Can China Invade Taiwan?

Originally posted by proteinx
your so called "taiwanese", two of you, cannot provide single solid analysis at this point.
good luck for your "culture revolution"

That cuts two ways, proteinx. You say they cannot provide proof, I see none from your side either.

The argument appears to be little more than:

Taiwan: we are a democracy and free, the name should reflect the facts.

China: you are not free and if you try to say it we'll prove you're not.

Pretty much why the average westerner will come down on Taiwan's side of the debate, regardless of government policy.

I suppose there is an argument that Taiwan is a province of China. But who's China? Not the PRC. Taiwan is a province of the Republic of China.
Say, where is that?

The ROC no longer exists and so Taiwan is no longer bound by it's history and is about to write a new chapter in it's own history.

A new history , not about what foreign regimes can take from Taiwan , but about what Taiwan can give to itself!

Proteinx plz tell me where do you stay?? Mainland china...??

I am working, but I still try my best to reply your post.

Originally posted by twchang

Another thing is that Taiwan's independence does not mean hositility against China. If a war does not occur, the situation will not be worse than right now, because right now China is hostile against Taiwan. If China choose not to be hostile to Taiwan, then there is no problem because Taiwan will not choose to be China's enemy.

I think you just twisted the basic fact. It is you want to betray Mainland and cause the hostility between mainland and taiwan. Before 1995, almost everything looks great. Since I was a kid, I was educated as �brothers and sisters in the island�, the island is �best island, or treasure island of Chinese�, since I was in mid school, I was educated as brothers and sister now come back to invest to help us. I was adimring and loving you people and most of us did. However, things become ugly, such ugly once you want to betray this country, most important, I think that is reason I hate you �son * of * bi*� too much is you guys keep trying to make connection with Japs, which rapped China so hard and so pain in not-long ago. Now you naively think once taian get independence, you will not become the �enemy�? The other thing, go to take look at the map, you will understand how important taiwan geograhically important to China or Chinese enemy. Onec Taiwan officially get independent, the door for China to revive basically closed forever, that alone can make you the enemy of China forever. So, please donot twist the basic reason and consequences.

Originally posted by twchang

But first of all, Taiwan will not declare independence immidiately. So I wouldn't say there is an immidiate consequence. Taiwan is already indepentent in practice, so the "indepentent support" we discussed is the support to adjust things so they fit more with the current status of Taiwan, and therefore make things easier. For example, the constitution can be changed or modified to suit Taiwan better without the wierd interference of China or US.

this paragraph is little funny,
Independce means war. Taiwan will be destroyed. That is plain simple.
the real world does NOT work like : how �independent� you think you are , then how �independent� the facts are.
Can I declare my home is independent from China? Yeah I can, and the cops still will knock my door. -------- Is there any meaning at all?
The last words �For example, the constitution can be changed or modified to suit Taiwan better without the wierd interference of China or US.� especially funny, cause you simplly let your brain fly without control? Ask yourself when you type: CAN THAT HAPPEN? Just like you go to USA capital hall and ask them: Can you leave Mideast alone? I am sure you will be thrown out.

Originally posted by twchang
In economy, Taiwan's economy is not set in stone. It will adjust itself. If China doesn't like Taiwan's investment there, they can just invest the money else where such as India, Mylasia and other countries, or moving some of the investment back to Taiwan, which will actually be better for the average people in Taiwan because it means more job oppertunities. Moreover, because China always want other countries to uphold that Taiwan is part of China, Taiwan usually have difficulties to establish trade agreement etc with other countries. If Taiwan is independent, China's arguement on other countries not to have official ties with Taiwan will be weaken, therefore it might become easier for Taiwan. But overall I wouldn't say that there are much to gain from "independence" in terms of economy, because Taiwan is already indepentent, and what you have now is probably only a bit less of what you will get.

First, many other countries, such as India or south east asia either have set much better policy or have much better construction, why taiwan origingally chose China and still stay in China? You simple igored the fact that we speak the same language,---it is much easier for the communication and management for any enterprise. Beside, you were always in the better compitition position than other investor cause China used to treat you like a brother, we think you make money is just like we make money. There is no way you can have such better position like this once you go to other countries. In fact, your �president� was encourging you guys to invest on other countries instead of mainland, however, who made it success?

Second, let's talk about the fact, Taiwan earned 60 billion from mainland last year, Taiwan its own expense about 40 billion last year, without the trade with mainland, you will immediately in debt, not alone you need to buy huge expense and outdated weapons forced by your protector. Now, you tell me: where will the money come from?

Third, economy is war battlefield too, it is even worse. Do you know Japan and China fight for the oid pipeline from Russia? Do you know Japan and German fight for the contract for Chinese super highway railroad between Shanghai and Beijing (sorry, dont know how to say in English). Once taiwa get offically independent, you will begin to face strong economic pressure from mainland, we will shut you down in almost every deal. Why? Read the last previous paragraph, when you are short of money, and we have enougth cash, we can easily even take the risk of not earning money with the goal of kicking you out of the market. Donot laugh, RCA, IBM PC both has been purchased by Chinese, and you will see a storm of purchasing wave in a short period of time since China has too much cash at this moment. And, your comment of �moving Taiwan manufcturing back to the island� ............I really donot want to waste my time, read some last business journal or economist.........please.

Originally posted by twchang
In terms of national security, there is a big benefit. If Taiwan is officially recognizes as an independent nation, then an aggression by China will be less likely because in the current situation of the world, aggression towards another nation is not favorable. Currently, only US openly states that it will not tolerate a war in Taiwan Strait. If Taiwan becomes officially independent, then Taiwan will be protected more by the international law, not just by US. Also, Taiwan can buy weapons from other countries more easily because they will have more grounds for supporting their arm sells to Taiwan.

Iraq is independent country recgoinzed by almost all nations in the world, UN totally rejected the plan of invasion of Iraq, did Iraq survive?
I said many times, the world is speaking for �power�, not for �ideology�. You keep thinking taiwan is democratic soceity, so the world shall treat you like �honey baby�. Sorry, man, you are too na�ve.
Also, once you lose your economy advantage (you are losing now, quickly and dramatically), I donot know where you can buy the weapons. At the same time, when China hold the lives of many countries big contacts, you think they will support your better life instead of their own? (think about China has just invest more than 20 billion in South America, holding 10 billion contract with German or France, many similar things happened around the world invovling China, not taiwan), if you still think everybody love taiwan--------then you are really a dangerous frog in the well.
But it is not odd, Your media report too much about taiwan domesttic affair and exaggerate any simple things involving taiwan, and almost none of rest of the world. That is the reason you only know about you. (not my words, but from the new president of singapore)


let me stop temparirally here, I will post more later to clear your brain.

You are really in a �culture revolution� status. We finally wake up by wasting 10 years in the history. The regretion and the pain is beyond most non-chinese feeling. And I am sorry to see same thing happening on you.

Read some books, jounals, watch more international news instead of which taiwanese movie star just #ed another one.





[edit on 9-12-2004 by proteinx]

[edit on 9-12-2004 by proteinx]

Hi there everybody, please stop using the term "Japs" as it is considered dergarotory. Thanks

FredT

not meaning to contradict you Fred... but is it really considered derogitory?

As an englishman I dad no offence to being called a "brit"

Originally posted by Lucretius
not meaning to contradict you Fred... but is it really considered derogitory?

As an englishman I dad no offence to being called a "brit"

Yeah,

I'm sure it's a much more derogatory than "ChiCom".

I think it really depends on his preference.

Originally posted by FredT
Wow, what revisionist historical ChiCom propaganda manual did that one come out of? Sounds to me the writer of the book must have been chasing the dragon no?

I don't know about any of you, but I actually took offense from this. It sounded a lot more derogatory than ProteinX's use of "Jap".

[edit on 9-12-2004 by Nox]

Isn't ChiCom a short name for Chinese Communist Party? Not every Chinese are ChiCom. But it should be ok if you are refering to CCP.

[edit on 9-12-2004 by twchang]

C'mon guys , the Chinese people have no enemies to their continued existence , but their own desire for alternate existence .

In other words, in the heartland there are rumblings of revolution.

In XinXiang, the Muslims want autonomy.

In Tibet, the Tibetans want autonomy.

Hong Kong is semi-autonomous and should be cut loose to save the corrupt innards of a dying regime . Hong Kong will be the cancer that kills the Chinese dragon.

The CCP can not have it both ways economic freedom, totalitarian government . It will fall under it's own stupidity.

If the CCP is not chi com , what is it?

The weapons , the saber rattling silliness is driving a new arms race . You don't think Russia is rearming because of the U.S. and Europe do you ?

No, Russia is rearming because of perceived threats from the EAST ! It already has no fear of the WEST , other than Putin's ongoing fear of criticism .

The real and only threat to the CCP is it's misguided threat assessment . It sees and reacts to something that is not there . For us it is like watching a blind man with a cane who walks and suddenly stops and whirls striking in all directions as if would be robbers approach.

This is funny to see , but sad to contemplate.

Originally posted by twchang
Isn't ChiCom a short name for Chinese Communist Party? Not every Chinese are ChiCom. But it should be ok if you are refering to CCP.

[edit on 9-12-2004 by twchang]

Chicom is a stereotypical and prejudice calling for a Chinese person. CCP is the Chinese Communist Party not "Chicom". Chicom is stereotypical because from what I've read from the past 80+ pages there's quite a lot of people who naturally expect Chinese people to be Communists when they don't even know the truth, China is not Communists and was only for around thirty years. There aren't that much difference between what you can do in China and what you can do in America except for voting in a Democratic and Republic manner.

Originally posted by twchang
Isn't ChiCom a short name for Chinese Communist Party? Not every Chinese are ChiCom. But it should be ok if you are refering to CCP.

[edit on 9-12-2004 by twchang]

If you haven't noticed (I don't blame you, it's an 80 page thread), there have been multiple instances where ChiCom was used to describe Chinese in general (including/especially the Chinese on this thread). The context would definitely suggest that it was used as a derogatory term.

Besides, "Jap" is just short for "Japanese". I don't see how that's derogatory if "ChiCom" was used in abundance (even from the moderator himself).

Whether a term is "derogatory" or not is subjective. How can you prove me wrong if I claim that I took offense to the term "ChiCom"?

Whereas, no Japanese poster has posted any complaints at all about ProteinX's use of the term "Jap". Unless, FredT is Japanese himself, I fail to see how he can make such a judgment on something so subjective.

[edit on 9-12-2004 by Nox]

@ COWlan,

I think China and America are the most misunderstood countries in the world.

The only difference is that America has a much stronger media to defend itself with. It's not much different from the Chinese gov't restricting media.

China's gov't restricts media.
America controls media.

Originally posted by proteinx
I think you just twisted the basic fact. It is you want to betray Mainland and cause the hostility between mainland and taiwan. Before 1995, almost everything looks great. Since I was a kid, I was educated as �brothers and sisters in the island�, the island is �best island, or treasure island of Chinese�, since I was in mid school, I was educated as brothers and sister now come back to invest to help us. I was adimring and loving you people and most of us did. However, things become ugly, such ugly once you want to betray this country, most important, I think that is reason I hate you �son * of * bi*� too much is you guys keep trying to make connection with Japs, which rapped China so hard and so pain in not-long ago. Now you naively think once taian get independence, you will not become the �enemy�? The other thing, go to take look at the map, you will understand how important taiwan geograhically important to China or Chinese enemy. Onec Taiwan officially get independent, the door for China to revive basically closed forever, that alone can make you the enemy of China forever. So, please donot twist the basic reason and consequences.

That's a pretty good point. Most of us Americans wouldn't understand China's position right now (... Please, our only neighbors are Canada and Mexico ).
Go American demagogic propaganda!

What you say about Japan hit a nerve. My grandparents from my mother's side lived through that time. Most people in the world only hear of genocide occuring in the Western front.

I guess Asians didn't matter as much back then as Caucasians(discrimination).

Consider that massacres of Chinese civilians by the Japanese during WW2 were common.
I point to the Nanjing Massacre, where literally hundreds of thousands of civilians (no relations with the military) were raped, tortured, and murdered in just weeks. This is just in ONE area!

For some reason, none of this was made as widely public as the atrocities in the European front (You have to admit, there was a fair amount of discrimination against Asians at that time).

Chinese casualties for WW2 (1937-45) are as follows:
Military 3,200,000
Civilian 8,000,000 (more than the number of Jews that were killed by Hitler!)
However, these estimates are a lower bound, since there was never an accurate body count. There could be none, since the Japanese destroyed so much of the evidence. Also, many people died soon after as a result from bio weapons and starvation.

Note: I don't hate the Japanese. I don't even hate the Japanese of that generation. Some of my best friends are Japanese. They are great people, and I love the country of Japan.

I just wanted to say that
I think the Chinese have a right to still fear the Japanese and any relations Taiwan may have with Japan.
I think the Chinese are extremely reasonable about this too. Most people don't even mention it when speaking of modern day Japan (many family and friends respect Japanese hardware and appliances as being superior). I don't see grudges explicitly expressed too often. It must be more of an internal fear.

[edit on 9-12-2004 by Nox]

Jap (unfortunately) is a derogatory term.

It came from WW2 when it was acceptable to de-humanise your enemies.

Is Hun an acceptable term for Germans?

Jap is barely better than Nip, the "'n-word'" word for Japanese.

Brit is not a derogatory term, it's a sign of world knowledge! Proof that the person understands England stops at Hadrian's wall and the Crosses of St Andrew and St Patrick are not on the English flag! Aussie is not a derogatory term, Kiwi is not a derogatory term. Jap is.

Huh!?! Hadn't really thought about whether Chicom was deragatory or not. Given its origin, US military in the cold war, I guess it could be said it BECAME a derogatory term. It would have started because of the US military's mania for acronyms and contractions. (Radar anyone? CENTCOM, RIMPAC, SACEur etc).
I suppose Chicom is the equivalent of Russkie.

Edit: Damn censors! and here I was trying to make a point.

The "" word. Insert something referring to African-Americans.

[edit on 9-12-2004 by HowlrunnerIV]

Seems like China wants to outdo Taiwan in Subs, using their deep financial pockets. they recently bought another bunch of kiloos.....

www.channelnewsasia.com...

We are already better than Taiwan at almost anything militarily or financially

Originally posted by W4rl0rD
We are already better than Taiwan at almost anything militarily or financially

Which unfortunately doesn't really matter, because China's primary goal is to unite with Taiwan, strengthening both countries... not to start a war with Taiwan.

Unfortunately that isn't working. If you knew Chinese history you would know that Taiwan was part of China and it is what it is now because it was left out of the civil war. The Chinese government didn't have anything to cross the straits then.

Originally posted by proteinx

Chinese casualties for WW2 (1937-45) are as follows:
Military 3,200,000
Civilian 8,000,000 (more than the number of Jews that were killed by Hitler!)

[edit on 9-12-2004 by Nox]

The casulty counts are way off. At least 7 million military personels were dead as a results of the war. Civilian is at least twenty million since you've got cities that basically got slaughtered. Japs did all kinds of biological experiments on CHinese people, we have the video of "how long a person can live without its lungs and how long a person would live without their heart." (and yes, I watched them all, the gruesome videos of murdering Chinese people).

300000 People died in one month of the Nan Jing(city) slaughter. There were "contests" between Japanese soldiers to see how many people they can shoot and kill in a minute and I saw the video where they put a person a big rice bag and threw a grenade in the bag and the person inside literally exploded with limbs and intestines all over.

P.S The Chinese population in 1949 was 500 million.

[edit on 9-12-2004 by COWlan]

[edit on 9-12-2004 by COWlan]

COWlan, cut me some slack.

I try to be conservative with my estimates (JUST in case they are inaccurate).

What I presented was a LOWER BOUND estimate (which I pointed out). I just wanted to be safe. I'm sorry that that estimate was low enough to actually offend anyone.