Can China Invade Taiwan?

And all of it is useless, all governments will do what they need to do to ensure their national security.

Arueing that because land has exsited for centuries before us is useless at best and bs at worst, what matters is not what some hippy green peace fan club but what the world politicians and historians decide.

What is legal and illegal counts more then what is right and wrong, and what the strong dictate is more important then what the weak wish for.

Might makes right and the victors write the history, only in our day now that "justifying" such adventures is important enough to be given notice to the courts and to the people and other intellectuels.

We have enough of a cultural and historical claim to the island that we can justify siezing it by force, it is a renegade province, it is the last bastion of the nationalist counter revolutionary forces, it is a potential threat to our security, neutralizing it though unification of status quo are both suitable to maintain our security, indpendance will set the stage for an invasion by a US led coalition onto China and we must prevent that scenario from happening.

You may not like, I myself would prefer a peaceful solution that does not risk Chinese (and I count the Taiwanese as Chinese too) and possibly American lives but if its nessasary then we must do what is nessasary for the Middle Kingdom.

Except that you ain't the middle kingdom anymore, anymore than Egypt is the upper and lower kingdoms, or Cambodia the Angkorian empire, or the Commonwealth the British Empire.

And how is the forced takeover of Taiwan, with all its attendent death and destruction, general mayhem and economic backlash, necessary for the PRC? The only people it's necessary for is the PLA brass. It confirms their power over PRC decision making and allows them to play with their toys.

[edit on 7-11-2005 by HowlrunnerIV]

And all of it is useless, all governments will do what they need to do to ensure their national security.

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Rationalization, just another way to say submit or die ... for the strong will always prey on the weak.

Yes, this works for the animal kindom quite well, but then again, most animals do not have the intellectual capacity that humans do ... and their actions are based upon an instinctual hardwiring that really limits their options. Humans? for good or bad, we do what we do knowingly ...

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Arueing that because land has exsited for centuries before us is useless at best and bs at worst, what matters is not what some hippy green peace fan club but what the world politicians and historians decide.

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Actually, my point here was to point out the relative worthlessness of your transitory claims for perpetual ownership... if what you said was true in principle, the majority of the world would belong to Africa by way of traveling nomadic tribal units. Five thousand years? Five hundred years? By your own principle, those early nomads have a better claim to the lands under question.

Thats right, sacrifice EVERYTHING for your goal ... is that not what you stated earlier? So what happens when you cross that line, do you take Stalin's view on the cheapness of life?

"one death is a tragedy, one million deaths is a statistic"

Yes, most conquerers would heartily agree with you here ... as for those who you invade? ... well they are either dead or to scared to say much in the presence of overwhelming might.

Politicians were meant to be functionaries of a governing body for the people (at least modern progressive ones anyway) ... thus the politicians (good) ones SERVE THE INTERESTS OF THE PEOPLE ... not the other way around ... well that is if you care about such things as freedom ... but then again, China does not have a long history for such "humanistic pursuits".

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What is legal and illegal counts more then what is right and wrong, and what the strong dictate is more important then what the weak wish for.

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The term legal does not automatically equate with what's right ... a corrupt governmental entity can enact laws which fly in the face of basic rights for its own agendas.

The Neuremberg Trials exemplified the pitfalls of "justification by official mandate". That would only be true, if you were a mindless zombie, compelled to follow orders ... so barring the fact that you are retarded, what is your excuse?

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Might makes right and the victors write the history, only in our day now that "justifying" such adventures is important enough to be given notice to the courts and to the people and other intellectuels.

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Yes, thats what happens with education and enlightenment ... by your tone, am I to infer that you disapprove of the present state of affairs? That you would rather have an uneducated worker class of peasents with a ruling aristocracy? ... after all who needs education? ... it only gets in the way by making the peasants uppity and unsatified with their lot in life?

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We have enough of a cultural and historical claim to the island that we can justify siezing it by force, it is a renegade province, it is the last bastion of the nationalist counter revolutionary forces, it is a potential threat to our security, neutralizing it though unification of status quo are both suitable to maintain our security, indpendance will set the stage for an invasion by a US led coalition onto China and we must prevent that scenario from happening.

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Yes, keep telling yourself that and you may actually start to believe it all ... potential threat to security? Oh you mean like Cuba? ... believe it or not, but Taiwan wants to be left alone ... if anything, mainland china is the aggressor here - saber rattling and posturing for all the world to see.
Haha... using Taiwan as a staging point for invasion? I take you for being dogmatic (and culturally biased) ... but not stupid ... invade China? Such ideological paranoia does not become you ... at this point, based upon your latest answers, I suspect that you are becoming more "party-line" because that is all that is left for your responses ... more and more, you are forced to strip away the facade of civilized behavior - only to reveal the dark and brutal truth that china is still imperialist by nature and that when push comes to shove, the ancient dragon comes forth to devour the voice of dissent.

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You may not like, I myself would prefer a peaceful solution that does not risk Chinese (and I count the Taiwanese as Chinese too) and possibly American lives but if its nessasary then we must do what is nessasary for the Middle Kingdom.

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Funny you should end your quote with your namesake ... "Middle Kingdom" ... the title that was meant to describe the intrinsic superiority of the "center of civilization" ... the bastion of the arts, culture and long standing tradition

... yet ask yourself , or better yet others looking in as to whether your "Middle Kingdom" is all that its cracked up to be ... when you MUST FORCE SOLIDARITY from those bent on fleeing your influence.

Ask yourself truly, what is so great about a culture bent upon the tyrannical practice of subjugation for the sake of unity?

Yes, the usual conclusion here is that if others run from you ... and that you MUST FORCE YOURSELF upon them ... then there is something very disagreeable with you.

Hardly the Superior Middle Kingdom by sane standards anyway ... or am I missing something here?

Take a good look at how your argument has evolved over the past few exchanges ... it went from reasoning a reconcilliation to outright ... belligerent justification of the use of force to gain your goals "at all costs".

"Zhongguo" or China means literally "The Middle Kingdom" the english name China is believed to have dirived from the Qin Dynasty under the First Emperor. But ya, I do believe my culture is suporior, but doesn't eveybody? I mean it in the most innocent way where I believe that living a Chinese life with a traditional touch is best, just as you could say everyone should become Americans.

Its the thing with all Center Nations (aka, Russia, America, Rome, England, China, etc) that their so succesful that their own people believed that they were suporior and that everyone should just be like them. Its simplistic, but it gives the idea across.

Next, if my opinion seems Party Line then so be it, but I am a realist, a pragmatist, I recognize how the world works, what needs to be changed and how it can be done.

I believe that Taiwan is ours, it was taken from us and if a certain number of the people don' want to rejoin then so be it, they are traitors pure and simple.

"Secession" only becomes valid when the people who seceed succesfully, f they lose history causally shrugs them off and insignificant, only revisionists try to change and rewrite history.

You claim we will force ourselves onto them, you are probly right, we will probly arrest every single intellectual, politician, journalist, KMT member, professors, teachers, every single member of the Intellisignia.

We will probly also while we're at it send them all for reeducation and forced labour, destorying any possibilty of secession ever again.

But that is only if we force the issue, only if we invade and have to take the island by force, anyone with a brain can realize it.

But I don't want it to happen that way, noone does, but we realize that if we have to use force then it will be the path we will have to take, however that option disappears with each passing day because each day we evolve one more step towards Democratic Socialism, a fully democratic China with Socialist roots. The Workers and Peasants will be fully be able to directly vote on every issue and local autonomus soviets fully able to work effectively, priate and free enterprise will be directed towards profit, yes, but profit that aids the people and contributes to society.

Our government will be strong centrally, the People's Congress will be the arbiter of the people's will on a more regular basis and the Politburo with many wise elected leaders from the Communist Party will be fully able to arbitrate the matters of state and run the economy and the armed forces.

The forced invasion of Taiwan won't happen. Because it will be peaceful, because we have by then become a fully democratic socialist nation, and Taiwan will see the happiness of the Mainlander's and see our prosperity and they will know that our estrangement will come to an end, they wil no that it is futile to stay away from the motherland forever, and they will vote, and they will vote for Unification because they know that when it succeeds then the Chinese Destiny will reunited and the Chinese People can work for the greater strength and prosperity of our nation.

"Zhongguo" or China means literally "The Middle Kingdom" the english name China is believed to have dirived from the Qin Dynasty under the First Emperor. But ya, I do believe my culture is suporior, but doesn't eveybody? I mean it in the most innocent way where I believe that living a Chinese life with a traditional touch is best, just as you could say everyone should become Americans.

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Fair enough, I would be a liar if I did not profess to feel the same way about my primary culture (I am Japanese by the way) ... but with one caveat ... namely the inclusion of the concept of choice i.e. personal freedoms.

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Its the thing with all Center Nations (aka, Russia, America, Rome, England, China, etc) that their so succesful that their own people believed that they were suporior and that everyone should just be like them. Its simplistic, but it gives the idea across.

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I agree in principle, but would also add that the most successful models of governance show very real material indicators of superior performance in the form of realized productivity, industrial/technolgical leadership, level of basic freedoms and generalized quality of life for the FULL spectrum of citizenry.

The bottomline here is performance and quality of life as a basis for any such assessments.
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Next, if my opinion seems Party Line then so be it, but I am a realist, a pragmatist, I recognize how the world works, what needs to be changed and how it can be done.

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I have no problems with the notion of "realism" or "pragmatism" for that matter, but as with all else, if take to extremes, both of these concepts can become the vehicles or justifications for horrific "expediencies for the greater good"

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I believe that Taiwan is ours, it was taken from us and if a certain number of the people don' want to rejoin then so be it, they are traitors pure and simple.

"Secession" only becomes valid when the people who seceed succesfully, f they lose history causally shrugs them off and insignificant, only revisionists try to change and rewrite history.

You claim we will force ourselves onto them, you are probly right, we will probly arrest every single intellectual, politician, journalist, KMT member, professors, teachers, every single member of the Intellisignia.

We will probly also while we're at it send them all for reeducation and forced labour, destorying any possibilty of secession ever again.

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I rest my case.

Such pronoucements while appreciated for their candor, merely reinforce the point I was making all along. Such sentiment as yours, is the very crux of the conflict between our two ideologies ... so much so, that while I may respect you for your intelligence, I must also admit that your adamant position on the issue (with its potential horrific consequences) ... makes me your opponent ... and as such in all honesty your enemy.

Be warned that my view/opinion is far from uncommon ... and that American opinion (and probably much of the western world) would view such actions as barbaric and will act accordingly. Defensive Weapons and technology? Such "saber rattling" and admissions like yours .... give western powers any such justification for "empowering" an effective posture of SELF DEFENSE. Yes, by forcing the issue, Mainland China is actually catalyzing popular sentiment for Taiwan ... continued aggressive posturing will encourage further involvement and trade with the U.S. and others for the means of self preservation.

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But that is only if we force the issue, only if we invade and have to take the island by force, anyone with a brain can realize it.

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Yes, but that is a HUGE IF ... and I am confident that you being a "realist" fully comprehend the factor of "implied threat" and intimidation.

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But I don't want it to happen that way, none does, but we realize that if we have to use force then it will be the path we will have to take, however that option disappears with each passing day because each day we evolve one more step towards Democratic Socialism, a fully democratic China with Socialist roots. The Workers and Peasants will be fully be able to directly vote on every issue and local autonomus soviets fully able to work effectively, priate and free enterprise will be directed towards profit, yes, but profit that aids the people and contributes to society.

Our government will be strong centrally, the People's Congress will be the arbiter of the people's will on a more regular basis and the Politburo with many wise elected leaders from the Communist Party will be fully able to arbitrate the matters of state and run the economy and the armed forces.

The forced invasion of Taiwan won't happen. Because it will be peaceful, because we have by then become a fully democratic socialist nation, and Taiwan will see the happiness of the Mainlander's and see our prosperity and they will know that our estrangement will come to an end, they wil no that it is futile to stay away from the motherland forever, and they will vote, and they will vote for Unification because they know that when it succeeds then the Chinese Destiny will reunited and the Chinese People can work for the greater strength and prosperity of our nation.

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"The forced invasion of Taiwan won't happen" ...

... because we (China) will loom over the issue with the proverbial mailed fist as the threat in the shadows ... all pervasive, yet invisible .

How about this then ... if you are so confident about your final projection then how about removing the theat factor completely? As in ....

After much deliberation and debate, Mainland China offers the hand of friendship to our Taiwanese Cousins. As an act of good faith for the future of our cultures, we will cease any and all hostilities surrounding the issue of Taiwanese Soverignty, in the hopes that you will vote ...

"... for Unification ... of the Chinese People < so that we > can work for the greater strength and prosperity of OUR < unified > nation. "






... oh and by the way, we won't kill, torture or "reeducate" the intellectuals



... the ball is in your court sir.


LCKob



[edit on 8-11-2005 by LCKob]

Oh BTW Mr "middle kingdom" pls dun try to link your party with the whole China nation. They are two different things. China will survive without a communist party, but communism will disappear from Earth's surface with China.

Opps i thought the real and original China is that tiny island on the Pacific?

A lot of people translate the word "Zhongguo" to "Middle Kingdom" but its meaning is more like "Central Kingdom."

It is not really a good name today I think because obviously the world is round, and no part in the world is the center. The earth is probably not the center of the universe. So the word Zhongguo really loses its meaning.

[edit on 8-11-2005 by twchang]

Originally posted by bodebliss
www.globalsecurity.org...

These are one step down from Aegis destroyers.

Indeed...I read on news that the system in the 4 Kidd class have been upgraded, and is quite similar (but not as good) to Aegis system. Taiwan's Navy also consider them as training ship to get the sailors more familiar with the new type of system, therefore they can easily make transition to the Aegis if the need for such system is required in the future.

Hm... I really, REALLY want to know, what is it America's business anyways?

I truly believe the conflict between China and Taiwan should be left up to themselves to decide. China offered Taiwan 50 years of non-intervention if they reunified with China, and most people know that by 50 years, China would be be a long way into democracy. China is trying by all means to reunify PEACEFULLY (Please don't even try to argue this statement with your "CHINA IS EVIL" bashes.)

Do American's really want to start a war with China over Taiwan?
If a war is started, there sure as hell will be a draft... Anyone know how to escape to Canada or like gimme some hints if I do get drafted how to escape to Canada.

*Note: I'm serious

[edit on 9-11-2005 by k4rupt]

I truly believe the conflict between China and Taiwan should be left up to themselves to decide. China offered Taiwan 50 years of non-intervention if they reunified with China, and most people know that by 50 years, China would be be a long way into democracy. China is trying by all means to reunify PEACEFULLY (Please don't even try to argue this statement with your "CHINA IS EVIL" bashes.)

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hmmmm ... who said China was evil? I would diffrentiate the actions of the government from the people themselves ...

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Do American's really want to start a war with China over Taiwan?
If a war is started, there sure as hell will be a draft... Anyone know how to escape to Canada or like gimme some hints if I do get drafted how to escape to Canada.

*Note: I'm serious

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Yes, I suppose one should turn a blind eye to troubles that surround oneself ... it is the prudent thing to do ... the smart thing by all means ... I mean after all why invite trouble?

Oh look that poor women is being raped (must look away) ... so sad, but hey better her than me ... besides who told her to walk so close to that dark alley ...

Hrmf! I wish that woman would stop screaming for help ... it beginning to get on my nerves .... so inconsiderate, now look what you've done, I've gone and lost my appetite ...








Yes, your right, getting involved in anothers plight is really not for everyone.


LCKob




[edit on 9-11-2005 by LCKob]

"... Taiwan is offered 50 years of non-intervention if they reunified with China, and most people know that by 50 years, China would be be a long way into democracy...."

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

" You are Pre-Approved for this very special offer that has no annual fee and no transfer fee, a credit line up to $20,000 and a low 6.9% fixed APR on all balances transfer now. You will also enjoy a 0% purchase APR until May 2003 with a variable APR thereafter, currently equal to 18.9%.

So go ahead and by the things you want!

haha .... notice any similarities?

I have had friends who took up such offers ... case in point: (fictitious names)



Me: Hey bob, whats up?

Bob: Well not much ... how about you?

Me: Samo samo ... Wow, nice Home Entertainment System! Where did you get the money for it?

Bob: Boy, talk about providence! I got an offer for credit that was too good to pass up ... I was able to transfer my balance to a new credit card at only 6.9%! Wow, my old rate was 13.9% ... and I have this rate until May of 2003 ... think of the interest I save ... and of course, I will use this time to pay off the balance compounded by the interest saved ... but I just couldn't resist the deal on the Home Entertainment System ...

Me: Are you sure, that you can pay it off? Its not like the ruduced rate is forever ... your deferred status is only until May of '03 ... what is it after that?

Bob: .... hmmmmmm ... let me check .....shuffle shuffle ....it says here 18.9%! Well, thats kinda high... but I accepted the offer already and I am sure that I can pay if off in the time remaining ... and after that I just have to be good on the payments. Haha Piece of Cake!


TWO YEARS LATER ....

Me: Hey Bob, haven't seen you around what happened ... even tried to call, but you phone was disconneted?

Bob: Yeah... I'm kinda ashamed, but I took the card for granted and charged up alot of stuff on it ... and once the new rates hit at 18.9% ... I could barely keep up with the interest ... let alone make a dent in the amount I owe....

I had to file for bankruptcy ... Man I had no idea that those guys would turn so vicious and coldhearted once my money ran out ... boy they took me to the cleaners ...

.... but you know, when its all said and done, it was my fault really, talk about being sucked into the old "deferred payment" in order to get me hooked by contract to pay those exorbitant rates ... and the worst part about it ... I had the fantasy to the very end that I could pay it alll off in the alloted time ... boy talk about dumb. They really had my number ...

... offer me low introductory rates for a specified time ... to draw me in ... with a high credit limit to set the hook ... and bam! Accrued debt at a high fixed interest rate for the duration of the contract.

You know, at the end, I hate to say it but it felt like being owned ... yeah, they owned me alright ....




This is a true story, and to this day, we call this guy (who is a good friend) ...

"Fish"




The point to this story is merely to shed light on the condition of "50 years of non-intervention" ... with the assumed evolution of Mainland China ...

So what happens after this period of "deferred payment"? ... as in most contracts ... the individual(s) are bound to a set of revised rules < invariably > biased towards the entity offering the deal ...

"Dear Taiwan,

You are Pre-Approved for this very special offer that has no annual fee and no transfer fee, an unlimited freedom credit until May 2056 with a variable interest thereafter, currently equal to ... what ever WE want.



Sincerely,

Wushu Ping,

Director of Cultural Reassimulation

China Express - Regional Headquarters: Beijing





[edit on 9-11-2005 by LCKob]

Basically as it stands now, China can pretty much do whatever it wants to. Even though we have

Originally posted by k4rupt
Hm... I really, REALLY want to know, what is it America's business anyways?

Do American's really want to start a war with China over Taiwan?
If a war is started, there sure as hell will be a draft... Anyone know how to escape to Canada or like gimme some hints if I do get drafted how to escape to Canada.

*Note: I'm serious

you have got all arse backward,its more like Does china really want to start a war with USA over Taiwan? Does taiwan really worth the total destruction of PRC and china being complete wiped out?

americans are not cowards nor stupid, not only taiwan is a long time US allies, taiwan is also the utmost critical allies in the US first island chain of defense against PRC. if taiwan falls then the entire first island chain of defense that the USA have maintained for the last 60 years collapse too. the united states is also required by the US law the taiwan relation act to defend taiwan.

if PRC is stupid enough to invade taiwan for any reasons. you know full well that it doesn't requirea US military draft. taiwan can hold its own with lots of fire power and has plenty of active and reserve soldiers. the PACOM has in its disposal including B-1 B-2 F-117 F-14 F-15 F-16 F-18 F-22 (if needed) CBGs P-3C aegis seawolf LA virginia subs, the list goes on and on.

Originally posted by The Middle Kingdom
...you could say everyone should become Americans.

Not in a million years would that ever happen.

Its the thing with all Center Nations (aka, Russia, America, Rome, England, China, etc) that their so succesful that their own people believed that they were suporior and that everyone should just be like them. Its simplistic, but it gives the idea across.

Except, of course, for the fact that China was superior to no-one. It lost the Opium Wars, the Boxer Rebellion was a failure, you missed the industrial revolution and Japan took Manchuria off you.

I believe that Taiwan is ours, it was taken from us and if a certain number of the people don' want to rejoin then so be it, they are traitors pure and simple.

Again with the taken. It wasn't taken from you. When I say "you" I mean the PRC. The PRC was not in existence at the time. At the end of the war Taiwan (Formosa) was returned to China. The Republic of China. You, the PRC, are the traitors.

"Secession" only becomes valid when the people who seceed succesfully, f they lose history causally shrugs them off and insignificant, only revisionists try to change and rewrite history.

They are not seceding. The mainland is in revolt against them.

You claim we will force ourselves onto them, you are probly right, we will probly arrest every single intellectual, politician, journalist, KMT member, professors, teachers, every single member of the Intellisignia.

All hail Chairman Mao and the Great Leap Forward, how many died in that blinding piece of brilliance? Can't really tell if you're being provocative, ironic or just stating your belief.

We will probly also while we're at it send them all for reeducation and forced labour, destorying any possibilty of secession ever again.

Again with the seccession. They can't secede. They are not a part of the PRC.

But that is only if we force the issue, only if we invade and have to take the island by force, anyone with a brain can realize it.

But I don't want it to happen that way, noone does, but we realize that if we have to use force then it will be the path we will have to take,

Why? why do you "have" to do it at all?

Our government will be strong centrally, the People's Congress will be the arbiter of the people's will on a more regular basis and the Politburo with many wise elected leaders from the Communist Party will be fully able to arbitrate the matters of state and run the economy and the armed forces.

Bwahahaha!

Your police can't even be bothered to hunt serial killers. Your government sends tanks and APCs to deal with peaceful protest, you export citizens into an area that was never populated by ethnic Chinese and corruption is so bad Hu Jintao told the Communist Party that it couldn't expect the people to continue to allow it to lead if it didn't clean up. Which part of "the people's will" is all of that?

Taiwan will see the happiness of the Mainlander's and see our prosperity and they will know that our estrangement will come to an end, they wil no that it is futile to stay away from the motherland forever, and they will vote, and they will vote for Unification because they know that when it succeeds then the Chinese Destiny will reunited and the Chinese People can work for the greater strength and prosperity of our nation.

Can I have some of what he's smoking?

"Can I have some of what he's smoking?"

Howl. your not even worth talking to anymore. We were never the traitors, it was the GMD that first began a campaign of hunting down CCP members forcing us to eventually establish a Red Army, they were the ones that refused to establish a coalition government in 1945 and proceeded to continue the war, read up on your history of the Chinese Civil War.

[edit on 9-11-2005 by The Middle Kingdom]

Originally posted by j311o

you have got all arse backward,its more like Does china really want to start a war with USA over Taiwan? Does taiwan really worth the total destruction of PRC and china being complete wiped out?

americans are not cowards nor stupid, not only taiwan is a long time US allies, taiwan is also the utmost critical allies in the US first island chain of defense against PRC. if taiwan falls then the entire first island chain of defense that the USA have maintained for the last 60 years collapse too. the united states is also required by the US law the taiwan relation act to defend taiwan.

if PRC is stupid enough to invade taiwan for any reasons. you know full well that it doesn't requirea US military draft. taiwan can hold its own with lots of fire power and has plenty of active and reserve soldiers. the PACOM has in its disposal including B-1 B-2 F-117 F-14 F-15 F-16 F-18 F-22 (if needed) CBGs P-3C aegis seawolf LA virginia subs, the list goes on and on.

LOL I knew someone like you would ocme along.

You honestly think fighting a war with China wil not require a draft? LOL?! The U.S. can barely hold down Iraq without a draft, if a war started right now, it would be IMPOSSIBLE to ifght off China while still be in Iraq + Afghanistan w/o issuing a draft.

You think that only the PRC would be wiped out? Milllions of Americans will die right along with the Chinese and so I ask again, WHAT ARE YOU WILLING TO TRADE MILLIONS OF AMERICAN LIVES FOR?

Wow you haev seriously got to realize that the United States is not invincible...

[edit on 9-11-2005 by k4rupt]

So the Nationalists, the Kuomintang, under Generalissimo Chiang Kai Shek were never the government of the Republic of China? They were never based in Beijing (Peking) and they never collected taxes or raised armies to defend the Republic of China against enemies "both foreign and domestic"?

In fact, they were not the internationally-recognised and "legitimate" government of China?

And as they were not the "legitimate" government of China, the communists, under the leadership of Mao Tse Tung, therefore could not fight a "civil" war against them. Because "civil" wars are only fought between rival groups claiming to be the government, or wishing to become the government. And as the KMT were not the government, it cannot have been a civil war. Right?

And because the KMT were not the government before the CCP, the CCP as the government of the PRC cannot have been in revolt against the government of the ROC.

This must be that non-linear, Asian logic at work.

Try and follow.

KMT = government of China (ROC).

CCP = not the government, therefore rebel movement against gov't.

KMT retreat across Straits of Formosa to Taiwan. Leaving CCP in charge of all of mainland China, which they re-name the PRC.

Thus, Taiwan is the only loyal remnant of the ROC and therefore the "legitimate" gov't of China. Demonstrated by its continued, uninterrupted use of the name Republic of China. It is a gov't-in-exile, exactly as King Haakon of Norway, Queen Wilhelmina of the Netherlands and Charles De Gaulle of France led during WW2.

Making the CCP the "rebels" who are in revolt against the gov't. Not the other way around.

As the KMT were the government of China and the CCP are the rebels against that government the island was not taken from you because it was never yours to begin with.

You have never conquered it, thus making it independent from you. The CCP has never administered the island, thus making it independent from you. It has never paid tax to you.

It doesn't matter who started the war, the CCP was the rebel movement in revolt against the government of China.

No, please, I'm serious about chasing the dragon with you. If the Taiwanese think you're all so happy and want a piece of it why are they buying Kidd-class destroyers to keep you away, why did they build their own fighters, why do they want Fighting Falcons? If the Taiwanese want your prosperity...well, it's their prosperity already. They own half the businesses driving your economy anyway. And why are so many mainland men looking for Taiwanese brides? Perhaps it isn't quite so rosy in your paradise after all.

Let's face it, you lied to Hong Kong, why would Taiwan trust you half as far as they could kick you?

"Throughout the course of many conversations with Chinese friends I have come to realize that many members of China's intellectual elite do not favor democracy and even despise it. Some of them are rather pessimistic about Taiwan's democratization.

Some of these Chinese intellectuals apparently believe that Taiwan is a laughing stock in the eyes of the world, as its democracy is so chaotic.

I was once shocked when a Chinese friend told me that "the Chinese are too slavish too adapt to a democratic system." What stunned me was not his view on the Chinese people, but the fact that he no longer believed that I -- being from Taiwan -- was "Chinese." His sentiments underline the absurdity of China's ongoing attempts to marginalize Taiwan.

Whether Taiwan is perceived by the rest of the world to be a laughing stock is not for Beijing to decide.
"

Intelligent Source

China can invade Taiwan and they will and its that simple. China would take Taiwan in less then a month "fully" Taiwan would putup a fight no doubt aboutit and there will be alot of casualites from bothsides, U.S.A will help Taiwan by supplying them with weapons not man power.

[edit on 10-11-2005 by Jamie6661986]

Nice find Bodebliss!

Pardon, but I could not resist posting the entire article to show some rather interesting figures on the state of Taiwan ...

"By Su Ching-lun 蘇經綸

Thursday, Nov 10, 2005,Page 8

As a second-generation Mainlander, I was taught by the Chinese Nationalist Party (KMT) to be patriotic and proud of the fact I was Chinese. However, as a result of the democratization of Taiwan and my experience of studying overseas, I now have a totally different view of China.

Throughout the course of many conversations with Chinese friends I have come to realize that many members of China's intellectual elite do not favor democracy and even despise it. Some of them are rather pessimistic about Taiwan's democratization.

Some of these Chinese intellectuals apparently believe that Taiwan is a laughing stock in the eyes of the world, as its democracy is so chaotic.

I was once shocked when a Chinese friend told me that "the Chinese are too slavish too adapt to a democratic system." What stunned me was not his view on the Chinese people, but the fact that he no longer believed that I -- being from Taiwan -- was "Chinese." His sentiments underline the absurdity of China's ongoing attempts to marginalize Taiwan.

Whether Taiwan is perceived by the rest of the world to be a laughing stock is not for Beijing to decide.

In Germany, the Bertelsmann Foundation recently released next year's Bertelsmann Transformation Index (BTI), which deals with the quality of political leadership.

In terms of transformation progress, the 2006 BTI results indicate that Taiwan ranked first in Asia, and ranked fourth in the world, rising from eighth in 2003. In the government competence category, the nation ranked first in Asia, and ranked fifth internationally, up from 11th in 2003. Due to Taiwan's excellent performance in every category, it is widely regarded as a success story among nations in transition.

Meanwhile, China was placed in 85th position this year, down from 77th last year in terms of its transformation progress. In government competence, it plunged to 70th this year from 55th last year.

According to the World Economic Forum's Global Competitiveness Report 2005-2006, Taiwan ranked first in Asia in the growth competitiveness index. Compared with the rest of the world, Taiwan ranked fifth in this index. Meanwhile, China dropped to 49th from 46th.

Additionally, the World Competitiveness Yearbook, issued by the International Institute for Management Development of Switzerland, moved Taiwan up one place to 11th position while China dropped to 31st position from 24th.

Taiwan also ranked 32nd among 159 countries surveyed in Transparency International's 2005 Corruption Perception Index, up three notches from last year while China dropped to 78th from 71st.

According to Reporters Without Borders' 2005 Worldwide Press Freedom Index, Taiwan occupies 51st spot, up nine notches from last year's survey while China ranked 159th among a total of 167 nations.

Although I agree that Taiwan's democratic development is far from mature and there is still a lot of room for improvement. It seems that the latest statistics released by international organizations all see Taiwan, the so-called "laughing stock" of the Chinese, from a different perspective.

Some believe that it was the KMT that gave the nation a solid foundation. If that is the case, how do we interpret the nation's improved performance in every aspect over the last few years when Taiwan's democratic system has allegedly been in chaos?

I can tolerate those "Chinese" who refuse to acknowledge Taiwan's democratic achievements, but the international community does not see eye-to-eye with them. They still seem to have found the nation progressive in almost every aspect.

Su Ching-lun is the director of the University of Rhode Island Taiwan Student Association.

TRANSLATED BY DANIEL CHENG

Yes, its easy to see why China wants Taiwan back ...

[edit on 10-11-2005 by LCKob]