 of parliament's 225 seats in a campaign that Chen would become too reckless and provoke China if his supporters controlled the legislature.

Voter Mary Lee, a 45-year-old Taipei office worker, said she backed the opposition, led by the Nationalist Party, because she feared Chen would start a war.

``We need the Nationalists to check and balance Chen Shui-bian so he won't lead the country on the dangerous path to independence,'' she said.

Nationalist leader Lien Chan celebrated his coalition's first victory in the last four major elections.

``Today we saw extremely clearly that all the people want stability in this country and want to continue to develop,'' Lien told a cheering, flag-waving crowd at his party headquarters.

Although Chen's Democratic Progressive Party was still parliament's biggest party with 89 seats, the party was no match for the Nationalist and People First parties, which for the past four years have teamed up to block the president's policies.

The president quickly conceded defeat, congratulated the opposition and urged all parties to work together.

``People have made their choices. Let's take it as a starting point for cooperation between the ruling and opposition parties,'' Chen said, ``Let's turn our competition into a force for pushing the nation forward.''

But it seemed unlikely that there would soon be an end to the intense political feuding that began when Chen was elected in 2000. Chen snapped the Nationalists' five-decades of rule on Taiwan, and the vindictive party has struggled to adapt to its role in the opposition.

Chen's support for more Taiwan-centric policies and his efforts to rid the island of China's influences have angered the opposition, whose supporters include many mainlanders who fled China when the Communists took over.

Political analyst Yang Hsien-hung said Chen made a strategic error in the campaign's final days by announcing that state-run companies with ``China'' or ``Chinese'' in their names will have to change their titles. Yang said the move seemed too radical.

``To win over the undecided voters, he should have adopted a more moderate stance,'' Yang said during a panel discussion on ETTV cable news.

One notable result was that parties known to take extreme positions on unification and independence finished poorly. The pro-unification People First Party won 34 seats - 12 less than in the last election. The staunchly pro-independence Taiwan Solidarity Union's support shrank by one seat to 12.

The biggest winner was the Nationalists, who picked up 11 more seats for a total 80. Chen's party only won two additional seats.

The president's supporters quickly left his party's headquarters, where a stage and massive TV screen were set up for a victory rally. Party workers looked glum and an elderly woman in a pink dress who was to sing at the celebration broke down in tears.

Related link: www.guardian.co.uk...



posted on Dec, 11 2004 @ 09:28 PM
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well why just limited only to TAIWAN put all together e,g JAPAN,SOUTH KOREA,and ALL WHO STAY TOGETHER WITH USA.........
yessss it is better for china to take all emms outta from this ASIA and MIDDLE EAST,into what reason i saying all this it is far more better for china to take all this asia rather then the USA and ENGLAND.A lot of people in USA again the war but all the media together with CIA people cover it up
so what the point if the USA want to invade it better CHINA take us all out
well why must CHINA wait USA is not the liberator anymore they are not the freedom fighters anymore they are the ANTICHRIST again all the jesus teching but the busT**** in the BLUE EAGLE OFFICE
made all thing worse then they should be.........
WELL-WELL please welcome MR ANTICHRIST I KNOW YOU IN ISRAEL RIGHT NOW.SO HOW YOUR NEXT MOVE?SMOOTH ENUFFF.
IT SEEM MOST OF THE MUSLIM JIHAD FIGHTERS A PLANNING THEIR NEXT MOVE WITH CHINA AND SOME OTHER COUNTRY......




posted on Dec, 11 2004 @ 09:36 PM
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Hi Hawkssss,

Did you write that?

How do you feel about the turns and twist of the present ?

As far as this election is concerned, it means nothing has changed.



posted on Dec, 11 2004 @ 09:46 PM
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unholy enterprise,

this thread is not about china taking over the world(it is ringed by nuking countries). Your in the wrong place.



posted on Dec, 11 2004 @ 10:15 PM
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Bodebliss

Write what? I dont understand your question.



posted on Dec, 11 2004 @ 10:23 PM
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Sorry Hawkssss,

I suffered a bit of sarcasm to you. forgive me. I was just trying to hear your view of this election.



posted on Dec, 11 2004 @ 10:33 PM
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Well, I think it is pretty clear that the people of taiwan wants status quo, not independence which will only lead us to war and possibly MAD for the world. I think the people of taiwan are very sensible in making this decision although the current government is still on the path to endangering our region and beyond.

[edit on 11-12-2004 by Hawkssss]

[edit on 11-12-2004 by Hawkssss]



posted on Dec, 11 2004 @ 10:49 PM
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Though we gave Bush a free hand this time, usually we employ the same strategy here in the US .

democratic Congress /republican president or republican congress/democratic president.

It keeps things from moving too fast.



posted on Dec, 11 2004 @ 10:58 PM
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Here is a good one for those americans that think China can only produce cheap toys and clothes.

Huawei just won its first telecom deal from Europe for 3G equipment for $300 million.

www.3gnewsroom.com...



posted on Dec, 11 2004 @ 11:25 PM
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Chinese companies making money on high tech endeavors. All good!

I want to see the Chinese people thrive.

The US will not be seen making deals with totalitarian governments to the detriment of Democracy. No matter how you think things look now, if you think the US is dealing w/ China to the detriment of Taiwan, it is not happening. So watch and learn and see the truth of my words.

Have you seen the movie 'the lord of the rings'?

It is not a fantasy. It is the true nature of how totalitarianism and freedom do not mix, do not compliment each other, and are severely opposed to one another.

It is how one and the other operates in the world we live in.

you should read and understand it for it is pertinent to the present.

you and I are, but small players in the great events of our time .
this battle twixt good and ill will be played out before our eyes to see.

Which side are you on?



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