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Can China Invade Taiwan?

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posted on Nov, 28 2004 @ 01:40 PM
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Hawksss,
The plane was outside China's territory .

China broke international law. This is nothing new, is it?

The US forgave you for your misstep. All is better , now.


[edit on 11/28/2004 by bodebliss]




posted on Nov, 28 2004 @ 01:41 PM
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Ok, Fred, I will refrain to insults if the indians stop calling us chicoms etc.. thanks!



posted on Nov, 28 2004 @ 01:47 PM
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sorry no more off topic remarks



posted on Nov, 28 2004 @ 01:48 PM
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[edit on 28-11-2004 by proteinx]



posted on Nov, 28 2004 @ 01:52 PM
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"The US forgave you for your misstep. All is better , now"

LoL. I sure remember the US begging us to return the crew and the EP-3 was taken apart and shipped back to the US .lol

BTW, that's right, the two planes collided in international air so we could fly their too. But, you know what, we had to take it down to sent the americans a signal: don't mess with us so frigging close to our territory.



posted on Nov, 28 2004 @ 01:52 PM
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Originally posted by Daedalus3
And what lab do you work in? Why won't you tell me..what do you do..how old are you??


I am working on a lab called "why indian like to be slaved for 400 years and were happy about that--------from the genetic point of view"

get it? you will see a paper published later about this.



posted on Nov, 28 2004 @ 02:03 PM
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China cannot possibly take Taiwan and they know it.

They might get the 1st strike force onto the beaches but their supply lines would be cut. The soldiers left on the beaches would face serious concentrations of Taiwanese forces within 6-8 hours.

PATRIOT ADA batteries (I have personal experience in firing / working with these) would sweep the skies of Chinese MIGS and support craft. Pre-set artillery would rain down on the poor Chinese as their navy struggled to support the landing.

Ever actually participate in an amphibious assault? Ever run in the hip deep water while sand screws everything up and ˝ your force is bogged down due to SNAFU’s and other screw ups?

On Normandy beach we succeeded only because our destroyers came within 100-200 meters of the beach (risking grounding the ships or tearing their keels out) and fired point blank into defending German position for HOURS (read the history on that landing, we were lucky to take that beach) and the Germans didn’t reinforce for days.

Invading Taiwan would be 5-6 times more difficult and China does not have an trained amphibious assault force capable of such an operation. If they lose 20-30% of their lift capacity, a SURE number, then they cannot re-supply faster than the Taiwanese.

Their 800+ missiles are really tactically worthless. They will cause damage to infrastructure but they have no hope of actually inflicting enough loses to stop the massed Taiwan infantry.

It would be a political disaster of unmanageable disaster. Can you imagine the loss of face when Taiwan starts to show THOUSANDS of captured Chinese POW’s and the western media shows pictures of the indiscriminate damage China’s medium range missiles did to civilian targets?

For those of you referring to the Taiwanese exercise where their forces lost in just a few days, please keep in mind they assumed that China had 100% surprise and were 100% effective in every action they took AND the Taiwanese were only 10-20% effective in all actions they took. That will not happen in a real battle.

No China must find a political solution to Taiwan, they really don’t have any other choice.

And with a stronger Russia and India on their border and an isolated Pakistani alley and a Japan that is starting to rearm they better do it quickly.

China is in a dangerous time, they have provoked the region but to not have a military capability to project meaningful force. This means their raw materials are easily cut off during any world-wide crisis, which means they will quickly lose any prolonged conflict.

Better China concentrates on fixing their political issues than worries about military might. Otherwise that tiger they are riding will turn on them.



posted on Nov, 28 2004 @ 02:21 PM
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As always, we want to find a peaceful resolution for the taiwan problem. But, if Chen SB ever dares declare independence against the will of 1.3 chinese and most of the world's governments including US, then we will have no other recourse.

Don't forget, taiwan is very close to the mainland. Not only we have a lot more than 800 missiles (where did you get that figure???), we now have guns that can reach taiwan directly. It is not going to be an amphibious assult first, it would be continued bombardment and missile attacks which will break the wills of the population of taiwan. BTW, we have many Sus, not just Migs. We will also first start by knocking out their ant-air batteries first. Believe, with the kind of mutual traffic between taiwan and the mainland, we would know exactly where those batteriers are located.

As with Russia, we have just settled our border disputes. India, please don't kid me. Japan and US will risk MAD if dare come in. Hitting japan would not be hard at all. While the US is so tied up in iraq, assuming Iran and N. Korea, I don't see them come in.

We already know that it will be a political disasters, but for our national integrity, we have to do this just like Lincoln did during the civil war.



posted on Nov, 28 2004 @ 02:59 PM
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I heard the Chinese military is planning assassinations. Its basically send a few elite snipers as migrants and shoot Chen SB and his close supporters. China will be extremely happy if Japan intervenes because then we'll have an excuse to pay them back for what they did to us in WWII.

Taiwan was showing off their PAC-2 bases a few days ago, the location was even shown to public. A balistic missile can and will take it out easily. DO you really think we are gonna use the J-7, 6, 8s over Taiwan? What do you think the Su's, the J-10s are for huh? The Su-30s would be launching sunburns which can shoot across the entire strait and Taiwan has absolutely no way of defending against it. Even the US only have the ESSM which is still under R&D.



posted on Nov, 28 2004 @ 03:13 PM
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Originally posted by Hawkssss
As always, we want to find a peaceful resolution for the taiwan problem. But, if Chen SB ever dares declare independence against the will of 1.3 chinese and most of the world's governments including US, then we will have no other recourse.

Don't forget, taiwan is very close to the mainland. Not only we have a lot more than 800 missiles (where did you get that figure???), we now have guns that can reach taiwan directly. It is not going to be an amphibious assult first, it would be continued bombardment and missile attacks which will break the wills of the population of taiwan. BTW, we have many Sus, not just Migs. We will also first start by knocking out their ant-air batteries first. Believe, with the kind of mutual traffic between taiwan and the mainland, we would know exactly where those batteriers are located.

As with Russia, we have just settled our border disputes. India, please don't kid me. Japan and US will risk MAD if dare come in. Hitting japan would not be hard at all. While the US is so tied up in iraq, assuming Iran and N. Korea, I don't see them come in.

We already know that it will be a political disasters, but for our national integrity, we have to do this just like Lincoln did during the civil war.


Let’s address each of your issues:

1 – Taiwan IS independent of China. This is the fact China does not want to face. As long as China is communist they will never have a chance to unify with Taiwan. Look at what they are doing to Hong-Kong. That is Taiwan’s lesson never to trust the current Chinese government.

2 – It’s not that close. You can’t walk between them. Also, than means supply route will be exposed to all kinds of nasty things that Taiwan can deploy very easily.

3 – Guns hitting Taiwan are expensive to put together and have limited capability. Artillery is only tactically useful if your troops can call it in effectively. This is not likely to happen.

4 – Artillery has never broken the will of a determined enemy in the history of warfare. Somehow China’s artillery must be different. I got 800 missiles from a recent pentagon report, I can Google it if you like. The point is it would not matter if you had 1600 missiles it’s not enough.

5 – Patriot has a LOT more capability that we have shown. For instance, did you know it can target your ships out at sea very easily? It can do this a LOT farther than you might imagine, like inside your ports right now. It has a much longer range than we have shown and it can handle anything in the Chinese Air-Force with ease. It is also very mobile, so your artillery and missiles have little effect after a first strike. Personally, I think one Patriot battery might be worth 20-30 aircraft.

As an aside, we used to practice shooting down enemy aircraft on their own runways with the old Patriot systems…I can’t imagine what they can do now.

6 – MAD? Are you serious? The only country that would be wiped out in a nuclear exchange between China and the U.S. would be China. Seriously. China could nuke our western seaboard, which would hurt even cripple us for 40-50 years but China would receive a rain of 20,000 nuclear warheads in response. Imagine that if you will. Every city, every village, every cross-road, every sea-port, every rice-paddy, and every military base in your country would be hit AT THE SAME TIME. China would experience an extinction event. It would not be war, it would be the end of a people. There is no MAD here, just the death of a very ancient people if China wants to play that game.

7 – India has nukes, so China cannot take them lightly. I will not attempt to discuss conventional forces between the two here.

8 – Hit Japan? At the same time you are hitting Taiwan? Not unless the Chinese government had a real death wish. See point 6 above. Japan has a very capable navy, air defense and air force. While small, it is easy to repel anything that china could afford to throw its way. Also, once China stirs that hornets nest they will have a MAJOR war on their hands…not something I think they want to consider.

9 – American forces are not nearly as stretched as you might believe. We have as much force sitting in the Pacific rim right this minute that we have in Iraq / Middle east. We have 11 carrier groups, of which 2-3 are in the pacific right now. 2-3 carrier groups would be enough to engage the entire current Chinese navy / air force and win. We could have 2-3 more in the area in a week.

I state again, the Chinese government knows it has no hope of forcefully reuniting Taiwan and must come to terms politically.

What is happening is that the Chinese government is trying to get off the tiger (the Chinese military) as gingerly as possible. The Chinese military is trying to create a regional conflict it thinks it can control and win so it can establish China as a regional homogeny and world power.

It will be interesting to see what really happens.



posted on Nov, 28 2004 @ 03:22 PM
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Originally posted by bodebliss
Panama fought Columbia for a quasi-independence , but was under US control. Panama did not have to fight the US for freedom. We just just said ,'ok ,go ahead and later threw in the canal for good measure.

Mongolia did not have to fight Russia for eventual freedom .It was given them.

Japan was defeated in WWII , but it did not have to fight the US for freedom after WWII .Freedom was given to them.

AT the end of the Korean war the South Koreans did not have to fight US forces for their freedom . Freedom was given to them.

I'm now waiting for the CCP to give freedom to China!


Obviously US have a lot of military bases in Panama, and it's basically under American domination. Mongolia was SUPPORTED by USSR to separate from China, and turned into a Soviet-satellitized country

Japan was defeated because it was the madman invading all Asia, including China and Taiwan... All these countries fought with US against Japan and won... What doesn't means it belongs to US

And about SK, US was helping them to fight against the Commies, and not trying to conquer it... Even so, they left bases there


CCP is the Chinese government, China is still free



posted on Nov, 28 2004 @ 03:26 PM
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Let’s address each of your issues:

1 – Taiwan IS independent of China. This is the fact China does not want to face. As long as China is communist they will never have a chance to unify with Taiwan. Look at what they are doing to Hong-Kong. That is Taiwan’s lesson never to trust the current Chinese government.
>Taiwan is not an independent country and is so recognized by UN and the rest of the world. Hong Kong is doing very well; in fact still one of the best places to do business and the financial center in pacific outside of japan. If you still believe china is communist, you are way brainwashed.

You really know practically nothing about the taiwan issue, yet you dare speak. BTW, taiwan's official name is the Republic of China. Does that shock you???

2 – It’s not that close. You can’t walk between them. Also, than means supply route will be exposed to all kinds of nasty things that Taiwan can deploy very easily.
>Yes, it is very close because some of our latest artillery can even reach taiwan and we have many nasty stuff as well.

3 – Guns hitting Taiwan are expensive to put together and have limited capability. Artillery is only tactically useful if your troops can call it in effectively. This is not likely to happen.
>This has already been made and it sure is cheaper than missiles.

4 – Artillery has never broken the will of a determined enemy in the history of warfare. Somehow China’s artillery must be different. I got 800 missiles from a recent pentagon report, I can Google it if you like. The point is it would not matter if you had 1600 missiles it’s not enough.
>Artillery is but one of many things we can througt at them. The US didn't know we had the Yuan subs before we unveiled it and it was a huge surprise. This shows you how reliable pentagon reports are.

5 – Patriot has a LOT more capability that we have shown. For instance, did you know it can target your ships out at sea very easily? It can do this a LOT farther than you might imagine, like inside your ports right now. It has a much longer range than we have shown and it can handle anything in the Chinese Air-Force with ease. It is also very mobile, so your artillery and missiles have little effect after a first strike. Personally, I think one Patriot battery might be worth 20-30 aircraft.
>Why don't you show me an article that says 1 patriot=20, 30 planes. I guess you didn't know we have a lot of Su27/30s and J10s. BTW, like I said, we will knock it out first if anything happens. The fact that taiwan is so close, we don't even need the best airplanes.

As an aside, we used to practice shooting down enemy aircraft on their own runways with the old Patriot systems…I can’t imagine what they can do now.

>Show me the source.

6 – MAD? Are you serious? The only country that would be wiped out in a nuclear exchange between China and the U.S. would be China. Seriously. China could nuke our western seaboard, which would hurt even cripple us for 40-50 years but China would receive a rain of 20,000 nuclear warheads in response. Imagine that if you will. Every city, every village, every cross-road, every sea-port, every rice-paddy, and every military base in your country would be hit AT THE SAME TIME. China would experience an extinction event. It would not be war, it would be the end of a people. There is no MAD here, just the death of a very ancient people if China wants to play that game.

>You are one funny chap. with 20000 nukes, the world is gone which includes the US. That's why it is called MAD.

7 – India has nukes, so China cannot take them lightly. I will not attempt to discuss conventional forces between the two here.

>So, we have nukes too.
8 – Hit Japan? At the same time you are hitting Taiwan? Not unless the Chinese government had a real death wish. See point 6 above. Japan has a very capable navy, air defense and air force. While small, it is easy to repel anything that china could afford to throw its way. Also, once China stirs that hornets nest they will have a MAJOR war on their hands…not something I think they want to consider.

>All we need is to nuke them. They would attack us unless they want a death wish themselves
9 – American forces are not nearly as stretched as you might believe. We have as much force sitting in the Pacific rim right this minute that we have in Iraq / Middle east. We have 11 carrier groups, of which 2-3 are in the pacific right now. 2-3 carrier groups would be enough to engage the entire current Chinese navy / air force and win. We could have 2-3 more in the area in a week.

>Oh, believe me, the US will think twice before going to war with China again and you are seriously streched at the moment becasue we can neutralize whatever you have in the pacific.


I state again, the Chinese government knows it has no hope of forcefully reuniting Taiwan and must come to terms politically.

What is happening is that the Chinese government is trying to get off the tiger (the Chinese military) as gingerly as possible. The Chinese military is trying to create a regional conflict it thinks it can control and win so it can establish China as a regional homogeny and world power.

It will be interesting to see what really happens.



>I state again, that the chinesee government and chinese people are determined to unify taiwan peacefully, and forcefully if necessary and we have what it takes to get the job done.

I don't think we will see it happen because it will be a peaceful unification and I find it preposterous that you find it interesting to see what will happen.


[edit on 28-11-2004 by Hawkssss]



posted on Nov, 28 2004 @ 03:39 PM
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Originally posted by MrNice
6 – MAD? Are you serious? The only country that would be wiped out in a nuclear exchange between China and the U.S. would be China. Seriously. China could nuke our western seaboard, which would hurt even cripple us for 40-50 years but China would receive a rain of 20,000 nuclear warheads in response. Imagine that if you will. Every city, every village, every cross-road, every sea-port, every rice-paddy, and every military base in your country would be hit AT THE SAME TIME. China would experience an extinction event. It would not be war, it would be the end of a people. There is no MAD here, just the death of a very ancient people if China wants to play that game.

9 – American forces are not nearly as stretched as you might believe. We have as much force sitting in the Pacific rim right this minute that we have in Iraq / Middle east. We have 11 carrier groups, of which 2-3 are in the pacific right now. 2-3 carrier groups would be enough to engage the entire current Chinese navy / air force and win. We could have 2-3 more in the area in a week.



You tell'm Mr Nice

China Vs America
They'll be dust before a nuke even reaches our continent!Also with our missile sheild they have a- NO WAY IN HELL - chance!
I doubt that they can reach our western sea board though! some one post some link on that capability!

Stretched thin?
American forces!
with bases in S.korea and Japan and Phillipines and hawai and midway and deigo garcia and.....i'm getting tired

Seriously people do you come up with stuff or is it common lore in china! Should write a book called -"1001 chinese nights" with this sort of stuff


Keep them comming folks , keep them comming!



posted on Nov, 28 2004 @ 03:48 PM
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well, people say things becasue those are the truth that you don't see. Example, Iraq. Didn't the world tell you not to do that and what a mess it is now.

Back to the topic, first your missile defense system doesn't work. Even if it does, it is not fool-prove. If China is determined to risk MAD with the US, we will. Remember we had our first nuke in 1964, 40 years ago and we have just sent a man into space. So you'd better believe that we can deliver nukes to wherever we want on the planet earth. BTW, unknown numbers of our 093 SSN and 094 SSBNs are being deployed. 094 carries 16 JL-2 missiles which has a range of at least 8000 miles.



posted on Nov, 28 2004 @ 03:54 PM
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Missile defense system is reliant on your satellite system and take a look at what we are doing here with ASAT. See, if you have a weapon, there would be a counter-weapon. This is how the human race works.

www.ucsusa.org...

Gregory Kulacki and David Wright
16 August 2004

Full text of the report (PDF)

Both the 2003 and 2004 editions of the U.S. Pentagon's Annual Report on the Military Power of the People's Republic of China cite a January 2001 Hong Kong newspaper article that claims China has developed and tested an advanced anti-satellite (ASAT) system. This ASAT is described as a "parasitic microsatellite," that is, a small satellite that attaches itself to a larger satellite to disrupt or destroy the larger satellite on command.

The existence of such a system is clearly an important issue to the U.S. military and the Congress.

Yet an examination of the January 2001 newspaper story, which is the only source the Pentagon report gives for this claim, casts strong doubts on the credibility of the story.

We do not take a position on whether or not China might be developing such a weapon. However, the Pentagon's continued use of this article raises important issues about the quality of information that is being presented to Congress and the public on this and other issues. Such concerns are especially relevant given recent revelations about intelligence failures and the implications such failures can have.



posted on Nov, 28 2004 @ 04:03 PM
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Originally posted by Hawkssss

first your missile defense system doesn't work. Even if it does, it is not fool-prove.If China is determined to risk MAD with the US, we will. Remember we had our first nuke in 1964, 40 years ago and we have just sent a man into space. So you'd better believe that we can deliver nukes to wherever we want on the planet earth

This is killer

So you guys are going to try [ if you want ] to nuke america because
you sent a guy to space yesterday and blew a nuke test in '64
. Wow this is amazing ! really ,guys went to space that's cool !
really I mean it and even managed to try a nuke in '64
Cool! very good!
So you are going to send a man to space to drop a nuke on america from space! Cool!

Tell me when did you guys first start eating at Mc Donalds, you should add that to the list above also pretty impressive!


I can't respond sorry, my stomach hurts!! till later - Keep posting this is hillarious
- i mean it.



posted on Nov, 28 2004 @ 04:05 PM
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www.nti.org...

U.S. Missile Defense Can be Fooled by Decoys, Documents Say

From Wednesday, September 29, 2004 issue.

By David Ruppe
Global Security Newswire



WASHINGTON — Documents published by the U.S. Missile Defense Agency over the past two years appear to confirm what experts have charged is a fundamental flaw of the national missile defense system the Bush administration plans to make operational in Alaska this year (see GSN, Sept. 22).


**mod edit: do not copy-paste entire news articles.**

[edit on 28-11-2004 by Banshee]



posted on Nov, 28 2004 @ 04:14 PM
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Actually, I had a big MaC yesterday and it is really making american fatter and dumber. So much for your pride.

putting a man into space means that we have the capability to deliver nuke warheads anywhere in the world. BTW, have you read the two articles I posted.??? Laugh after you read them. ok? lol



posted on Nov, 28 2004 @ 04:15 PM
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20000 nukes ha
America doesn't even have half of that. Lets say that many nukes hit China, the result is the whole world's dead from nuclear winter.



posted on Nov, 28 2004 @ 04:19 PM
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yeah, but the smart americans don't get it because they thought only the targets will be destroied. lol See, that's why they should stop eating big Mac.



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