Can China Invade Taiwan?

Unification is a foggy word, do you mean the nationalists in Taiwan want to reclaim mainland as unification? Or they think unification as China takes over Taiwan as a province?

Taiwan is not officially declare independence (otherwise it is already under siege and been taken over by the Chinese), it is not a country, as simple as that.

Originally posted by twchang

If you live in Taiwan, you will know that most people who want unification are the old Nationalists who retreat from China and occupy Taiwan. They have a tie with China and are heavily brain washed by Nationalists. They are similar to the loyalists during Independence war in America, but brain washed. A lot of their children now are holding different point of view, though.

Also, a lot of people want to keep status quo because they are affraid of war. And some people, like my old man, just think that the status quo is that Taiwan is an independent country.

[edit on 18-11-2004 by twchang]

Originally posted by plutonian
Unification is a foggy word, do you mean the nationalists in Taiwan want to reclaim mainland as unification? Or they think unification as China takes over Taiwan as a province?

Taiwan is not officially declare independence (otherwise it is already under siege and been taken over by the Chinese), it is not a country, as simple as that.

Unification as in China taking over Taiwan as a province or special territory.

Well, then what is Taiwan? A renegated province as claimed by PRC?

It really depends on your point of view. For me, if I just look at it from a factual view, not from politics, not from officials, not from anything else, just the fact, then I see Taiwan as a country.


[edit on 18-11-2004 by twchang]

Originally posted by plutonian
Taiwan is not officially declare independence (otherwise it is already under siege and been taken over by the Chinese), it is not a country, as simple as that.

The Korean War isn't officially over either, you don't see people racing to Korea to shoot at the DRK.

Facts speak for themselves. The Taiwanese elect their own government, no policy followed in Taiwan is set in Beijing. No governors are appointed by Beijing, no PLA boys are based in Taiwan, no income tax is paid to Beijing. Taiwan has its own flag and constitution, its own defence forces, its own currency, its own Foreign Affairs Ministry etc. What is that if it isn't soveriegn nationhood?

Taiwan has their own government,own military,own everything,they do not have to give or listen to Mainland China,but they are not really a country/nation which is independent;meaning they are not recognized as a nation,but also not as a province in China.

Originally posted by Hawkssss
yeah, right. Why don't you show me historical evidence that Taiwan was ever a country???

Secondly, show me that the people of Taiwan unanimously support independence. Evidence shows that 15% hardcore support independence adn 15% support unification while the rest simply want status quo.

Your numbers are way off, Hawkssss. That's what happens when you live in the past. Taiwan is moving forward. You should try to keep up w/ the times.
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Opinion poll
Independence support up
Twenty-one percent of Taiwanese support immediate independence for Taiwan, more than double the number in 2000 when the Democratic Progressive Party came to power, a public opinion poll showed yesterday. The increase in support for immediate independence from 8 percent in 2000 to 21 percent shows the intensification of the separatist consciousness in Taiwan, the United Daily News, which conducted the survey, said. The survey also showed support for maintaining Taiwan's status quo remains unchanged at 36 percent. The telephone poll of 942 adults showed that while more Taiwanese back immediate independence, fewer people back gradual independence -- 10 percent compared with 16 percent in 2000. Fewer people also back immediate or gradual reunification with China -- 6 percent compared with 9 percent in 2000 for immediate reunification, and 11 percent compared with 18 percent in 2000 for gradual reunification.

www.taipeitimes.com...
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Survey backs sovereign and independent Taiwan.
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National identity growing
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The Cabinet gives Ma a history class

The problem w/ the china supporters here is they use the traitorous words of Chinese Nationalist Party(KMT) to further their arguments.

Looky Here: a communique is a statement not a treaty.

The Cairo declaration was a declaration of intent, never acted upon.

I could communicate a declaration of a claim to all the gold on all the oceans of the world's floors, but it would negated by the world.

The KMT is fighting the majority's desire for freedom from oppression in Taiwan because they have perpetrated murder, theft, corruption, and deceit on the Taiwnese people and are afraid of being brought to justice.

This is why the CCP dictators are training the sights of the PLA and the CCP cadres on the fun loving, peace loving people of free Taiwan.

First: It's easy to attack a little island.

Second: The dictators fear they will be the next to fall under the guillotine. So of course they're fighting Taiwan Freedom!

Third: The CCP would like to try to ransack Taiwan as the KMT bandits have done.

Once a thief always a thief.

The china supporters are unwitting pawns in a game of theft and murder.
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Hawksss,
You were supposed to come here and DENY IGNORANCE.

You've failed!

Bode



[edit on 11/18/2004 by bodebliss]

Taiwan is rewriting history books to reflect truth, not KMT lies and fairy tales.

New school textbooks will simply tell the truth

It's about time!

Bode

Thanks for clearing it up for me.

It is a civil war needs yet to be ended, Taiwan didn't declare independence all these years because they think the claimed all the wealth from China and was able to conquer mainland and get back as a legit government, now it has become their burden and nightmare.

Have your own point of view is good, I do too, but remember not to blind yourself from the truth.

Try this:
How do you define a killer?
A:Who you think is a killer.
B:Who has killed.
C:Whom is decided as a killer by the supreme court.
D:Who is in prison for killing.

If you can't seem to find the correct answer, my signature is a hint.

Originally posted by twchang

Unification as in China taking over Taiwan as a province or special territory.

Well, then what is Taiwan? A renegated province as claimed by PRC?

It really depends on your point of view. For me, if I just look at it from a factual view, not from politics, not from officials, not from anything else, just the fact, then I see Taiwan as a country.

[edit on 18-11-2004 by twchang]

[edit on 18-11-2004 by plutonian]

Originally posted by plutonian
It is a civil war needs yet to be ended, Taiwan didn't declare independence all these years because they think the claimed all the wealth from China and was able to conquer mainland and get back as a legit government, now it has become their burden and nightmare.
[edit on 18-11-2004 by plutonian]

You are partially correct, but:
1. Back then, Taiwan was under the marshal law of the old Nationalists (KMT) after KMT occupy Taiwan. The old Nationalists that retreat to Taiwan indeed want to get back and reclaim China (and Mangolia, perhaps). So it was the old Nationalists who wants to do this, not Taiwan as a whole.
2. Back then, China does not have much wealth actually. The low ranking Nationalists want to go back simply because that is where they were born, and because of their loyalty to the Nationalists. It was the high ranking Nationalists that want to go back for the wealth and power. Also, in a pure ideological point of view....the Nationalists simply don't think Communism will work, and they think they are the one that can bring China to a better future. Unfortunately, the Nationalists are quite corrupted, that is why they lost the war against the communists. It is just one of the typical story during the cold war...
3. The high ranking Nationalists soon realize that reconquering China is not possible, but they still insist on keeping the policy as a "fantasy", a dream sort of, for keeping the low ranking Nationalists in control, and in part, keeping the people in Taiwan in control. This fact can be seen from various conversations in meeting between high level Nationalists in the past that are now declassified.
4. Now the Nationalists are not in control anymore. They are now a party in the political system. They are not the same Nationalists in the past. They still have some burden to sort out, as mentioned by you. Hopefully they will become a normal political party soon.
5. So in a sense, the civil war between the Communists and the Nationalists is over, because the Nationalists is no longer just a dictator and no longer have an army. The defense force belongs to Taiwan as a whole, not the Nationalists.


[edit on 18-11-2004 by twchang]

[edit on 18-11-2004 by twchang]

bodebliss, might I tell you that A LOT has happened since the year 2000. Chen was ALMOST dropped as president and things like that. If a person wanted to shoot the president, YOU SHOOT TO KILL, if you miss, SHOOT AGAIN. But what happened was well, he shot once, missed the right spot and left. There are serious problems in the logic of this assassination.

didnt this thread die months ago?

Originally posted by COWlan
bodebliss, might I tell you that A LOT has happened since the year 2000. Chen was ALMOST dropped as president and things like that. If a person wanted to shoot the president, YOU SHOOT TO KILL, if you miss, SHOOT AGAIN. But what happened was well, he shot once, missed the right spot and left. There are serious problems in the logic of this assassination.

hehehe...allow me to interrupt.

After Nationalists lost its power in 2000, some of the older Nationalists just still can't let go. That is why all the stupid and funny stuff like that. And people in Taiwan has punish them during election. The support for KMT has decreased every year. Hopefully, they will wake up, otherwise, they will just get less and less support.

It was 2 shots, not one. But we can talk about this issue and go way off topic and still comes to no conclusion. Because they are still investigating it. And so far the investigator thinks it was shoot to kill. But then you won't believe it and come out with all the conspiracy theory, like some people in KMT do. ..

What he said was right, it is still a conspiracy right now but pull away for a minute right now. Say you are a assassin who's mission is to pull the trigger on Chen, you are already close to him, you fire a shot and you missed, you fired another shot and you failed to kill him, is it not your job to pull the trigger again and finish the job? Or did the gun simply only had two bullets in there? OR Chen set up this assassination to obtain pity votes?

Ok,COWlan,

Let's say I'm the shooter, I shoot at the President and I don't see him go down. I used the cover of fireworks to shoot.

Do I risk a third shot and get caught and it's found out I am a gangster hired by the KMT or China, or do I slip away and tell my masters Chen is impervious to bullets of any kind ?

This is of course right before my masters kill me for failure and also to hide the trail that leads directly to Lien or Hu.

Notes:

* Daedalus is a blind/stupid nationalist
* The US is likely giving China green light to invade Taiwan (remember what Mr. Powell said)

Just a friendly reminder from the neighborhood Mod, please keep on topic and skip the personal attacks and insults.

Thanks.
FredT

Originally posted by poirot
Notes:

* Daedalus is a blind/stupid nationalist
* The US is likely giving China green light to invade Taiwan (remember what Mr. Powell said)

Haha, and why do you say that? Back all posts up with links !!


Also guess what happened to Powell!! He spoke out of turn too many times i guess, this being one of them...

Actually the only post ive posted on this thread for a long time was this one:

quote: Originally posted by Hawkssss
Kashmiris are proud inidans??? This is really funny and is that why they keep killing indians and attack your partliament in your capital??? What about the northeast region where the mongloids people are revolting agatinst indian landgrabbing and aggression for years. Hum, also the Khalistan problem is still well live. What about the dalits, aka untouchables who are converting to muslims and christians in mass due to ill-treatment by the 3% of Brahmins which you must have been. Funny, you are making india appear to be the only heaven on earth while chinese is twice richer and live 10 years longer than an indian on average.

Well let's see how our indian friend spin this website and it seems we chinese are small potatos compared with the kind of atrocities committed by the peace-loving indians.

Mass Murder in Kashmir

"Whether or not one agrees with President Clinton's policy in Kosovo, we went there to stop the `ethnic cleansing' of the Kosovars by the Serbian government. Yet we have averted our glance from a similar campaign throughout India , a situation the Indian Supreme Court described as `worse than a genocide.' This ethnic cleansing has taken the lives of over 250,000 Sikhs since 1984, over 200,000 Christians in Nagaland since 1947, over 60,000 Muslims in Kashmir since 1988, and thousands upon thousands of Dalits, Assamese, Manipuris, Tamils, and other minority peoples."

indianterrorism.bravepages.com...

[edit on 14-11-2004 by Hawkssss]

Umm...I dont want to go off topic again but I was reading this post again when I somethign dawned upon me....

You say that India is carrying out ethnic cleansing an opressing the minority community right?
Well chack this out commie:

Our Prime Minister Dr. Manmohan Singh is a Sikh!!
Our President Dr. A.P.J. Kalam is a Muslim!!.
And the most powerful political personality in the country now who is rumored to possess the "reins" of the government in power,
Sonia Gandhi is of foreign origin( Italy) an is a Christian!!

Not a single Hindu up there!! Thats the power of democracy.
The will of the many can overcome the albeit loud rantings of the the few religious fanatics, which ever religion they may be from..

I doubt China, even the US, can ever exhibit such unity in diversity esp. at the political level.

Now is there somethnig stupi/nationalistic about that?!!

[edit on 19-11-2004 by Daedalus3]

i thought we had agreed that china doesnt have the military transport to attack taiwan but has the air and missile power to wipe them out.
the US could save taiwan by setting up 4 carriers around taiwan and it could destroy any attempt at the island BUUUT the chinese can defend thier land by using SAM's because of the sheer number and them being quite good.

Originally posted by devilwasp
i thought we had agreed that china doesnt have the military transport to attack taiwan but has the air and missile power to wipe them out.
the US could save taiwan by setting up 4 carriers around taiwan and it could destroy any attempt at the island BUUUT the chinese can defend thier land by using SAM's because of the sheer number and them being quite good.

Yes...all the military analysis has probably been discussed, although different people will hold different opinion on the out come or the tactics depending on the intelligence information they have. For example, I don't think China can wipe out Taiwan with air and missile power yet. And I think if US is going to help...only needs 2 aircraft carriers, plus destroyers, cruisers with mid range missiles, and fighters, bombers from Okinawa and other islands near the area.

But then we start discussing the determination of China, Taiwan, US...etc, which is important since it effects the military morale. And some how we went way off topic on discussing histories and detail political news....


[edit on 19-11-2004 by twchang]

[edit on 19-11-2004 by twchang]

Sorry to go way off topic, but just have to say a few things about the shooting so people won't generate some conspiracy that are ridiculous.

The ballistic trajectories of the shot were messured by the investigators. The second shot was fired when the vehicle is about to pass the area in whch the assassin stands. Therefore, the 3rd shot attemp is difficult since the vehicle already passed. Also, as mentioned before, the assassin has to think of his/her own safety.

Also, think about this: If you are not a supporter of Chen, will you give him the pity vote??? or will you still be doubtful and confused right after the shooting when no detail investigation has started yet? So, in my opinion, Chen shooting himself if very, very unlikely because the effect of the shooting won't win him votes. Plus, the investigator has pointed out that the shots are aimed for kill. Also, even if you can hire a super sharp shooter, will you really alllow him to shoot you so you can become a servent of the people??

Anyway, this event will be recorded as one of the dark history in Taiwan. And if it was found that Chen has lie to people in Taiwan, which I think is very, very unlikely, necessary action will be taken.


[edit on 19-11-2004 by twchang]