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Can China Invade Taiwan?

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posted on Sep, 9 2004 @ 05:56 PM
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Originally posted by zcheng


You obviously have absolutely no knowledge of ethnic composition of people in Taiwan. Taiwanese is the word for including all people living in Taiwan. It is not a name of nationality. Please familiar with yourself with that by following link from Taiwan government:
www.gio.gov.tw...

The Han form the largest ethnic group in Taiwan, making up roughly 98 percent of the population; 15 percent of this group came to Taiwan after 1945. Taiwan's population also consists of almost 60 other non-Han minorities.

yes but they HAVE chosen thier nationalilty by liveing there and becomeing a citizen there, no matter what thier previos one was.




posted on Sep, 9 2004 @ 06:03 PM
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Originally posted by devilwasp
yes but they HAVE chosen thier nationalilty by liveing there and becomeing a citizen there, no matter what thier previos one was.


If you live in london, you become a citizen of London, not a citizen of London as a nation. You are a scotish, does that mean Scotland is a independence nation?

Those living in Taiwan are citizens of "Republic of China" as its constitution declares.



posted on Sep, 9 2004 @ 06:15 PM
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Originally posted by zcheng


If you live in london, you become a citizen of London, not a citizen of London as a nation. You are a scotish, does that mean Scotland is a independence nation?

Those living in Taiwan are citizens of "Republic of China" as its constitution declares.

actually your a citizen of great britain,under the jurisdiction of the london council, aka your a citizen of london but your really a citzen of britain.
yes i am scottish and to the most part we are indepentant we will get independance because we have the gear and means and the will. the time is close.
yeah but it was not drafted in taiwan. why should they listem to orders from the mainland?
they have a choice if they want to leave they can china shouldnt stop them.



posted on Sep, 9 2004 @ 06:24 PM
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Originally posted by devilwasp
yes i am scottish and to the most part we are indepentant we will get independance because we have the gear and means and the will. the time is close.


Sincerely How close you are? like 50, 100, or 1000 years? Any Idea, I just can not wait.

If it were true, it would be a vast boost to Taiwan Indepedence.



posted on Sep, 9 2004 @ 09:40 PM
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Originally posted by devilwasp
[yes i am scottish and to the most part we are indepentant we will get independance because we have the gear and means and the will. the time is close.


DevilWasp:

This is not a flame..... I think i asked this before but I can't remember. Can Scotland stand alone from an economic / base industry standpopint? This comes up when Qubec tries to leave every 10 years or so and the consensus is that they would be in bad shape. Im ignorant about the industial base etc of Scotland do you think its doable?



posted on Sep, 9 2004 @ 10:50 PM
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devilwasp:

It appears that you are having to dig deep to find support for your argument, as your others fall by the wayside and crumble. First of all some facts: The UN does not make or enforce laws per se, the International Court of Justice deliberates the latter only. Further, that court decides issues at the request of “states” and Taiwan is not a state, nor is it a member of the UN, and therefore cannot bring a case forward. Now let’s talk about this thing you call “International Law” since it is really the UN charter to which you refer. Your representation is incomplete, and so I give you the missing and very relevant pieces. You state:

article 15 of the humane right treaty of 1948 YOU signed it so you must abide by it, no longer is it a china-taiwan matter its a UN matter now as i understand thier nationalitly by choice which is taiwanese cannot be changed because of the UN international law PART I . they may determine thier goverment the chinese goverment cannot claim them because that would be breching both laws.
UN international law
Article 1
1. All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

UN human right.
Article 15.
(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.

(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.
The above is an absurd interpretation. No one disputes a right to a nationality, the article does not state you have the right to change the national status of a territory., nor does it state that just because an Iraqi wants to become an American he should be denied that right. Definition of Nationality OED: The status of belonging to a particular nation; an ethnic group forming part of one or more political nations. I reiterate; Taiwan is not considered a nation or state. United Nations definition: Refers to country of citizenship. However, nationality is sometimes used to mean ethnicity, even though the two are technically different. People of one ethnic group do not necessarily live in one geographic location (such as an Italian living in Italy and an Italian-American living in the US). Because of this, ethnicity and nationality are not always the same. www.un.org...
\

To your point in part, Article 73 of the UN charter:
Members of the United Nations which have or assume responsibilities for the administration of territories whose peoples have not yet attained a full measure of self-government recognize the principle that the interests of the inhabitants of these territories are paramount, and accept as a sacred trust the obligation to promote to the utmost, within the system of international peace and security established by the present Charter, the well-being of the inhabitants of these territories, and, to this end:

a. to ensure, with due respect for the culture of the peoples concerned, their political, economic, social, and educational advancement, their just treatment, and their protection against abuses;

b. to develop self-government, to take due account of the political aspirations of the peoples, and to assist them in the progressive development of their free political institutions, according to the particular circumstances of each territory and its peoples and their varying stages of advancement;

c. to further international peace and security;

d. to promote constructive measures of development, to encourage research, and to co-operate with one another and, when and where appropriate, with specialized international bodies with a view to the practical achievement of the social, economic, and scientific purposes set forth in this Article;


The caveat:

4 All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.

7 Nothing contained in the present Charter shall authorize the United Nations to intervene in matters which are essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of any state or shall require the Members to submit such matters to settlement under the present Charter; but this principle shall not prejudice the application of enforcement measures under Chapter Vll.


Therefore, the U.S, by virtue of membership, is acting outside of the above parameter (7), and again for your edification; Taiwan is not a state.
www.un.org...

The following is a descriptive within the UN’s documents on the China/Taiwan affair:

"Decides to restore all its rights to the People's Republic of China and to recognize the representatives of its Government as the only legitimate representatives of China to the United Nations, and to expel forthwith the representatives of Chiang Kai-shek from the place which they unlawfully occupy at the United Nations and in all the organizations…[related to it."UN note 1, Historical Information.

And who was Chiang Kai-shek you ask?

By 1950 Chiang and the Nationalist government had been driven from the mainland to the island of Taiwan (Formosa) and U.S. aid had been cut off. On Taiwan, Chiang took firm command and established a virtual dictatorship. www.bartleby.com...
A man disimissed, is the answer.

Et pour les français ici, et parce que je déteste… the attacks against same of late, I think it appropriate for the anti-extra USA to work for their education… par consequent:


La question de la représentation de la République de Chine (Taiwan) aux Nations Unies ne sera pas examinée au cours de la cinquante-huitième session de l’Assemblée générale, faute de consensus au sein du Bureau. En effet, au terme d’un débat au cours duquel 104 délégations ont pris la parole, le Président de l’Assemblée générale, M. Julian Robert Hunte (Sainte-Lucie), a proposé au Bureau de ne pas recommander l’examen de cette question en plénière. En présentant la demande d’inscription de ce point à l’ordre du jour*, le représentant de la Gambie a estimé que Taiwan devait pouvoir contribuer au partenariat mondial fondé autour des Objectifs du Millénaire. Il a jugé regrettable, qu’à l’aube du troisième Millénaire et alors qu’il est un partenaire commercial actif, un centre financier modèle et la septième puissance économique mondiale, Taiwan reste en marge de la communauté internationale.

Pour sa part, le représentant de la Chine a fait valoir que l’admission de Taiwan aux Nations Unies constituerait une violation des principes de la Charte de l’Organisation autant que de l’intégrité territoriale et de la souveraineté de la Chine, dont Taiwan est une province. En conséquence, il s’est catégoriquement opposé à l’inscription de la question de la représentation de la République de Chine (Taiwan) aux Nations Unies à l’ordre du jour de cette cinquante-huitième session de l'Assemblée générale. Estimant, quant à elles, que la résolution 2758 adoptée en 1971 avait définitivement réglé cette question, nombre de délégations ont, à l’instar de l’Egypte, souhaité que cette question ne soit plus examinée par le Bureau.

www.un.org...


One last time then, Taiwan belongs to China, the UN which is misquoted by anti-Chinese endorses that position as does the U.S government which the anti-Chinese misrepresents.


[edit on 9/9/04 by SomewhereinBetween]



posted on Sep, 9 2004 @ 11:38 PM
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Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
One last time then, Taiwan belongs to China, the UN which is misquoted by anti-Chinese endorses that position as does the U.S government which the anti-Chinese misrepresents.
[edit on 9/9/04 by SomewhereinBetween]


SWIB, there has been alot of historical evidence to back up the statement that China has no claim on Taiwan (see below for one). You are correct, that the UN does not recognize Taiwan as a state. That being said if they declared thier independance, the US would recognize them. Or loose credibility about being at the forefront of democracy etc. By following your logic, should I still be a subject of the crown?




posted on 10-7-2004 at 21:00 Post Number: 655080 (post id: 675774) quote

quote: Originally posted by zcheng

germ, glad to hear you. I do not deny that China censors the Internet. One major content filtered is sex and adult related stuff. I am for such filtering. Other filtering are propaganda from evil cults and others. If you can read Chinese, you can go to sina.com.cn, china.com, Xinhua news etc. You can see that foreign news are reported objectively.

Actually Chinese people get more accurate news than American people, because most american people stick to there favorite TV channel like Fox, MSNBC, CNN, ABC, NBC, CBC. Most TV stations are controlled by Jewish interest and biased for their interest first. The only thing it can not do is to declare Independence. Taiwan is part of China.

Humm... First off, the Chinese government may want to give Taiwan a name and call it "its official name", but it does not make it so just because the communist state wants to. Taiwan was never really part of China....never

The original people of Taiwan are of Malay-Polynesian descent, and there are still many of them living in the mountains and forests.

There is also the Treaty of Shimonoseki in 1895 When the Chinese Imperial government gave sovereingty of Taiwan to the Japanese forever. The Taiwanese did not like being incorporated to the Japanese empire, so with the help of China they declared its independanceon May 25th 1895. This was the first independant republic in Asia, with the help of the Manchu officials.

This is the flag of the Taiwan Republic in 1895.


Althou the republic of Taiwan was crushed by the Japanese shortly after, and Taiwan remained part of the Japanese empire, there were always some revolts agains the Japanese government.

The below was a demonstration in 1995 to the Shimonoseki Treaty, and a way for the Taiwanese to say Goodbye to China

100 years Shimonoseki anniversary in Taipei: "Goodbye to China."

The information above and much more can be found in the following link, which is a Taiwanese link.
www.taiwandc.org...

Oh, and about the Chinese people getting more accurate news than the American people.....please....tell me....who and why first brought to light the SARS problem in China?........ and what happens in China if someone makes a site that openly criticizes the communist regime? what happened to the same person that brought up the Chinese government coverup of SARS? What has happened to him and others like him for criticizing the communist state for the Tiananmen Square and asking for compensation to the families of the 1,000+ Chinese that were killed? What happens if any Chinese criticize your government on demonstrations in the streets? what happens to those people?


[edit on 11-7-2004 by Muaddib]



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 12:04 AM
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Originally posted by FredT
SWIB, there has been alot of historical evidence to back up the statement that China has no claim on Taiwan (see below for one). You are correct, that the UN does not recognize Taiwan as a state. That being said if they declared thier independance, the US would recognize them. Or loose credibility about being at the forefront of democracy etc. By following your logic, should I still be a subject of the crown?


Zcheng is entitled to his opinion, that does not make it mine. And, there is NO historical information to back up the claim that China has no claim on Taiwan, unless of course that information is a myopic and one-sided view of reality.

So now the issue is that the U.S will recognize Taiwan as an independent state if so declared? Are you absolutely certain? The U.S must have a rather warped view of independence and who should have it then. Does Kurdish Iraq ring a bell?



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 12:30 AM
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SWIB,

Well Pres. G. Bush said 'he would do whatever it took to ensure Taiwan did not fall into the CCP(chinee commie party (paRTY on the graves of the chinese people)) hands'. If that means we have to kill every one of those godless commies we will.

Where's the button? I'll push it right now!

Bode



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 01:12 AM
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There are 40-50 beautiful countries w/ 100,000,000's of people will voice the opinion that Taiwan is a independent state and should be in the UN.

www.taipeitimes.com...

Isn't that wonderful! Oh, what a great Idea!

In other news some impoverished downtrodden people in China wanted to peacefully petition their gov't to address terrible grievances and were beaten by police thrown in a gymnasium and beaten again and again.(30,000 beatings/hour)

www.taipeitimes.com...

Now which country would you like to be a member of.

The country that beats their citizens for exercising their rights (1) China

Or the one that love to see protests and is unafraid of decent (2) Taiwan

For me nothing else matters.

Bode




[edit on 9/12/2004 by bodebliss]



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 03:43 AM
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Originally posted by FredT

DevilWasp:

This is not a flame..... I think i asked this before but I can't remember. Can Scotland stand alone from an economic / base industry standpopint? This comes up when Qubec tries to leave every 10 years or so and the consensus is that they would be in bad shape. Im ignorant about the industial base etc of Scotland do you think its doable?


we own the north of the north sea,most water going into england,most whisky owners are based in scotland.
i think so.



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 04:27 AM
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Originally posted by devilwasp
we own the north of the north sea,most water going into england,most whisky owners are based in scotland.
i think so.


Too bad you don't have any fish left.



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 04:37 AM
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Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween


Zcheng is entitled to his opinion, that does not make it mine.


yes you are right but isnt it funny that he doesnt hear others opinions he shoots them down.



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 07:00 AM
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Originally posted by devilwasp
we own the north of the north sea,most water going into england,most whisky owners are based in scotland.
i think so.

devilwasp:
Sorry, have to ask again:
Sincerely How close you are to Scotland Independence? like 50, 100, or 1000 years? Any Idea, I just can not wait.
If it were true, it would be a vast boost to Taiwan Indepedence.



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 09:19 AM
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The state dept. can not transmute nor can the UN nor CHIna the freedom of the Taiwanese, and never will. The french never had anything to do w/ Taiwan and so their opinion does not count. The KMT nor the CCP (2 rival bandit gangs) were not signators to the San Francisco Treaty. They have no say in the final outcome of the issue of Taiwan Independence.If a robber invades your house and then according to SWIB's logic he can start writing checks on your bank account. Ha Ha!

Bode Bliss






[edit on 9/10/2004 by bodebliss]



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 09:54 AM
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Originally posted by mad scientist


Too bad you don't have any fish left.

we do just on the west coast.



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 09:56 AM
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Originally posted by zcheng

devilwasp:
Sorry, have to ask again:
Sincerely How close you are to Scotland Independence? like 50, 100, or 1000 years? Any Idea, I just can not wait.
If it were true, it would be a vast boost to Taiwan Indepedence.

25 mabye 50 years?



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 10:00 AM
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Originally posted by devilwasp

Originally posted by zcheng

devilwasp:
Sorry, have to ask again:
Sincerely How close you are to Scotland Independence? like 50, 100, or 1000 years? Any Idea, I just can not wait.
If it were true, it would be a vast boost to Taiwan Indepedence.

25 mabye 50 years?


It is a long time still, I can not wait. You better take actions now. Otherwise, those know they are scotish will all have died by then.



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 10:12 AM
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doubt that. we will never forget who we are.
just out of curiostity ,please dont take this as offensive, but why are asking about this?



posted on Sep, 10 2004 @ 10:20 AM
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Originally posted by devilwasp
doubt that. we will never forget who we are.
just out of curiostity ,please dont take this as offensive, but why are asking about this?


Because you are a fervent supportor for Taiwan Independence, while so timid for supporting Scotland Independence, the Country, the Nation of your own!



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