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Can China Invade Taiwan?

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posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 02:52 PM
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Its not a question of China risking everything for Taiwan, its a question the the sovereigty of China and if Taiwan ever gains de facto and de jure independance it will mean that quite officially that China has been split into two, also it will mean as pointed above a loss of face for our government for we've been for years stating that Taiwan has been culturally a part of China and its split would mean a spliting of the Chinese Destiny.

Taiwan is PRC's little brother and former bully, its time for us to make amends and reunite as a single nation 2 systems.

And I have no doubt with how it'll be, aside from a transfering of Taiwan's military to the PLA and PLAN, I have no doubt that Taiwan will remain with its own democratic system with the exception of the freedom of mobility between Taiwan and China and a lifting of any tarrifs and maybe a more university exchanges.




posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 02:53 PM
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Originally posted by The Middle Kingdom


China has around 1800 nukes for strategic purposes sinodefence.com

More then enough to cripple your economy even if we lose, it means essentially that a nuclear exchange is a game of chicken the first to blink loses.


cripple but not destroyed right? j/k seriously if there is a nuclear exchange China's history and thousands of years of it along with culture would be wiped out in minutes. same for the U.S. unless its got the missile shield to prevent such catastrophe.


Also, America has also supplied arms and poison gas to countries.... say Iraq, Iran, Panama, and various other dictators... need is say more?


u got proof of dat?


And yes, the matter with Taiwan is mostly about face


so China is trying to recover Taiwan only because of erasing China's history of being bullied and conquered. thats the past gotta look the future. China always look at itself as the center of the Earth. the superior nation.



But we did that not because of some magic but because we were smarter, stronger, and more flexible then Chiang's army could ever be, and we had the wills of the masses behind us at every step and it is through the masses that we eliminated AIDS and HIV to about .01% of the population rather then 15%, we improved the lot of the people through employment, and construction projects that through day to day acts of heroism the people helped in the construction of China.


i just heard that AIDs in China is still spreading. i know the Chinese are trying to prevent the spreading.



Your arguements regarding Tibet and Taiwan have been proven invalid, arguements of China's future belligerance have been proven wrong, so stop trying to demonize China.


China's actions have in the recent past should not be discounted, and i see no assurances by China that they will not invade Taiwan.



posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 03:33 PM
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Its not a matter of discounting acts that NEVER happened, or do not correspond with the definitions under international law.

As for proof, yes I have proof read Emperor's and Pirates by Noam Chanksy, in fact America's arm's dealing is so wide spread that its taken for granted and if a humble Lt such as myself heard of it... also if there is a nuclear exchange its irrelevent if all of China's history and culture is destroyed because the the history of the rest of the world and civilization as we know it will be wiped out as well, so please be careful with what you wish for, China doesn't not wish a nuclear war only America is arogant enough to think that it can use nuclear force in a conflict see "The Nuclear Umbrella" Doctrine.

Of course HIV is starting to spread again about only 800,000 Chinese are infected in comparrison to 1.3 billion chinese in total its an astronomically small number and people infected by HIV are registered and we can take measures to stop the spread.

Recovering Taiwan is important in of itself, they are our brothers who due to political circumstances were separated from their heritage and China has been doing everything it can do to bring about peaceful unification under two systems.



posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 04:58 PM
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Originally posted by The Middle Kingdom
Recovering Taiwan is important in of itself, they are our brothers who due to political circumstances were separated from their heritage and China has been doing everything it can do to bring about peaceful unification under two systems.


everything u can? there is the economic power to have Taiwan return back to the fold. otherwise the placing of hundreds of missiles near Taiwan and in its direction does not assure the Taiwanese people that China wants peacefully reunification.



posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 08:12 PM
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Originally posted by bodebliss
Well you know the US will fight if it has too.

That's all you need to know.

The american public will support that.

It will be a short war filled with nuke exchanges.

You'll hurl your 23 nukes and we'll hurl our 7,000 10 megaton warheads.



So Bodebliss, what you're saying is ur willing to give up the lives of Americans in 23 cities. Millions of Americans will die, for what? Bodebliss, I dont even have any words for what you just said, it makes me utterly speechless... You have just proven to the board members YOUR level of intelligence you are with your comment. Now I do hope no one takes this kid seriously. Just read what he said.

[edit on 20-10-2005 by k4rupt]



posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 08:18 PM
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And the simple fact that's he's so misinformed that he thinks that China only has 23 ICBM's.... China has 1800 used for such purposed which would mean that every state capitol, military base, port city, transportation hope and major population centers would be wiped out and the falkl out would kill off every other American leaving peoply 500,000 Americans left tops to pick up the pieces compared to maybe 100,000,000 chinese left over.

Then there's the fact that I'm dead certain that some of your officers will refuse to launch the missiles as well.

And I implied with "everything we can" that we're utilizing our economy as a long term incentive for Taiwan to rejoin us, the missiles well, you never know half of them could be toy rockets


But then again we can't always be 100% sure, its mostly a show of force as I understand it to keep things at the status quo until we reach an agreement suitable to both parties.

[edit on 20-10-2005 by The Middle Kingdom]



posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 08:21 PM
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Honestly, people that say "OH YEAH WE HAVE MORE NUKES THAN CHINA, BLAH BLAH BLAH" you guys are missing out the whole point. So what if we have more nukes? SO WHAT? Does that mean we still won't lose millions of lives?For what? For what I ask you are you willing to trade millions of American lives for?
Can someone please give me an answer? Bodebliss?

[edit on 20-10-2005 by k4rupt]



posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 08:25 PM
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Let's keep your personal rebuttals to a minimum and address the matter at hand...

Talk of bombs and all that "good stuff" need not become "explosive"

*Sounds the warning siren*



posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 08:34 PM
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hmm? Which one of us are you referring too? My arguements tend to break down in cohension after wading through all ridiculas bull that Oct and Bodebliss and that other guy keep throwing at us, they don't listen to our arguements and when they can't argue against them they revert to chanting "CCP is EVIL!" and hope we forget our arguements before spouting the same lies and garbage again.

I think that if the Moderators want to keep personal rebuttals to a minimum a certain amount of effort has to be made by the admins to treat both parties equally.

As in stop allowing these instigators to slander China, we disproved them fair and sqaure and these doomsday scenarios solve and contribute nothing.



posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 09:29 PM
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Perhaps I am weird, but what's the point of having a nuclear armageddon just to save your face?

Oh, and I find it an irony that some Chinese here claim that the Taiwanese are their brothers, yet they may annihilate their brothers if they claim their independence. Furthermore, a big majority of these brothers do not want to be reunited with the PRC - at least that's what the polls in Taiwan have shown.

So, why not forget Taiwan: it's (I shall refrain from using the word peanuts as it apparently had offended some people here) nothing compared to the potential of the land of Qin.

So again, why can't the USA and China just work together to achieve greater things for mankind rather than a nuclear armageddon to save faces?

Blobber


[edit on 20-10-2005 by Blobber]



posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 10:17 PM
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But we're not risking nuclear armageddon, in fact for 60 years we haven't attack Taiwan, we're waiting for the right moment to unify with them. However the use of armed force is only a last resort, as we reconize that anything is possible and if they do delcare de jure independence then we will have to take nessasary measures to ensure our territorial soverignty after that the moral and ethical considerations are subjected to realpolitik. However in such a case we'ld do our best to sieze the island with minimal harm to the island and its inhabitants and would not use nuclear arms.

After all who wants to be king of a parking lot.

[edit on 20-10-2005 by The Middle Kingdom]



posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 10:52 PM
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Originally posted by The Middle Kingdom
But we're not risking nuclear armageddon, in fact for 60 years we haven't attack Taiwan, we're waiting for the right moment to unify with them. However the use of armed force is only a last resort, as we reconize that anything is possible and if they do delcare de jure independence then we will have to take nessasary measures to ensure our territorial soverignty after that the moral and ethical considerations are subjected to realpolitik. However in such a case we'ld do our best to sieze the island with minimal harm to the island and its inhabitants and would not use nuclear arms.

After all who wants to be king of a parking lot.

[edit on 20-10-2005 by The Middle Kingdom]


... but the bottom line is, if reason or diplomacy fails, then the Taiwanese will be forced to undergo Chinese assimilation.

How about this example then ... say your sister was being pestered by a very large and powerful man who was vying for her affections ... and say they went on a date or two ... but then the girl tried to break it off ... yet the man insisted on seeing her and consequently to force his attentions on her in the form of rape ... now how would you feel as her father or brother.

No matter how you cut it an unwilling partner within this context is rape.

So when you say that force is only a last resort, what you are really saying is that it really does not matter, and that choice was really nothing but a politically correct illusion of civilized behavior masking the intentions of a more uncivilized age. The age of Empire..



posted on Oct, 21 2005 @ 01:11 AM
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"The US Department of Defense said on Friday that its policy toward Taiwan remains unchanged and that the weaponry the US plans to sell to the country is defensive rather than offensive.

The Pentagon made the remarks in response to a Sept. 27 opinion piece in the Japan Times relating to the US military's stance on Taiwan's defense.

According to the article, US military officers who asked not to be named said that the new commander of US forces in Asia and the Pacific, Admiral William Fallon, had quietly encouraged Taiwan "to strengthen its defenses with increased spending, a better command structure, and defensive missiles, mines and helicopters."

The report also said that at the same time, the commander had urged Taipei to forgo high-tech offensive weapons.

Officers in the US Pacific Command headquarters had suggested that an arms package featuring weapons such as diesel-electric submarines and destroyers that the Bush administration offered to sell Taiwan in 2001 be withdrawn, the article alleged, adding that the arms package had languished in Taiwan's legislature because of stonewalling by the opposition.

However, the US Department of Defense said it had not changed its policy toward Taiwan and that it remained firmly committed to fulfilling the security and arms-sales provisions of the US Taiwan Relations Act (TRA).

"We will continue to assist Taiwan in meeting its legitimate self-defense needs in accordance with our obligations under the TRA," it continued.

The Pentagon also rebutted other parts of the report, pointing out that labeling some items of the arms package as "offensive" weapons was inaccurate."

www.taipeitimes.com...

The US view has altered, they intermingle the words Taiwan and Country, now.

[edit on 10/21/2005 by bodebliss]



posted on Oct, 21 2005 @ 02:09 AM
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"Starting with Mao Zedong (毛澤東), Chinese communists have subscribed to the theory that, because of China's vast population and geographical spread, it can survive a nuclear attack and still prevail. Hence Mao's famous dictum that the atomic bomb was a paper tiger.

But they still wanted the bomb, notwithstanding its "paper tiger" attributes. Although Zhu has been the most crass in threatening its use against the US, there have been hints now and then that it was not outside the realm of possibility in a military conflict over Taiwan.

It is not that Beijing would be that stupid to rain nuclear weapons on the US. (Officially, Beijing professes a policy of no first-use of nuclear weapons.) There is, however, a belief that the US' threshold for nuclear punishment is very low or non-existent. It might, therefore, be coerced into keeping out of any military conflict over Taiwan, if the nuclear threat could somehow be made credible. But it is not working."

"Regional US commanders may request presidential approval to go nuclear "to respond to adversary"

www.taipeitimes.com...



posted on Oct, 21 2005 @ 02:16 AM
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Originally posted by Blobber
at least that's what the polls in Taiwan have shown.


Not actually.


Originally posted by deltaboy
u got proof of dat?


Its common knowledge that america helped saddam get WMDs.

No links needed



so China is trying to recover Taiwan only because of erasing China's history of being bullied and conquered. thats the past gotta look the future.


No its a point.

Taiwan is china and we want it back. taiwan has nothing to do with the opium wars or box rebellion. China already has got the lands taken from her in those times. (hong kong macua)


China always look at itself as the center of the Earth. the superior nation.


That is not true. after the communist took over in 49. china knew she was behind and not a supperior country. You can find them in slogans from the korean war.

Thats why she wants thrid world status. If china was to proud to be a third world nation then it would have to do heaps more things to its economy.





i just heard that AIDs in China is still spreading. i know the Chinese are trying to prevent the spreading.


Still spreading.?

How obvious would it be to know someone has AIDS.

Wear condoms.




China's actions have in the recent past should not be discounted, and i see no assurances by China that they will not invade Taiwan.


If taiwanese dont want to be with chian then a invasion will ocur.


Originally posted by FredT
Hmmm research I have seen shown that China set up bases in Cambodia to continue to funnel arms to the butcher. I will try to dig up a link for you.


Thanks much appreciated.



posted on Oct, 21 2005 @ 02:17 AM
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Originally posted by The Middle Kingdom
And the simple fact that's he's so misinformed that he thinks that China only has 23 ICBM's....


Hmmmmmmm. Let take a look shall we?

ICBM's
You have 25 DF-5 (CCS-4) with a range of 13,000km
The DF-31 is still in test and ???? who knows how many or actual performance estimates place it at 8000 km.

SLBM's
You have 24 DF-21 (CSS-N-3) that have a range of 1700km. Given the age of the platform it is unlikely it would get close enough to hit the CONUS. Hawaii, Guam, Diego Garcia, and Japan could be hit however
The JL-2 (CSS-NX-4) is still in development

Aircraft:
120+ H-6 Tu-16 BADGERs with a range of about 5,900 km

Medium range:
Long Range
DF- 3A (CSS-2) 3,000km Not quite far enuf to hit the CONUS
DF- 4 (CSS-3) 4,750km ditto But far enough for the two of them to take out Guam

SO you really do currently have 25 ICBM that are capable of hitting the CONUS at this time. In the future who knows. All the more reason to develop a shield agains potential communist agression.

So you claims of being able to hit every capital in the CONUS and rain death upon ever city right now carries as much thread as say Bob Dole threating rape without his Viagra. But I am beginning to suspect that not even you beleive the dogma and propaganda you spew forth. Is this like a class assignemnt for you or something? Look how loyal I am to the regime. Well for you efforts I give you a A+ in you Propaganda class



posted on Oct, 21 2005 @ 02:21 AM
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Originally posted by The Middle Kingdom
As in stop allowing these instigators to slander China, we disproved them fair and sqaure and these doomsday scenarios solve and contribute nothing.


Slander:

slan·der (slndr) KEY

NOUN:

Law Oral communication of false statements injurious to a person's reputation.
A false and malicious statement or report about someone.


Hmmmm what falsehood have been uttered here about China's brutal reputation?

Did not your goverment kill people in Tienneman Square?
Did not your government wage a brutal war of genocide in Tibet?
Does not your governemnt rattle sabre after sabre against the nation of Taiwan threating thier destruction if the declare independance?

etc. etc. etc. Again what slander has been offered here?



posted on Oct, 21 2005 @ 02:27 AM
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Originally posted by FredT
Did not your goverment kill people in Tienneman Square?


No...................From eye witness accounts from both sides no one was actually killed in Tiananmen Square.

Yes in beijing people were killed but stilla a samll number compared to how much people there.



Did not your government wage a brutal war of genocide in Tibet?


And in 1959 how much PLA troops were killed after the tibetians went on a rebellion



Does not your governemnt rattle sabre after sabre against the nation of Taiwan threating thier destruction if the declare independance?


And the taiwanese people if they were in chinas postition would let taiwan go?

Sorry to tell you but the people in taiwan would.



posted on Oct, 21 2005 @ 02:39 AM
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Originally posted by chinawhite

Originally posted by FredT
Did not your goverment kill people in Tienneman Square?


No...................From eye witness accounts from both sides no one was actually killed in Tiananmen Square.


Quote and link these eyewitness accounts.


Yes in beijing people were killed but stilla a samll number compared to how much people there.


Oh, well that's okay then.




Did not your government wage a brutal war of genocide in Tibet?


And in 1959 how much PLA troops were killed after the tibetians went on a rebellion


Why don't you tell us, if you can. Let's see, Tibetan Buddhists armed with anything from flintlocks to bolt-actions vs PLA armed with Type 56s and PPShs, yes, I'm sure they slaughtered you.




Does not your governemnt rattle sabre after sabre against the nation of Taiwan threating thier destruction if the declare independance?


And the taiwanese people if they were in chinas postition would let taiwan go?

Sorry to tell you but the people in taiwan would.


Really, what's the problem then?

And FredT forgot to mention China's invasion and occupation of East Turkestan, which was NEVER Chinese territory. In the same way that the former Soviet Republics of Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan et al are now independent becasue they were never traditionally Russian.



posted on Oct, 21 2005 @ 02:44 AM
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Originally posted by chinawhite
[No...................From eye witness accounts from both sides no one was actually killed in Tiananmen Square.


Hmmm from a communist offical no doubt:




At a nearby children's hospital operating theatres were filled with casualties with gunshot wounds, many of them local residents who were not taking part in the protests.

Early this morning at least 30 more were killed in two volleys of gunfire, which came without warning. Terrified crowds fled, leaving bodies in the road.

Meanwhile reports have emerged of troops searching the main Peking university campus for ringleaders, beating and killing those they suspect of co-ordinating the protests.
news.bbc.co.uk...


However, the storm troopers were very efficient and no doubt many were killed. Is it true that they bill the family for the bullet they use to execute a loved one for crimes against the state?



Yes in beijing people were killed but stilla a samll number compared to how much people there.


Well that makes me sleep better, but hey as Stalin said, one death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic. Thats the best you can offer here? the percentage killed was low :shk:



And in 1959 how much PLA troops were killed after the tibetians went on a rebellion


Im gonna wager that it was far less than the 1.2 million people that died from communist rule. Whats with you guys and the large scale killing of people? I mean think about it. Mao, Stalin, Pot do you guys HAVE to kill in the million all the time? But hey, I spent some time at a Jesuit run boarding school in Switzerland and those Monks can be tough



During the next two decades of Chinese policy, 1/5 of the country’s population (roughly 1.2 million people) died, either in prisons and labor camps or by executions. More than 6,000 temples, monasteries, and other cultural and religious buildings pillaged and destroyed. The strenuous policies remained in effect until 1979, when efforts were made inside of the Party to "recuperation", through easing-up of hostile governing, though very little has changed. Even the U.S.S.R. condemned China’s policies as the most brutal of all the Communist governments.

Two delegations have been sent to China by the Dalai Lama in 1979 and 1984 in a failed attempt to alleviate the human suffering and secure the rights of the native Tibetans, but the Chinese were not willing to discuss any terms until the Dalai Lama returns to Tibet. The Dalai Lama’s response was that issue is of no consequence.

The situation continues to deteriorate. The immense influx of Chinese immigrants into the area has now made the state not only Chinese dominated militarily, politically, and economically, but now socially and culturally. The influx and domination switch from Tibetan to Chinese is also causing tensions between China and India, of which Tibet no longer serves as a buffer.
www.acu.edu:9090...





And the taiwanese people if they were in chinas postition would let taiwan go?


My guess is yes, or at least handle it in a better manner. You guys blew it with your heavy handed action in Hong Kong, what incentive do they have for ever coming back. Actually if you want to get technical The rebels really are Mao and perhaps Taiwan should be demanding that the oh so proud middle kingdom come back into the fold.



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