Can China Invade Taiwan?

Howl, Sun Yat-Sen originally overthrew the Manchu's and proclaimed the Republic of China, but later presidents post WWI began selling out Chinese soveriengty to Japan in exchange for loans, most of China was still dominated by "warlordism" where generals in command of private armies who lorded over whole provinces fought and schemed with each other for political power.

The KMT, was also one of these "warlord factions" with routes mostly in anti-dynastic feeling and secret societies.

It took and alliances with the original CCP (with some 400-600 members in all) and the pressure and support of Moscow to begin transforming the KMT or Goumintang (GMD) into a political party with a mass base, where Moscow gave them yearly loans and guns to train a National Revolutionary Army to help bring about a bourgosie national revolution to shack China lose from the domination of Russia's capitalist foes aka England and France.

The CCP formed a coalition with the GMD-Left, in the hopes of swinging the GMD from its rightist-moderate ideolegy, this I have no doubt if successful would've led to coalition democratic government. However, with Chiang-Kai-Shek's rise to power, he instituted a purge of all known CCP members, the CCP at this time was mostly of well meaning left-wing socialist intellectuels fighting for workers rights, the status of peasants and the role of the eventual Red Army had not yet been concieved.

With Chiang's purge (and with his ordering of the shooting of some 10-20,000 protesting workers) the split of forced and the CCP began working undergorund, Zhou-Enlai and Zhu de began first with the atack on Nanghang began what would be known as the founding of the Red Army later renamed People's Liberation Army.

Starting with the foundation of base areas where flexible mobile warfare could be utilized the civil war with the Nationalists began in earnest.

But nevertheless, the point stands that before Chiang's initial purge the CCP were also a part of the original Republic of China even thoough it was a farce.

Eventually Chiang moved his headquarters to Nanjing, and later Beijing, before in the 1940's it was reclaimed by the CCP and renamed Peking.

The CCP were not in rebellion against the government, and neither were the Nationalists, infact these two gorups were the ONLY two groups that could contest for the government of China because of their political ideologies and different bases of support.

But it is a civil war because both sides fought for the destany of China and fought with determination, we won because we better represented the wishes of the oppressed masses while Chiang was supported by landlords and rich capitalists and for a while Moscow.

We won the civil war and thus won the right to represent China dispite the decades it took for the USA and the UN to recognize this.

Mao: A life; a biography by Philip Short, copyright 1999.

And Bodebliss, that article still doesn't change that fact that China is having the world's highest rate of economic growth and will reach super power status within 20-50 years. Still doesn't change the fact that China is the worlds greatest place to invest and still doesn't change the fact and I mean fact that we are becoming on of the worlds richest nations.

And finally, you can't use a man raping a women arguement, Taiwan is quite capable of giving us a bloody nose if we tried, and still doesn't change the fact that the majority of Taiwan's citizens are ok with the status quo and will consider unification with an improved situation and still doesn't change the fact that every single other western nation in history has never allowed a secession if it could help it.

... that article still doesn't change that fact that China is having the world's highest rate of economic growth and will reach super power status within 20-50 years. Still doesn't change the fact that China is the worlds greatest place to invest and still doesn't change the fact and I mean fact that we are becoming on of the worlds richest nations.

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Yes, I believe that to be quite true, so I ask once again, take up the position I challanged you to earlier ... you seem confident in this projection so it seems logical that you embrace reason ... as opposed to the illusion of reason with the implied threat of force.

... or do you yourself have some doubt?

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.... and still doesn't change the fact that every single other western nation in history has never allowed a secession if it could help it.

....

And finally, you can't use a man raping a women arguement, Taiwan is quite capable of giving us a bloody nose if we tried ....

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Yes ..... and because all the other children did it you felt oblidged to throws stones at the villiage idiot? Do you not have the capacity to make up your own mind? ...or are you still clinging to the Nuremburg Principle?

... but I suppose that is beside the point ... I am not trying to use this example to justify our civil war ... I already gave you the reasons along with links to substantiate the underlying motivations of our civil war.

but for the sake of argument I will recap... in point of fact, yes, we Americans did not allow such a succession, yet I point out once again, that circumstances of fundemental freedoms were at stake ... so yes, in order to uphold this universal right ... this inalianable right ... we americans HAD A DUTY to confront a darkness within ourselves ... yes, we are not perfect, do not profess perfection, but at least we had the integrity to address the issue in order to right a fundemental wrong.

... once again, your reasons for wanting Taiwan back ... do I have to relist those too?

So as with everything else, context and circumstance play critical roles in how one addresses reality. Absolute states as in black and white are reserved for children within the context of their chronologically progressive developmental world view gestalt. In short, much of what we do as adults require the context of a situation in regards to mitigating circumstance ... that IS part of what separates the adult from the child.

As for the "bloody nose" yes, in the AVERAGE scenario ... barring Xena Warrior Princess ... a woman can inflict A DEGREE of damage and will do WHATEVER she can to avoid death, rape and or torture ... this has commonly included punching, scratching, biting, screaming, reasoning, kicking, running etc. ... but ultimately, in more cases than not, eventually succumbing to the use of superior force when cornered ...

... after all, age for age, a woman has less mass and a higher percentage of body fat to muscle ratio ... along with a lower percentage of "fast twitch" muscle fibers ... wider pelvic geometry ...hormonal chemistry biased to estrogen ... but for all of these percieved disadvantages ... there are numberous advantages ... longer lifespan, greater appreciation for truth, beauty and justice, a bias for cooperative ventures, faster social maturation, gentler, more civilized, greater dispostion to use intellect over brute force solutions ...

hmmmmmm .... sounds rather like a good comparison for TAIWAN

Now lets look at its counterpart ...

... after all, age for age, a man has MORE mass and a higher percentage of body MUSCLE to FAT ratio ... along with a HIGHER percentage of "fast twitch" muscle fibers ... NARROWER pelvic geometry ... hormonal chemistry biased to TESTOSTERONE ... but for all of these percieved advantages ... there are numerous DISADVANTAGES... SHORTER LIFESPAN, LESS APPRECIATION FOR TRUTH BEAUTY AND JUSTICE, A BIAS FOR CENTRALIZED HIERARCHIAL AUTHORITY, SLOWER SOCIAL MATURATION, MORE AGGRESSIVE, LESS CIVILIZED, MORE DISPOSED TO USE BRUTE FORCE SOLUTIONS OVER INTELLECT ...

.... sounds rather like a good comparison for MAINLAND CHINA'S GOVERNMENT.


So now we have resistant "petite female" .... ardent "big male" ... polite refusal ... followed by insistant overtures ... polite refusal ... insistant overtures with implied threat ... polite refusal with hand reaching into bag for anything sharp .... while pressing "911 send" on cellphone.

Hmmmm, I don't know how you define rape, but this scenario ... sounds like a very effective metaphor for potential rape to me ...

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.... and still doesn't change the fact that the majority of Taiwan's citizens are ok with the status quo and will consider unification with an improved situation

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Yes, quite so ... glad to hear you confirm it ... so why "gun to the head" ... you see, your glaring flaw here is the constant presense of implied threat ... you baldly claim with no reservation the nature of the threat and the concrete implications of such use of force ... in such terms that CANNOT be misunderstood or twisted to more POLITICALLY CORRECT EUPHEMISMS ... its all there in black and white for all to read.

... Your continued stance with gun in one hand, flowers in the other ....

So, as you say, the Taiwanese are "okay" with Status Quo .... as in the way things are now, yes? ... as in we are Taiwanese ON TAIWAN and you are Chinese ON THE CHINESE MAINLAND ... hi there, come and visit (with cameras not guns ... and buy some souvenirs for the family) ... bye bye now ... come again sometime.

As you say ... the Taiwanese may very well consider unification .... but ONLY when your situation is significantly improved enough to MERIT it.

Talk is cheap ... and as we Americans say, build a better mousetrap FIRST ... then people will beat a path to your door to obtain it.

Pointing a gun to someones head and telling them they have 30 minutes to "decide" to buy an undesirable mousetrap is simple extortion nothing more .... actions attributable to a common thug or crimminal, not a government ... well not a good one anyway.


[edit on 10-11-2005 by LCKob]

as soon as I get a hold of myself I'll respond. Comparing Mainland China to a male and Island-part-of-China Taiwan to a woman... I think I have to take a look at NeoConfucianism again....

Middle Kingdom

Take your time ... but I warn you I may not be alive in 50 years ... I'm no spring chicken

LCKob

Originally posted by The Middle Kingdom
We won the civil war and thus won the right to represent China dispite the decades it took for the USA and the UN to recognize this.

But you didn't, did you? You never completed the defeat of the KMT or the occupation of Taiwan.

And whether you like it or not, the Nationalists were the government of China before you. Thus making you the rebel faction. It's a simple equation.

Just as the British were the government of the American colonies before the US Congress.

China is patient, we can wait 100 years for as long as we reach our goals.

Howl, its not a matter of being a rebel faction, we were an equal political party among the GMD political apparatus before Chiang-Kai-Shek instigated the Civil War, we did not start it nor want it, we were content with trying to swing the GMD to better represent the masses and have a say in a coalition government.

Even if we haven't complated it in he literal sense, but now your just being nitpicky we have about 99% of mainland China's population and control every inch of ground that was China's (with the exception of some Tibetan land given to India as a result of the Dalai Lama's failed diplomacy) on the mainland, for good or ill we have won the civil war, our enemy has no ability to contest it, and he is isolated and along and without the resources to bring the fight to us, under the military writings of Clauswitz and Sun Tzu we won even if it is a tad tarnished.

China is patient, we can wait 100 years for as long as we reach our goals.

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That is good to hear, because Taiwan is equally patient (if not more so) given the circumstances. Yes, they are patiently WAITING for you to catch up and make good on your claims and projections of significant social and economic reform (did I hear you say social democracy?)

Yes, Taiwan is more than happy to maintain the present "status quo" until such time that Mainland China proves to be an EQUAL partner in the goal of a "Unified China"

... for such a worthy goal. I dare say, Taiwan would be content to wait for how ever long it takes.

Be it 50 years ... or 5000.

... after all thats the civilized and adult thing to do ...


LCKob




[edit on 11-11-2005 by LCKob]

And that is what we (both of us) are doing, waiting.

"And that is what we (both of us) are doing, waiting."

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Well thats good ... as long as this "waiting" is another way of saying improving over time and keeping to promises made.

While this remains the case, I can revise my perception of your government from that of a foe, to global neighbor in good standing ... at least for this issue anyway.

Heres to eliminating "such issues" between our respective ideologies.

LCKob


[edit on 11-11-2005 by LCKob]

Wow, I wonder if we just managed to finish the issue.

Originally posted by The Middle Kingdom
Wow, I wonder if we just managed to finish the issue.

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Let us hope that the governing bodies involved follow our example of reasonable discourse between adults.

Peace Middle Kingdom (and all contributers to this thread)

LCKob

Well I meant more in regards to the purposes of this thread, but ya let us hope.

Originally posted by LCKob
That is good to hear, because Taiwan is equally patient (if not more so) given the circumstances. Yes, they are patiently WAITING for you to catch up and make good on your claims and projections of significant social and economic reform (did I hear you say social democracy?)

Eh...I don't think we are qualified to speak in Taiwan's behalf (even if I am a Taiwanese).

For example, while some people like this idea, some people (including me) hold a different opinion (my opinion is to walk on the road of indepedence regardless of China's situation).

Also, you have to take into account China's soft war. China is actually trying to manipulate with Taiwan's domestic politics (with media and various other ways). So they can achieve their goal peacefully even if they don't change their own political system much.

But indeed the world is too complicated and far from ideal, and some issues are probably more suitable to be decided by later generations. All we can do is probably making sure that they still have different options to choose from.

That is good to hear, because Taiwan is equally patient (if not more so) given the circumstances. Yes, they are patiently WAITING for you to catch up and make good on your claims and projections of significant social and economic reform (did I hear you say social democracy?)


Eh...I don't think we are qualified to speak in Taiwan's behalf (even if I am a Taiwanese).

For example, while some people like this idea, some people (including me) hold a different opinion (my opinion is to walk on the road of indepedence regardless of China's situation).

Also, you have to take into account China's soft war. China is actually trying to manipulate with Taiwan's domestic politics (with media and various other ways). So they can achieve their goal peacefully even if they don't change their own political system much.

But indeed the world is too complicated and far from ideal, and some issues are probably more suitable to be decided by later generations. All we can do is probably making sure that they still have different options to choose from.

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Ah forgive for the lack of clarity ... in retrospect it does sound presumptuous of me ... especially since I am an American. For this I apologize.

At an earlier point in this thread, I made it apoint that one of the differences I had with Middle Kingdom is the ability to choose, as in personal freedoms.

In my rush to drive home certain points, I fear a basic underlying message was lost ... namely the ability to choose. The basic premise I had in mind, went along the lines of ... promoting the concept of cultural evolution to the point of a more egalitarian political system (I believe MK mentioned a Social Democracy) ... with this as a basis ... it was then my hope that Mainland China would "woo" Taiwan with honest and postive overtures of joint cooperation with the possibility of reunification.

... I had it in the back of my mind to further the metaphor of the male / female courtship process ... where due to a strong and honest attraction, the traditonal male courts the female with the intent of a long term meaningful relationship where both parties are partners and equals in every sense of the word.

... but as with all courtships, the male has to be successful in the "wooing" of the female, and must convince her of his superior qualities and honorable intent in regards to a total relationship.

... thus, choice (in the form of a consensus) would exist ... just as a woman has the right to choose her mate ... Taiwan would have the choice to partner ( or not ) with Mainland China ...

This is the reason, I stressed throughout my posts, the notion of "building the better mousetrap ... by way of societal improvement ... for who knows what really will happen ...

All I do know in this regard, is that for any relationship to have a chance at true happiness, there must be respect, tolerance and love beyond the animal magnetism that fires our material natures.


... I think the descriptor would be "best friend and lover"


... where America would be the equivalent of a good male friend (platonic) that was made during college ...

LCKob



[edit on 12-11-2005 by LCKob]

Do you happen to be a girl?

Originally posted by The Middle Kingdom
Do you happen to be a girl?

haha ... No Middle Kingdom, I am a guy ... Japanese American who lives in Hawaii ... but I do have two sisters, so I suppose that may have had some effect on my personal psyche

... in that I am a romantic ... that was brought up with the likes of Jean ValJean, King Arthur, Martin Luthor King, John F Kennedy, Plato, Aristotle, Einstein, Spock, Musashi Miyamoto, Don Quiote, Rurouni Kenshin haha

Might for right, Justice for all ... the heroic quest.

... like you Middle Kingdom, I have not lost sight of reality, I merely keep the hope alive for a better world by means of this "impossible dream". as the Man of La Mancha would put it.

For if there is such a thing as sin (in my book anyway) I would say it is not found in the failure of the achievement of some ideal ... but rather the failure to try.

LCKob

*nods* which is why Mao's failure's weren't as much as a disaster as people think they are, he was an idealist who tried for the best and took the blame for it when things went wrong.

Originally posted by The Middle Kingdom
*nods* which is why Mao's failure's weren't as much as a disaster as people think they are, he was an idealist who tried for the best and took the blame for it when things went wrong.

... but he made the attempt to improve things ... if there is a lesson here, it would be that I think.

... honor his goal and continue the process of societal improvement ...


... after all you have an island to to "court"


... and a world to impress ...



... don't disappoint us! hahahaha



LCKob

[edit on 13-11-2005 by LCKob]

*nods*

I'm glad we've reached this understanding, let us hope our politicians can do similar.