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Can China Invade Taiwan?

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posted on Oct, 18 2005 @ 12:02 AM
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"But I won't feed into your bullsh*t, China has never attacked another country except in self defence, or back in the early fifties when we were unifying our country and eliminating the warlords and bandits."

And now your embracing the bandits(KMT) and calling them brother. How sweet!

"We only attacked Vietnam when they invaded Cambodia, an ally who we had treaies with, we made our show of force and withdrew and relations improved afterwards, it was not an invasion, and I chellenge you to find any moments in Chinese history where China invaded. "

This is wrong. The chinese invaded and occupied Vietnam for one thousand years. That is why there are 300,000 ethnic chinese there today.


There is so much more to know, yes?

You were wrong about this, maybe there are other assumptions that need investigation? Like the possible explosion and fire that will melt everything and make it sink deep into the Earth. I believe that's called, "The China Syndrome", either after the movie or after the future twists and turns of the chinese economy and gov't. You forget America has weathered many storms of the kind I speak about. The CCP and CCP/China none. We are confident that we will prevail. Can China say the same?

No! Because it has not been proved the current China can survive, as yet.








[edit on 10/18/2005 by bodebliss]




posted on Oct, 18 2005 @ 03:25 AM
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Originally posted by k4rupt

Originally posted by bodebliss
middle (CCP) kingdom,

Well last time I checked they were ready and getting more ready all the time.


What are you talking about? This has nothing to do with my question. My question is Do you honestly think the American public would support a war against China for no reason.


And since the Communist revolution, do you know how much improvement there is in the life of an an average Chinese citizen. DO YOU? Just read some books about life in China prior to WWII and compare it to now. The improvement is TREMENDOUS and no one can deny this.


[edit on 17-10-2005 by k4rupt]


Bravo!!! I think this is the fact that most opponents are trying to deny.

Look, I think u guys never really understand Chinese philosophy. The Confucius is very practical philosophy, its more focus on the result of the events. The thing is what CCP has done for whole China society is acceptable and it seems will sustain in relatively long term. Then that is enough.

What FredT said about the cost…

Come on man, u cant use double standards to adjudge other country!!! Compare with any superpower in the world, ok, lets say compare with U.S. what cost funded US developing? The slave-selling? Or slaughter Indian and conquer their land? Look, it is not thousands years ago, its not ancient time, at beginning 100 years since US was established. That continent is saturated by tears and blood.



posted on Oct, 18 2005 @ 11:35 AM
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ok so you cite an example of Chinese Imperial history hundreds and hundreds of years ago. Geuss what? It doesn't apply to the current situation.

Find an example where China invaded another country AFTER 1949! Can't find one? Ya I thought so your arguements are flawed with your single minded determination in your quest to hate the People's Republic.

"Like the possible explosion and fire that will melt everything and make it sink deep into the Earth. I believe that's called, "The China Syndrome", either after the movie or after the future twists and turns of the chinese economy and gov't. You forget America has weathered many storms of the kind I speak about. The CCP and CCP/China none. We are confident that we will prevail. Can China say the same?"

What are you smoking? wtf is the China syndrome? If its from a movie, as in a work of fiction then it has no bearing on a serious open minded debate.

As for the future twists and turns of the Chinese economy, many economies go through twists and turns how they act and change because of such is not open to prediction from some hick from Cleveland.

Sure American has weathered the Depression, but the Chinese weathered foreign invasions and foreign influences for a couple of CENTURIES there is no comparrison. We came out of them stronger then ever before and getting stronger every day while America only weathered about oooh about a decade of high prices, and massive unemployment.

There is no comparrison between what the Chinese people have endured in comparrison to the American people.

[edit on 18-10-2005 by The Middle Kingdom]



posted on Oct, 18 2005 @ 08:25 PM
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Bodebliss, you still haven't answered my question. Do you think the American public would support a war against China, which would be for practicaly no interest to the American people, no logical reason, and one that would require a DRAFT. Honestly, do you believe that we will support that kind of war? Nearly half of Americans don't support the war in Iraq and you cant even compare Iraq to what we will face against China.



posted on Oct, 18 2005 @ 08:36 PM
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Originally posted by k4rupt
Do you think the American public would support a war against China, which would be for practicaly no interest to the American people, no logical reason, and one that would require a DRAFT. Honestly, do you believe that we will support that kind of war? Nearly half of Americans don't support the war in Iraq and you cant even compare Iraq to what we will face against China.


its possible that the American people would feel the need to support the war against China if it threatens America's interests in Asia. many Americans are Asians with ties to many countries surrounding China. of course that is just a small minority, however the President would feel the need to defend Taiwan if threaten for if we fail to our obligations to defend Taiwan, how would other Asian nations would feel? that we abandon treaties and promises and everything we said would be all lies. if South Korea is invaded again should the American people feel we should defend them?



posted on Oct, 18 2005 @ 08:46 PM
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Originally posted by k4rupt
Bodebliss, you still haven't answered my question. Do you think the American public would support a war against China, which would be for practicaly no interest to the American people, no logical reason, and one that would require a DRAFT. Honestly, do you believe that we will support that kind of war? Nearly half of Americans don't support the war in Iraq and you cant even compare Iraq to what we will face against China.


Most americans don't support the war in iraq becasue we are the aggresser. + bush lie about the WMD and lots of other things... which was the whole point... If a war aginist china... most americans would support it... hey... i am chinese american... and i support it action on china if they do something stupiedd... like invade taiwan...



posted on Oct, 18 2005 @ 08:51 PM
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Originally posted by deltaboy

Originally posted by k4rupt
Do you think the American public would support a war against China, which would be for practicaly no interest to the American people, no logical reason, and one that would require a DRAFT. Honestly, do you believe that we will support that kind of war? Nearly half of Americans don't support the war in Iraq and you cant even compare Iraq to what we will face against China.


its possible that the American people would feel the need to support the war against China if it threatens America's interests in Asia. many Americans are Asians with ties to many countries surrounding China. of course that is just a small minority, however the President would feel the need to defend Taiwan if threaten for if we fail to our obligations to defend Taiwan, how would other Asian nations would feel? that we abandon treaties and promises and everything we said would be all lies. if South Korea is invaded again should the American people feel we should defend them?



The majority of the American public would not love to send hundreds of thousands of our sons and daughters to their death for this reason. You and I both know most Americans wuld not support a war against China for this reason. The president can feel all the need he wants to defend Taiwan, but without the support of the American public, this war cannot be won. I'm still waiting for someone to answer me question.

[edit on 18-10-2005 by k4rupt]



posted on Oct, 18 2005 @ 09:59 PM
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Originally posted by k4rupt

Originally posted by deltaboy

Originally posted by k4rupt
Do you think the American public would support a war against China, which would be for practicaly no interest to the American people, no logical reason, and one that would require a DRAFT. Honestly, do you believe that we will support that kind of war? Nearly half of Americans don't support the war in Iraq and you cant even compare Iraq to what we will face against China.


its possible that the American people would feel the need to support the war against China if it threatens America's interests in Asia. many Americans are Asians with ties to many countries surrounding China. of course that is just a small minority, however the President would feel the need to defend Taiwan if threaten for if we fail to our obligations to defend Taiwan, how would other Asian nations would feel? that we abandon treaties and promises and everything we said would be all lies. if South Korea is invaded again should the American people feel we should defend them?



The majority of the American public would not love to send hundreds of thousands of our sons and daughters to their death for this reason. You and I both know most Americans wuld not support a war against China for this reason. The president can feel all the need he wants to defend Taiwan, but without the support of the American public, this war cannot be won. I'm still waiting for someone to answer me question.

[edit on 18-10-2005 by k4rupt]


As for your first statement, I take that to be inarguably true, no one relishes the thought of personal sacrifice in the form of offspring ... but if the cause is great enough, the sacrifice will be made. Our fight for independance from the British Empire is such an example and the subsequent major wars, notably WWI & WWII offer further proof.

Will such a decision be an easy one free from controversy? No. ... but there is a fair chance that the context of personal freedom vs. cultural tyranny will tip the scales towards active U.S. intervention. Keep in mind, the goal is not to INVADE China ... but rather to prevent the forced assimilation of a small principality by a much larger and more powerful entity.

Now some may make the reverse argument, ... what if an american state tried to break away from the U.S.? ... honestly, the majority is reasonably happy with this reality.

Can the same be said about Taiwan? What does the majority of the Taiwanese want? ... or does that matter to the ideology behind a communist state?

The bottom line is this ... what point is there for the forced occupation or subscription to beliefs which are not honestly felt.

There are words for this ... slavery, subjugation, empire ... where obviously might makes right as opposed to the ideal of might for right.

... and as for the age of civilizations, for the purpose of this argument, it means little that 500 years ago, x civilization was the preeminent global power ... the practical upshot is who is presently in the postion of global dominance, and who is rising to such a position.

... and finally, in regards to Taiwan ... the reality of the situation is that, obviously, the U.S. would prefer not to get involved due to trade politics ... but a fight for principle rarely involves what one WANTS to do ... rather what one HAS to do in order to maintain any sense of ideological integrity and respect by fellow countries of like mind.



posted on Oct, 18 2005 @ 11:54 PM
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"Do you think the American public would support a war against China, "

We are already fighting a war against the CCP. Why shouldn't it continue?



posted on Oct, 19 2005 @ 01:13 AM
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Originally posted by The Middle Kingdom
Find an example where China invaded another country AFTER 1949! Can't find one? Ya I thought so your arguements are flawed with your single minded determination in your quest to hate the People's Republic.


Are you for real


*cough* Vietnam
*cough* India
*cough* South Korea (till they got kicked back over the 38th)
*cough* Cambodia

Lets face it as well one butcher begats another. China was insturmental in propping up Saloth Sar and the blood of the killings fields lie on the Middle Kingdoms hands, but I doubt there is any lost sleep over it. if you are willing to wipe out millions in the cultural revolution, whats a few million Cambodians eh?



posted on Oct, 19 2005 @ 04:59 AM
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Originally posted by FredT
*cough* South Korea (till they got kicked back over the 38th)


No we didn't only in some regions



*cough* Cambodia


Cambodia?



posted on Oct, 19 2005 @ 08:18 AM
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FredT please recal my previous post which answered these questions in advance

"But I won't feed into your bullsh*t, China has never attacked another country except in self defence, or back in the early fifties when we were unifying our country and eliminating the warlords and bandits.

We only attacked Vietnam when they invaded Cambodia, an ally who we had treaies with, we made our show of force and withdrew and relations improved afterwards, it was not an invasion, and I chellenge you to find any moments in Chinese history where China invaded. another country excluding any time under Kublai Khan or Ghengis Khan.

And I don't mean invaded in the terms you'ld wildly put its meaning, I mean invaded with the intent DELLIBERATE intent to invade another country with the goal of total and complete conquest and subjugation or liberation of its people.

The Sino-Indian war was not an invasion it was a border skirmish where we kicked they're asses, the Russo-Sino War was also a border skirmish over a couple of hills, and finally Vietnam was also a border skirmish at most.

If you try to sneak Korea into this we stayed out of their war and decided to leave it for Koreans to settle when you send UN and US troops into there we had no choice but to defend North Korea or else we feared that America would gain our doorstep, and to counter American aggression in the far east.

So tell me, can you think of a single instance where China INVADED another country form 1949 to 2005? No, I didn't think so, you have no evidence that the Chinese have ever engaged in such an action, and without that historical precedent you have no proof that China ever will invade another country.

America on the other hand has invaded.... from 1949 onwards.... Korea, Vietnam, interfeared in Chinese internal affiars, Guatamala, Niacagura, Venuzela, Haiti, Panama, El Salvadore, assasinated politicians in brazil, keeps military bases around the world, currently ingages in international terrorism upon who nations and peoples, invaded Afghanistan (though I agree it was valid in that case but completely bungled it and with criminal negligence commited friendly fire and allowed Usoma Bin Laden to escape) and Iraq. And has a history of overturning democratically elected governments and replacing them with right wing corrupt dictators just because the party that was elected was socialist or leaned towards the left!

If you doubt me read Noam Chanksy and it seems to me your country has engaged in many international terrorism and commited countless warcrimes, do not complain about a country that has done nothing wrong internationally! when your country has commited countless so called "evils". "



posted on Oct, 19 2005 @ 08:58 AM
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Originally posted by chinawhite
No we didn't only in some regions



how about adding Tibet as well?
China does have a history as well. the only reason China could only invade in nearby regions is because they could only invade nearby regions.

[edit on 19-10-2005 by deltaboy]

[edit on 19-10-2005 by deltaboy]



posted on Oct, 19 2005 @ 09:26 AM
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You guys know you can't find any proof for your arguments and are not able to argue with "The middle kingdom", so you seldom response to his whole article but try to pick out several sentences and stick to it.

Originally posted by deltaboy

Originally posted by chinawhite
No we didn't only in some regions



how about adding Tibet as well?
China does have a history as well. the only reason China could only invade in nearby regions is because they could only invade nearby regions.

[edit on 19-10-2005 by deltaboy]

[edit on 19-10-2005 by deltaboy]


[edit on 19-10-2005 by google_abcd]



posted on Oct, 19 2005 @ 09:30 AM
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Originally posted by google_abcd
You guys know you are not able to argue with "three kingdom"(no proof only arguments), so you seldom response to his whole article but like picking out several sentences and try to stick to it.


dude u can look at China's past since 1949. i dont need to show proof wen u can see China's occupation of Tibet for example. unless u dont know about it.



posted on Oct, 19 2005 @ 10:16 AM
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Tibet was a vassal state to the various Imperial Dynasties for centuries, you know nothing about Chinese history if you think uniting Tibet with the rest of China was in someway wrong, think about it. Tibet is geographically part of China and was considered part of the original republic of China in the 20's and was included in various maps.

When the CCP won the civil war it is only natural that we claim any territory that was and is a part of Chinese history and herritage. It was not an invasion of a soverign power but the reclaiming of land that was desiegnated as ours by all the major powers in the 20's and 30's.

Next, as I said allow me reclarify, find an example of where China invaded a foreign nation with the intent of conquest and used sufficient force to be considered an invasion AND was fought with an official declaration of war.

As in a war of China invading a sovereign nation where the Geneva Conventions apply and both sides reconized it as a such said war.

Tibet is not a valid example because of circumstances of Chinese history.



posted on Oct, 19 2005 @ 10:34 AM
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rumours:

1. American f-117 squadrons just pulled out of Korea. They claimed they had completed their training missions, specifically speaking, to get a feel of the landscape and environment there. In the meantime, there are rumours that China had concluded the testing of their anti-stealth radar system against those F-117s. Results unknown.

2. Yuan class submarine is rumoured to be a fair match of Los Angeles class, but not as good as virginia class.

3. Chinese submarines have been conducting routine exercises such as shooting pictures of the habours in Kuan and hawaii, not to mention the important ports in Taiwan and Japan.

4. There are rumours that China's nuke war heads are 2300++, 1800 of them are for strategic purposes, the rest for tactic use.

5. A reliable source claims that over 800 members of PLA's special forces have had secret training missions to Taiwan - in groups or alone, they find a way to get in, take a look at a few specific locations, and find their way out. (Amazing! Don't understand how they did it!.)

6. Foreign commercial ships (of undisclosed nationalities) have been spreading hundreds of sonar detectors all over the near sea and the crucial sea routes off Chinese shores (an effective way to detect Chinese submarines), and Chinese coastal guards (posing as fishing boats) have been able to find and collected hundreds of them. The fastest record: a sonar device was netted up only two hours after it was placed. Chinese coastal guards even have a routine job of checking and removing the passive data collecting devices planted and made attached to the fibre-optical cables (for internet linkage and so on). Meantime, Chinese are planting their own devices.

7. In 2001, China announced that most of its border police were replaced by regular troops. Many believe it was a gesture to North Korea's nuclear program and the parties involved. The message was actually not for North Korea, or any Korea related issue, but for the US. At that time, Thailand and Burma were in a large scale border conflict, the US had a 2000-strong special forces secretly landed in Thailand, ready to overthrow the Burma military regime. In response, China moved two divisions of forces of Chengdu Military region into positions near the Burma border.

First lets talk about the border disputes between Thailand and Burma. The Thai were able to make gains at the beginning, Burmese government troops suffered a series of defeats. Then Burmese government sent envoys to the notorious military factions in the border areas (Some of them were tribal forces, others were offsprings of KMT troops and new CHinese immigrants), asking for help and offering deals. These factions and tribes have been in de facto independence for many years, and their loyalties are more to Chinese government than to Burmese government. After consulting their Chinese brothers, one faction (of more Chinese blood) took the deal offered by Burmese goverment and took over the fighting. Thai forces (equipped superiorly) were quickly defeated and driven back to were they started. It is said that the leader of the faction brought a map to the Burmese government, he pointed the map to the burmese generals and boasted:"I 'v done what you wanted me to do. If you want some other places on this map, and give me a new deal that is good enough, I'll go get 'em. You want Bankok?"

You guess what was this guy's next stop? It was Dali, Yunnan province of CHina. He went to the Chinese military command there and did a debriefing (also collect some bonus).

The border conflicts quieted down. The US took the message, and quietly pulled out the special force.

--------------------------------------------------
I don't garrantee the authenticity of these stories, just want to let people on this forum know that there are plenty of of these rumours and gossips on Chinese forums. LOL!






[edit on 19-10-2005 by puri]



posted on Oct, 19 2005 @ 02:48 PM
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Originally posted by The Middle Kingdom
Tibet is not a valid example because of circumstances of Chinese history.


not valid? then u must be trying to erase one of China's bad history.


en.wikipedia.org...


While there is little dispute that Tibet was once an independent country, there is intense dispute over the legitimacy of the PRC's rule over Tibet today.

Since 1959 the former government of Tibet, led by the 14th Dalai Lama, has maintained a government in exile at Dharamsala, in northern India. It claims sovereignty over Tibet, with borders defined as the entirety of what it terms "Historic Tibet", although it controlled only about half of that area before 1959. The Government of Tibet claims Tibet to be a distinct nation independent before conquest by the Mongol Empire (Yuan Dynasty) 700 years ago; between the fall of the Mongol Empire in 1368 and subjugation by the Manchu Empire (Qing Dynasty) in 1720; and again between the fall of the Manchu Empire in 1912 and incorporation into the PRC in 1951. Moreover, even during the periods of nominal subjugation to the Mongol and Manchu Empires, Tibet was largely self-governing. As such, it views current PRC rule in Tibet as colonial and illegitimate, motivated solely by the natural resources and strategic value of Tibet, and in gross violation of both Tibet's historical status as an independent country and the right of Tibetan people to self-determination. It also points to the autocratic and divide-and-rule policies imposed by the PRC, as well as what it claims to be assimilationist policies of the PRC, regarding those as an example of Chinese imperialism bent at destroying Tibet's distinct ethnic makeup, culture, and identity, thereby cementing it as an indivisible part of China.


www.friends-of-tibet.org.nz...

During the reign of King Songtsen Gampo (629-49) Tibet became a great military power and her armies marched across Central Asia. He promoted Buddhism in Tibet and sent one of his ministers and other young Tibetans to India for study. He first took a Tibetan princess from the Shangshung King as his wife and then obtained a Nepalese consort. After invading the Chinese Empire he also obtained a Chinese princess as one of his wives. The two latter wives have been given prominence in the religious history of Tibet because of their services to Buddhism.

During the reign of King Trisong Detsen (755-97) the Tibetan Empire was at its peak and its armies invaded China and several Central Asian countries. In 763 the Tibetans seized the then Chinese capital at Ch'ang-an (present day Xian). As the Chinese Emperor had fled, the Tibetans appointed a new Emperor. This memorable victory has been preserved for posterity in the Zhol Doring (stone pillar) in Lhasa and reads, in part:


omni.cc.purdue.edu...

The Tibetan was the descendents of a male Monkey and a female Rock-demon. This was probably invented by outsiders when they witness the Tibetan custom of covering or painting their faces to protect themselves from harsh weather conditions. Later on, in the writing of the great 5th Dalai Lama, the story changed the Monkey to Avalokitesvara, a disciple of Buddha and known as GuanYin by Han people (Jiaga in Tibetan) as a goddess, the Venus of Han. Moreover, the Rock-demon became a goddess (Tara or Mother-savior, Jeo-Tuu Muu) in Buddhism). In fact, the great 5th Dalai Lama further claimed that the Tibetan King, Srong-tsan-gam-po (Songtsen Gampo), was a reincarnation of Avalokitesvara, and his Han wife, princess Wen-Cheng, was the reincarnation of the goddess Tara or Mother-savior. This becomes an important story of Tibet. Even today, the palace of Dalai Lama in Lhasa is called `Potala Palace'. Note that `Potala' is the residence of Avalokitesvara which in Han Character is `Putou', and there is an island in the East China Sea with the name Putou San which is supposed to be the residence of GuanYin.


www.travelchinaguide.com...

Legend tells the Tibetan history starts with a monkey and a Siren. The monkey was sent by Avalokiteshvara (Chenrezi) for religious retreat on the high plateau. The siren managed to persuade him to marry her. Having the permission of Avalokiteshvara, they married and had 6 children. They were believed to be the ancestor of the Tibetan people. However, archeology and geology discovery makes ethnologists believe Tibetans are decedants of aborigines and nomadic Qiang tribes. According to archeological discovery, Tibetan history can be traced back 4,000 years.
However, the historic records show that not until the 7th century can Tibetans be recognized as a race of people. The rising Yarlung Dynasty (Tubo Kingdom) unified Tibet and became an aggressive power. Inter-court marriages were adopted for political reasons. Nepal and China married their Princesses to Songtsen Gampo, the outstanding king of Tibetan people. The two Princesses brought with them peace and also Buddhism which Tibetans readily converted to. Songtsen Gampo embraced the religion. The first transmission of Buddhism came to the snow land. The king's successors followed the religion also and in 779 King Trisong Detsen, set up the first Buddhist temple in Tibet. Samye Monastery and Buddhism were recognized as State religion. The Great religious teacher, Padmasambhava was invited to Tibet. The Buddhism influence spread as the expansion of the Tibetan empire continued. The indigenous Bon was not satisfied with the popularity of Buddhism in the royal family. In 836, King Ralpachen was assassinated and Lang Darma was installed as King, who believed Bon and objected to Buddhism. Severe persecution against Buddhists ended the first Buddhism transmission. Lang Darma, in 842, was assassinated also by a Buddhist and the Yarlong Dynasty collapsed and Tibet became decentralized principalities struggling for power.


it seems to me that Tibet was in fact an empire once and even invaded China long ago. since then maybe China decided to invade back for revenge. Chinese people have long memories u know.



posted on Oct, 19 2005 @ 02:50 PM
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Originally posted by bodebliss
"Do you think the American public would support a war against China, "

We are already fighting a war against the CCP. Why shouldn't it continue?


What war?

It is the U.S. and their love for cheap goods that is making China strong.



posted on Oct, 19 2005 @ 03:12 PM
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Exactly, but our trade is also allowing you to keep your massive debt and not collapse we depend on each other, may even become a single national entity like in the science fiction show Firefly and its movie "Serenity".

I'll comment on the Tibet issue as soon as I do some more reserch.




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