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Can China Invade Taiwan?

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Nox

posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 01:53 PM
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Hehe.

Japanese pop culture and Korean pop culture. You might as well just call it "Western pop culture".

True that there are some minor differences, but they are all pretty much derivatives of American pop culture. American media is simply too powerful and has taken over capitalistic Asian countries. China is one of the exceptions because of its stringent gov't control. Taiwan, Japan, and South Korea are all affected by American consumerism and graphic media.

For example, this link shows that Hong Kong students are more likely to choose pop idols as their idols (even God couldn't top their list). Mainland Chinese are more likely to choose scientists and politicians as their idols.
www.apmforum.com...

I think this is slowly changing.
The Taiwanese value imported clothes from the US over their own.
The Chinese are following in their footsteps. Already, we have many attempts to plagiarize American products (POLO to "POLQ", Ralph Lauren to "Ralph Tauren", "NIKE" to "N1KE"... etc), and we even have smarter consumers who know when the products aren't authentic!

Just look towards Hong Kong. Everyone expected an economic collapse and social upheaval after the Turnover. Nothing traumatic has occurred. My friends in Hong Kong have only complained about subtleties like the Chinese mainland gov't trying hard to replace Hong Kong politicians with their own (which should be expected anyway because China wants to become more involved with its newly acquired city).

EDIT: "students"

[edit on 5-12-2004 by Nox]




posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 01:57 PM
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astral_ice:

I would guess you are from one of the poor arrogant red states.




posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 02:34 PM
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Originally posted by Nox
Hehe.

Japanese pop culture and Korean pop culture. You might as well just call it "Western pop culture".

True that there are some minor differences, but they are all pretty much derivatives of American pop culture.



That is partially true. Although if you look at it closely you will notice that the differences are not minor.

Also, when I refer to culture I am not just talking about Nike and McDonald. There are a tones of other stuff that are very different or similar.

[edit on 5-12-2004 by twchang]


Nox

posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 03:04 PM
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Sure, there are differences. For example, I am under the impression that South Koreans are slightly more Christian than Japanese and Taiwanese.
Japanese films are noticeably more explicit and graphic than Korean... etc etc.

But generally, they all resemble Western pop culture.

The western influence has been there each time America got involved with them. For Japan, it was after WW2. For South Korea, it was after a stable DMZ was formed.

I'm just saying that those countries, despite their dislike for each other (for example, I hear that a lot of Koreans dislike the Japanese), they are similar to each other in comparison with China.

One phenomenon is cultural exchange of pop music. For example, the songs of Korean teen pop sensation Kwon Boa is heard in both Japan AND Taiwan (and managed to stay at the top in Japan for a while, not sure about Taiwan). Japanese, Taiwanese, and Korean are all very prolific when it comes to pop music. I can easily name pop idols from each of those countries (EVEN Hong Kong!, but that's not a country). I won't bother, because I'd just flood this post with a long list. It's extremely difficult to do the same for mainland China (I can MAYBE name one pop band, not even a single idol).

China, as you should all be able to see, is the loner when it comes to modern Pacific pop culture.

I'm just suggesting that China will soon catch up in terms of pop culture and idealogies. Hopefully, when that time comes, will be the time China and Taiwan settle their differences.



posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 03:11 PM
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Originally posted by Daedalus3
Hindi chini bhai-bhai??anybody??


Me



posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 03:34 PM
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Well you know they have a Taiwan Caucus with 132 Congressman in the US Congress , but no ChiCom Caucus in the US Congress !



posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 03:35 PM
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Originally posted by Nox


I'm just suggesting that China will soon catch up in terms of pop culture and idealogies. Hopefully, when that time comes, will be the time China and Taiwan settle their differences.



you can make pop culture very easily in small countries, not easy at all in a large country with 1.3 billion people and 5000 years history.

at the bottom of heart, especially in rural areas, most chinese are still very traditional.

I am not against pop culture.........however, pop culture is just a phenomenon, it shall not be lifted to the national level. That is reason most American try to make a link with Europe whenver they want to talk about real culture things (at least from the american that I know). They know pop culture is nothing worth to talk about in so called up-scale society.......

Same thing for taiwan, korea or japan, they are so small and can so influenced by others........

So, if China does not catch up pop culture, nothing to worry about it.



posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 03:37 PM
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Originally posted by bodebliss
Well you know they have a Taiwan Caucus with 132 Congressman in the US Congress , but no ChiCom Caucus in the US Congress !


and they are doing dog fight like peasant's wife everyday. Yes, we do not have it. what a pity



posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 03:40 PM
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Originally posted by twchang

Originally posted by Nox
Hehe.

Japanese pop culture and Korean pop culture. You might as well just call it "Western pop culture".

True that there are some minor differences, but they are all pretty much derivatives of American pop culture.



That is partially true. Although if you look at it closely you will notice that the differences are not minor.

Also, when I refer to culture I am not just talking about Nike and McDonald. There are a tones of other stuff that are very different or similar.

[edit on 5-12-2004 by twchang]


basically as long as you still speak Chinese and talk about "zhong xiao".
then you are chinese. no matter you want to deny it or not.

read novel "root", you will understand.


Nox

posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 04:06 PM
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I understand perfectly well that rural areas will not be affected by pop culture as much. I understand that China has a greater population, which is why it is not as easily influenced.

China's culture is sturdy because of it. India's is as well. This is why India's own Bollywood is the only film industry that comes even close to rivaling Hollywood.

I'm not suggesting that the change will be immediate. I'm counting on the fact that most politicians are living in or near urban areas, rather than rural ones. Just look at the urban areas. I'm sure you live in or visit China often, since you seem to know a lot about it. I'm sure you've started noticing a trend in public attitude.

I've had conversations with family friends and strangers from large cities like Beijing and Shanghai that speak about an increasing pace and competitiveness in the attitudes of Chinese. Billboards for cosmetics are springing up. A middle class is blooming. Over 200 million people in China own cars today. Mass construction is occuring (partially accounting for increasing oil prices and steel). The pace, the competitiveness is much more capitalist now than it ever was. This is no mere coincidence.

History has taught us that a strong middle class sets the stage for democracy. Aristocrats were overthrown by the bourgeoisie.

I'm considering that, slowly, over time, Chinese and Taiwanese philosophies and political idealogies will coincide, leading to a more peaceful reunion. (Hopefully)

I hope for this because this is the happiest solution for both countries. Taiwanese are finally officially recognized by the (dying :lol
UN. Chinese/Taiwanese as a ethnicity will be internationally recognized as a new power in the world, without question.

I'll then be proud of all aspects of myself (Chinese, Taiwanese, American).



posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 04:16 PM
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Originally posted by Nox
Chinese/Taiwanese as a ethnicity will be internationally recognized as a new power in the world, without question.


I hold some different opinions from yours, but I respect your opinions.

However, I must point out that I think this statement is very dangerous. Going any further with this will result in something that you don't want...ie: WW2 German.

[edit on 5-12-2004 by twchang]


Nox

posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 04:38 PM
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I respect your opinions as well, but I highly disagree with the analogy.

One only needs to look as far as Germany's socio-economic situation before WW2. It made America's own Great Depression look like a quiet moment of sadness.

China's current economy is doing very well. If Taiwan voluntarily accepts, a future reunification with China would only help their pride.

German Nazism was a backlash in response to low self-esteem. Germany needed to start a war to break free, whereas a China/Taiwan would already be free. I'll admit that many people would be frightened by such a situation.

China+Taiwan would be monstrous to many countries and could even eclipse the USA. I may be a nationalist but I wouldn't mind such a shift in power. Perhaps, finally, the negative attention of the world would finally shift from the beloved US and other countries will start realizing the good that America has done for the world rather than just the bad.


Besides that, consider that if Taiwan willingly accepts reunification with China, it would suggest that the Chinese have changed significantly enough to prove that it isn't a threat to humanity. Perhaps by then, China will have become more like a democratic republic, rather than a "socialist" republic.

In that way, I trust in Taiwan to make the right judgment, not a rash one.

[edit on 5-12-2004 by Nox]



posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 04:46 PM
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well, perhaps I am a bit over sensitive here because I studied some info on that topic recently.

I am just thinking feeling pride in ethnicaly sense is pointless and dangerous. Feeling pride in culture, religion or skin color is just not right in my opinion.

Saying that you are Indian, Chinese or Japanese...etc are fine, but feel that you are some how superior because you are Indian, Chinese or Japanese are not so good I think.

[edit on 5-12-2004 by twchang]



posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 05:22 PM
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Originally posted by Nox
I'm not suggesting that the change will be immediate. I'm counting on the fact that most politicians are living in or near urban areas, rather than rural ones. Just look at the urban areas. I'm sure you live in or visit China often, since you seem to know a lot about it. I'm sure you've started noticing a trend in public attitude.


You are certainly wrong and underestimate CCP(I personally think they shall chang the name----in fact, they are thnking about it too).

For most key positions in government, the candidate will be sent to rural areas to practise for several years or even longer to understand the complete picture of China. If they did not do well in these areas, they loose their candidacy.

The current president Hu has been working in Tibet, Gansu for quite a long time before he was pulled back to Beijing.

Donot forget, Chinese have a long history about managing a BIG country in diverse situations. Such strong central contracted power system is not good for democratic, they know, and we all know. But, considering the majority of China still trying hard to find way to setup compatiable democratic system, temporary central power system is not bad at all---------thinking about if we open public election right away, not only we are goging to do the dog fight like those taiwanese politician, but the chaos will be completely uncontrollable with consideration of the size of the population and the size of the territory. That will result endless chaos and crash of the China at this moment........

So, China is improving and will reach the goal, it just takes time. Chinese leaders know how to learn to rule such a big country from history. No other country has such complete history book about government-----if you know that every dynastry in Chinese history need to write down their own history, and we have been doing this for 5000 years. So, there are lots lessons and experiences the leaders can learn. And of course, they will learn from contemperary other nations.








[edit on 5-12-2004 by proteinx]


Nox

posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 05:25 PM
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@ twchang:

Perhaps what I meant to say was "national pride".

However, I didn't want to alienate those Taiwanese who already have national pride.
I understand your fears. You think that any sort of national pride would lead to prejudice against "impure" ethnicities living in China/Taiwan (let's call this future country, Chiwan...
).

My argument against this is that China is already very conciliatory and willing to do a lot for a reunification with Taiwan, if and when it occurs, Chiwanese minorities will have already become an integral part of China. Also, Asian pop cultures will have sufficiently been absorbed by the Taiwanese that it would be considered immature for (let's say...) a Korean Taiwanese to be discriminated against.
I highly doubt mainlander will fly or swim over to Taiwan just to discriminate against a few multi-ethnics.

The same logic can be applied to mainland China. If there is going to be any mass discrimination going on in the mainland of Chiwan, it might as well be happening now. Is there? No. None that I have noticed.

If anything, current discrimination is mostly between Taiwanese and Chinese. It's not between Chiwanese and Caucasians, Chiwanese and other Asians, etc...

For my part, to be honest, not only is the discrimination pretty much singular between Chinese and Taiwanese, it's also quite one-sided. I've seen more discrimination from the Taiwanese side than the Chinese side. When I visit family in China and talk to the Chinese, they rarely make any mention of Taiwan or the Taiwanese. No insults. They tell me they don't have too much of an opinion about it or they haven't heard enough of the situation to form an opinion (which is not laudable... they SHOULD get to know more about the situation, but at least it's understandable).

Most of my Taiwanese friends and family become extremely sensitive when the topic of China and the Chinese is brought up.

I was recently whistling the Chinese National anthem because I heard it during the Olympics and I guess it just stuck in my mind (it was subconscious). Now, I didn't even remember what I was whistling, I was just working with a Taiwanese friend of mine (a good friend mind you). He just suddenly blurts out "DON'T WHISTLE THAT SONG AROUND ME!"

Surprised, I asked him why. He told me it was a corrupt song sung only by corrupt people. He told me this with the full knowledge that a good half of me is Chinese.

WOW. The level of intense disliking seems clearly one sided to me. I told this to Chinese friends and they just say, "oh well". I asked cousins and friends whether they've had similar experiences. They tell me of instances on airplanes (since they don't see Taiwanese very often, that was the only contact they could tell me about), where a few obnoxious Taiwanese (I'm hoping that they were just teenagers) bugging mainlanders (who didn't respond in kind) around them about their superior lifestyle, music, etc...

I have definitely noticed this one-sided superiority complex between Taiwanese and Chinese, and the best justification any Taiwanese friend of mine could give me was, "but it's all true! Our lives ARE better than the Chinese. We live better lives, healthier lives under democracy. And we're NOT brainwashed like the commies!" (I highly disagree with the "not brainwashed" part).

I will agree that the standard of living is higher, but that will not be an issue several years into the future when China becomes economically superior to most countries in the world (including the US would still be an exaggeration though), even in terms of GDP per capita (though it would be dubitable considering the enormous population).

This is not to suggest that people like ProteinX don't exist. Take into account that being on the ATS forums suggests that he has a computer and has time to blow on online forums. This means that he's either a Chinese living in America, an upper-mid class citizen, or an upper class citizen of China. His views don't represent everyone's. His views will be slightly more nationalist/jingoist.

Frankly, with 1.3 billion people, I'm surprised there aren't more people online bashing Taiwan. Certainly not as many as there are sites by Taiwanese, bashing Chinese mainlanders.

I am hoping that this discrimination will hopefully die out slowly if a unification does occur.

[edit on 5-12-2004 by Nox]


Nox

posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 05:40 PM
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Originally posted by proteinx
You are certainly wrong and underestimate CCP(I personally think they shall chang the name----in fact, they are thnking about it too).

For most key positions in government, the candidate will be sent to rural areas to practise for several years or even longer to understand the complete picture of China. If they did not do well in these areas, they loose their candidacy.

The current president Hu has been working in Tibet, Gansu for quite a long time before he was pulled back to Beijing.

Donot forget, Chinese have a long history about managing a country in diverse situations. Such strong central contracted power system is not good for democratic, they know, and we all know. But, considering the majority of China still trying hard to find way to setup compatiable democratic system, temporary central power system is not bad at all---------thinking about if we open public election right away, not only we are goging to do the dog fight like those taiwanese politician, but the chaos will be completely uncontrollable with consideration of the size of the population and the size of the territory. That will result endless chaos and crash of the China at this moment........

So, China is improving and will reach the goal, it just takes time. Chinese leaders know how to learn to rule such a big country from history. No other country has such complete history book about government-----if you know that every dynastry in Chinese history need to write down their own history, and we have been doing this for 5000 years. So, there are lots lessons and experiences the leaders can learn. And of course, they will learn from contemperary other nations.

I'm not criticizing the gov't.
Can't you see I'm one of the few people on this forum that agrees with you when I say that not many gov'ts could have done better for China's immediate problems?
I think it's China's current gov't is good. It's slowly reaching democracy at a stable pace. That's much better than wanton experimentation, instantly shifting to America's democratic republic (something a lot of people seem to suggest).

I think I have repeatedly implied this in my posts.

Now here is where I disagree.
Your argument about a "long history" is irrelevant. Just like arguments using America's history "only one constitutional Amendment every 8 years, blah blah", that one is obsolete. The number of Constitutional Amendments should reflect on a faster changing society. The population growth is real. Social reform acceleration is real.
Linear models, past experiences don't always model the present or future perfectly. History does repeat itself, but it's doing so at a faster rate. The rate is exponential. Social reforms occur very often compared to centuries ago, when it took literally centuries for a middle class to gain power over the upper class.

China can't use its 5000 year old history to its advantage as much as you would like to think. I admit that MANY traditional values will live on for a very long time (strong nuclear family, work ethic, parental responsibilities, education), but social reforms is a reality.

Also, no matter what values are present. Money holds power. Rural areas do not have money. The middle and upper class do. You can't deny that the middle and upperclass live in urban areas (in contrast with America, where the richest live in suburban areas). I'm suggesting that urban areas will have slightly more representation.

Let me rephrase myself to be as agreeable as possible.
With SLOW and GRADUAL change, China's philosophies and socio-economic policies will become agreeable with Taiwan to the point that they may merge without conflict.



posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 05:47 PM
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Originally posted by Nox


This is not to suggest that people like ProteinX don't exist. Take into account that being on the ATS forums suggests that he has a computer and has time to blow on online forums. This means that he's either a Chinese living in America, an upper-mid class citizen, or an upper class citizen of China. His views don't represent everyone's. His views will be slightly more nationalist/jingoist.




there are two roles regarding my post

1> you might heard the words "carrot + stick", in China, we call it "red face and white face". Some people in taiwan, certainly has no idea about what "stick" means, they shall understand there are quite lots nationlists exisiting in China, they keep stimulating mainland, somehow, someday, nationalist could overwhelming mainland, that is not good for mainland. but even worse for those "brainwashed" taiwanese. And China mainland certainlycan recover after the war, but I doubt who will still remember taiwan as wealthy island.

2> You know what, I would consider mysefl more like internationlist, I am a super fan of Clinton. However, internationslist does NOT mean you shall sacrafic the motherland's benefit first. why? human beings have not get that far yet to appreciate your self-secrafice. Moreover, u show weak, good, I am going take advantage of it. So, I get let people know, yeah, we all can leave under peace, but dont be fool and think Chinese appreciation and kindness means other people can do whatever they want. We say it
" get one inch, want one foot" from us.

My self,? I have quite lots pan blue taiwan friends, some of them went back to taiwan already, we still oftenly call each other. When they talk about the "election" in taiwan, they cried over phone. One of them were even beat up by those "little green" tanwanese simple because he spoke madarin-------now, you tell me who is more brainwashed......

so, I consider those who support unity of China as my brothers instead of those who held Japanese LP everyday. For those national traitors, yeah, I will show my strong nationalism attitude. bomb them to hell!!



[edit on 5-12-2004 by proteinx]


Nox

posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 05:53 PM
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Personally, I see nothing wrong with nationalism.

I don't think I should be discriminated for being proud of being an American. I'd be a hypocrite if I criticized anyone else for being a nationalist.

So please don't take any offense to what I said. Take it in context with everything else I've said.



posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 05:59 PM
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Originally posted by Nox


China can't use its 5000 year old history to its advantage as much as you would like to think. I admit that MANY traditional values will live on for a very long time (strong nuclear family, work ethic, parental responsibilities, education), but social reforms is a reality.


I have to inform you human history in 5000 years are evolutionary not revolutionary at all (whose words? I forget).

only power speak.
only self benifit considered.
that is damn cold truth. we all dreaming world peace. sorry, not yet.
5000 years, just like yesterday.



posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 06:02 PM
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Originally posted by Nox

Let me rephrase myself to be as agreeable as possible.
With SLOW and GRADUAL change, China's philosophies and socio-economic policies will become agreeable with Taiwan to the point that they may merge without conflict.



before brainwashed taiwanese just like bodebliss to stimulate mainland Chinese take action.




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