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Can China Invade Taiwan?

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posted on Oct, 16 2005 @ 08:43 PM
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Well said middle kingdom.

A war cannot be won without the will of the American people, and do you honestly think that we would support a war against China for what? What would be the reason now? Nearly half of us don't support the war in Iraq and we haev lost roughly 2000 men. Fighting a war (for no reason) against China would have a devastating amount of casulaties. DO YOU HONESTLY THINK THAT THE AMERICAN PUBLIC WOULD SUPPORT A WAR AGAINST CHINA?! HONESTLY?! Ask yourself. And a war against China wuold mean a draft. There is no way we can fight a war with volunteer soldiers, we barely have enough for Iraq. A war against one of the strongest nations + draft? HONESTLY, have we forgot Vietnam already?

[edit on 16-10-2005 by k4rupt]




posted on Oct, 16 2005 @ 10:19 PM
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middle (CCP) kingdom,

I was only supporting my view for a strong defense for the beleagured population of a free Taiwan.


"I seriously don't believe that the pan blue party sold its loyatly to us in the way you think of it, I think they simply long for unification with they're brothers. And once the economy and political situation reaches a point that its compatible with the Chinese living in Taiwan then there will be peaceful unification."

KMT is an alien regime, murders, thieves, and they should just go back to "Heil Hitler" China and jump into bed with the CCP. Oh forgive me. They've already done that!

Taiwan is not the KMT's to give away. They don't and won't ever own Taiwan, bandits and liars that they are. Middle kingdom, you try to make an evil dictatorship palatable, but I can imagine Satan making Hell sound like an interesting place. Aw, what the hell, why don't I just take a vacation and check into one of your goolags.



Originally posted by k4rupt
Well said middle kingdom.

DO YOU HONESTLY THINK THAT THE AMERICAN PUBLIC WOULD SUPPORT A WAR AGAINST CHINA?! HONESTLY?!


Well last time I checked they were ready and getting more ready all the time.



posted on Oct, 17 2005 @ 04:34 AM
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Dont know why u always consider China as Evil or Satan or something like that. Have u ever been China before? Or HAVE U EVER BEEN A CHINESE BEFORE??? What u said is not normal argument anymore. It is insult!!! To all Chinese.

I come from China and I have normal middle class family, I used to earn around 800$ per month before I went abroad for study. My family has a car and a dog, as happy as the most family around the world (at least the Europe). Actually, I don’t feel any better in Europe than my home.

My foreign language is German. Therefore, I cant express my self as fluent as u guys do. That’s y I didn’t post anything before, but what bodebliss said is just simply not true and unacceptable. I cant help my self to write down this.

In fact, the most of Chinese don’t care about the either dictatorship or democracy, the thing we believe is “Is our life getting better?” every year? even every day. As far as CCP have done. The answer is definitely “YES”, because our lives are much much better than our parents or grandparents. That’s fair enough for us!!! BECAUSE OUR SON OR GRANDSON WILL HAVE A BETTER LIFE THAN US. U r American, u tell me is that enough for u? so stop spouting lies and stop insulting people!!!


[edit on 17-10-2005 by o1010101]

[edit on 17-10-2005 by o1010101]



posted on Oct, 17 2005 @ 04:40 AM
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Originally posted by o1010101
Dont know why u always consider China as Evil or Satan or something like that. Have u ever been China before? Or HAVE U EVER BEEN A CHINESE BEFORE??? What u said is not normal argument anymore. It is insult!!! To all Chinese.


Welcome to the oh so long debate o1010101.

In responce to your question I have been to Taiwan once and the rebel province also known as mainland China as well. While I myself am not Chinese, my wife is Vietnamese / Chinese.

While Chinese people themselves are not evil, thier government is at best Evil. Just ask you average Tibetian, protestors that were massacred at Tienneman, how many Falun Gong members have been systematicaly killed? etc etc etc.



posted on Oct, 17 2005 @ 07:00 AM
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o1010101,

May you continue to have a beautiful existence in your China.

The CCP is a dictatorial regime and being that they should like gangsters not be allowed to associate with good hard working honest people. The problem is they cause needless problems because they sit at the table and make abnormal demands and say yeah we are criminals , but we hold hostage the future of 1.3 billion people, so you have to deal thru us. The chinese should be the master of their homeland. Someday they will stand up and demand this. I hope.



posted on Oct, 17 2005 @ 07:38 AM
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Before I explain, I want to let u guys know something. There is kind of paid-writer in internet. Their job is spread the slander of China and exaggerate the negative aspects of China in infinite dimension. I know these because I am a Chinese in Europe and once someone (use to be my friend) has come to my face and ask can I do those things for them. I didn’t ask who is behind him. But I know. I don’t want to say it here. Because I think u guys wouldn’t believe this story. What I want to tell u is those guy are paid to lie to u!!!

Falun Gong is the most ridiculous!!!

So, I don’t think u had read their “Bible”, I do!!! Do u believe Li Hongzhi is a god of whole universe? Do u believe no needs go to hospital when u r ill, just have some “Fa” cure, then u will be fine. etc. etc. etc. He does write down those into their “Bible”!!!

Tibet, ermmmmmmmm….

I notice that u r specially care about Tibet, but I cant tell u anymore, there r lots of resource in internet explain the relationship between Tibet and China in the history. But the point is which one u want to “see”, it’s totally up to u choice. Anyway, the fact is Tibet is a part of PR. China now and there is nothing u or me can do about it. BTW, the highest railway in the world has been completed in this month,
news.bbc.co.uk... China has announced the completion of the first railway line to Tibet - one of the world's highest train routes.
So I think CCP has done some good things for Tibet, right?

This is great news for Tibetan. But if I am kind of paid-writer as I mentioned before, what I would say??? Erh……I would say, “This train way construction is for colonizing!!! It’s the evidence of CCP colonize Tibet!!!” But if there is no program (can be economic, academic, any kind of program) concerning Tibet, I would say, “CCP is evil!!! They govern Tibet but never care about it!!! etc.etc.etc.
See, everything has good or bad aspects, but I just want speak the bad one loudly. And u just follow my logic that is CCP is evil!!! Anything they did is wrong!!! And Chinese people don’t like CCP!!! They wanna democracy desperately!!! I tell u the truth, doesn’t matter u believe it or not. IT IS NOT TURE!!! It is hard to believe for u guys, but it is true.
China has been weak in last 100 years and CCP is the only one make Chinese people can feel better, yet. In fact, I personally think democracy is not suitable for China now. Because the centralization, China have enough resource to solve problem fast and decisively, like that SHENZHOU 6. and just look at the GDP growth rate, how can u say CCP is not good for China???



posted on Oct, 17 2005 @ 07:48 AM
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Originally posted by bodebliss
The CCP is a dictatorial regime and being that they should like gangsters not be allowed to associate with good hard working honest people. The problem is they cause needless problems because they sit at the table and make abnormal demands and say yeah we are criminals , but we hold hostage the future of 1.3 billion people, so you have to deal thru us.


dont tell me u really believe these! where do u get those Opinion from? tell me about it! i really wanna know!



posted on Oct, 17 2005 @ 08:00 AM
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Originally posted by o1010101
Before I explain, I want to let u guys know something. There is kind of paid-writer in internet. Their job is spread the slander of China and exaggerate the negative aspects of China in infinite dimension.


Man if I am supposed to get payed for this my check is really late
. However that goes both ways IMHO. The communist government of China no doubt places its own propaganda agents out on the net as well. its a two way street.



Falun Gong is the most ridiculous!!! So, I don’t think u had read their “Bible”, I do!!! Do u believe Li Hongzhi is a god of whole universe?


Be that as it may and if it is such a joke, how come the communists in power are brutaly supressing it? If its a joke like say Scientology, why even view it as a threat? I could easily say a godless society is a joke as well but I won't cause I am an athiest


Anyway, the fact is Tibet is a part of PR. China now and there is nothing u or me can do about it.


No doubt there have been construction in Tibet and the like. However, I was refering to the brutal repression of its citizens etc.

Tibet: Monk Spirited Away by Security Forces

Tibet: Monk Leaves Prison a Broken Man

Tibet: Another ‘Singing Nun’ Home But Not Free

However, if you are sitting in some Bejing Ministry of Propaganda computer terminal you will be tapping away with your scripts as well.

Yes, your GDP has gone up and you have made it to space, but at what cost? The people, the environment? what?



posted on Oct, 17 2005 @ 08:44 AM
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I just notice that u r the moderator, how can u involve in discussion? Don’t u afraid ur authority will misleading readers? And u can have a look of my IP, see whither I am in Beijing or not.

Look, I am 26 years old and I am in Germany now. I am studying Environmental Management in Bremen. I am fully responsible for what I have said, because it is true. I think in this thread, there r another Chinese. More than 3 people. And I found u don’t believe what we (Chinese) said, nothing but truth. But try to convince people u (American) know everything about China, especially the “bad” thing, particular Tibet. How come?



posted on Oct, 17 2005 @ 08:56 AM
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Originally posted by o1010101
I just notice that u r the moderator, how can u involve in discussion? Don’t u afraid ur authority will misleading readers? And u can have a look of my IP, see whither I am in Beijing or not.


Does not matter if you are in Bejing or Germany. I was just trying to make a point about it.

In regards to my being a Moderator here on ATS: Here at ATS the moderators activly participate in the debates and discussions. We are bound by the same rules and standards as other members. So we can and do voice our opinions regularly. I know you are one of our newer members but as you look around at the other forums, you will see everybody participates here including the Board owners and Administration.

This thread also will explain things:
Moderators Are People Too. (and they have opinions)



posted on Oct, 17 2005 @ 12:07 PM
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I think considering that Bodebliss being proven wrong repeatedly and caught with not only his pants down but with his hand down there as well on several occasions by lying or giving incorrect evidence has I think as reverted back to his troll like ways by repeatedly saying "CCP IS EVIL!" and of course using exagerated or misinformed opinions from biased sources as evidence.

You mention Falun Gong? My Binary friend here mentions how ridiculas they are, Frederic mentions a comparrison to Scientology and if they aren't a threat why not ignore them like in the States?

I'll tell you why, our government does not like nonesense, Scientology was a religion created By L Ron Hubbard to make money, and he is quoted to have said the best way to make money is to make your own religion! And only your constitution prevents you from outright banning them and they're own unconstitution acts, for example whenever they have a member that leaves and says bad things about them, they make hundreds of frivolus lawsuits to get her to shut up (and this actually happened but I can't supply a link atm, i read in a book from library).

(oh also, now don't take what I say about Fal as my opinion of them I never read they're book and they'res the possibility Binary (easier to remember) misinterpreted something about god going through whats his name, however it probly is the case that Falun Gong is a cult and the Government is right to arrest them)

In China a group that participates in illegal activity to prevent they're fellow citizens from living a normal life they are classed as TERRORISTS that is what they are utilizing exegerated claims and false promises to lure in the gullible and then when they try to leave ruins they're lives and the lives of their friends and familes, such cults are terrorizing hard working citizens and deserve to be routed out and shot for they're terrorist acts.

And once more, why should Taiwan be "free"? They are Chinese, they speak a Chinese language, they share our culture and our history, we are only separated due to political circumstance and outside intervention in a civil war. For doing that the Americans are in my view no better then the Japanese in the Mukden Incident and they actions in Iraq, Gautemala, Niacagura, Haiti, Cuba all points to it.

And when Formossa refuses to buy weapons at DOUBLE they're amrket costs 32 times in row, America should have backed down, but no they're trying to force the Chinese living on the island of formossa to buy it by threatening not to defend they're island should the People's Republic invade.

Now tell me this, whats sounds more reasonable? If you declare Independance we invade or if you don't buy these old toys I won't protect you from the bully?

At least with the case of the PRC we need to do it to protect our national security and territorial soverignty, in fact we have never done anything really to invade Formossa we've been doing alot of effort to improve relations trying to gain peaceful unification. America is 6000 miles away and has no such excuse.

I thinks its irrelvent if Fred is a mod or not, as long as he adhears to the rules of conduct its fair ball, think of it how stupid would you have to be to think the actions of a single admin determins the political opinion of an entire forum? Nyet I say! (Practising russian should we ever invade them or if they ever ally us or if they invade us, you never know
)

Ok, China is not Nazi Germany we were never allied with the facists, we may have an Central Government using authoritive methods but our roots are in Scientific Socialism. And comparring China to Hitler is unfair and possibly racist, your an America from... Cleveland? Wow how big is they're Chinatown? I bet you think we're no better then waiters and bag boys.

I could make a much better Hitler comparrisan between Germany and... America! 9/11 --> Reichstag fire, and Enabling Act --> Patriot Act, and finally Gitmo --> Dachau Political Concentration camp.

Don't make comparrisions that are A incorrect and B more easily applied to you.

Next you make the assumption that our politicians are no better then organized crime bosses. hmm wasn't JFK's father in the mob doing smuggling runs? Also most of our officers, political commisars, and politicians CAME FROM HUMBLE BEGINNINGS! Mao was a peasant, most of his comrades were peasants infact I think peasants made up about 90% of the revolution!

China is being led to a new future and if you checked my link to people's daily you'ld know that China is heading to a better future with the change in development modes in the upcoming eleventh 5 Year Plan (2006-2010) (I know looks like 4 years about its like half a year to make all the changes and plan everything).

Mobsters don't care about who they step on, the CCP cares about helping the people and invests billions to help the rural areas and to help the people in cities.

So ya, if you don't know about who your talking about and what your talking about theh don't talk your only making us Asians look smarter.

[edit on 17-10-2005 by The Middle Kingdom]



posted on Oct, 17 2005 @ 12:34 PM
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Btw, I edited my above post about a millions times so upon reading THIS post reread the above to make sure you got the correct version.



posted on Oct, 17 2005 @ 12:45 PM
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"And once more, why should Taiwan be "free"? They are Chinese, they speak a Chinese language, "

There are 300,000 ethnic chinese in Vietnam. Is Vietnam next?

There was a situation where ethnic chinese store owner in Malaysia were having their stores burned and they were being killed. Is Malaysia next on China's list?



posted on Oct, 17 2005 @ 12:52 PM
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Originally posted by FredT
In regards to my being a Moderator here on ATS: Here at ATS the moderators activly participate in the debates and discussions. We are bound by the same rules and standards as other members. So we can and do voice our opinions regularly. I know you are one of our newer members but as you look around at the other forums, you will see everybody participates here including the Board owners and Administration.


its OK! at beginning, I just feel if a game ruler participate in the game, it might be unfair to others. But now i know...



posted on Oct, 17 2005 @ 06:39 PM
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""And once more, why should Taiwan be "free"? They are Chinese, they speak a Chinese language, "

There are 300,000 ethnic chinese in Vietnam. Is Vietnam next?

There was a situation where ethnic chinese store owner in Malaysia were having their stores burned and they were being killed. Is Malaysia next on China's list?"

That is so ridiculas that I feel like going to America in a T-98 JUST to blow up your house! And if American leadership thinks just like you I might just get my chance.


You do realize that there was 1 American killed in Panama and YOUR government invaded, so can't we invade Mayasia for 300,000 chinese?

But I won't feed into your bullsh*t, China has never attacked another country except in self defence, or back in the early fifties when we were unifying our country and eliminating the warlords and bandits.

We only attacked Vietnam when they invaded Cambodia, an ally who we had treaies with, we made our show of force and withdrew and relations improved afterwards, it was not an invasion, and I chellenge you to find any moments in Chinese history where China invaded. another country excluding any time under Kublai Khan or Ghengis Khan.

And I don't mean invaded in the terms you'ld wildly put its meaning, I mean invaded with the intent DELLIBERATE intent to invade another country with the goal of total and complete conquest and subjugation or liberation of its people.

The Sino-Indian war was not an invasion it was a border skirmish where we kicked they're asses, the Russo-Sino War was also a border skirmish over a couple of hills, and finally Vietnam was also a border skirmish at most.

If you try to sneak Korea into this we stayed out of their war and decided to leave it for Koreans to settle when you send UN and US troops into there we had no choice but to defend North Korea or else we feared that America would gain our doorstep, and to counter American aggression in the far east.

So tell me, can you think of a single instance where China INVADED another country form 1949 to 2005? No, I didn't think so, you have no evidence that the Chinese have ever engaged in such an action, and without that historical precedent you have no proof that China ever will invade another country.

America on the other hand has invaded.... from 1949 onwards.... Korea, Vietnam, interfeared in Chinese internal affiars, Guatamala, Niacagura, Venuzela, Haiti, Panama, El Salvadore, assasinated politicians in brazil, keeps military bases around the world, currently ingages in international terrorism upon who nations and peoples, invaded Afghanistan (though I agree it was valid in that case but completely bungled it and with criminal negligence commited friendly fire and allowed Usoma Bin Laden to escape) and Iraq. And has a history of overturning democratically elected governments and replacing them with right wing corrupt dictators just because the party that was elected was socialist or leaned towards the left!

If you doubt me read Noam Chanksy and it seems to me your country has engaged in many international terrorism and commited countless warcrimes, do not complain about a country that has done nothing wrong internationally! when your country has commited countless so called "evils".

You are a hypocrit, you are either racist or stupid, you hate anything that isn't American or your ideals and will attack anything that isn't in your little world as being right, you are MISINFORMED on many things and obsolutely refuse to consider outside sources whem forming an opinion but instead you cling onto right wing radical anti chinese online newspapers or anti unification minority newspapers that are obviously biased.

Bodebliss, if you and Oct and that other guy keep spreading lies, rumors, propoganda in the hopes that your government will stop trading with China in the hopes that you can maintain your Empire's suporitority over the world... then well geus what, its not working and it NEVER HAS and NEVER WILL considering that your government a dully elected government keeps ignoring YOUR opinion and continues to engage in profitable buisness and is making some sort of effort to work towards a solution to problems, just as the PRC is bending over backwards to help the American people while not hurting themsleves as well and have been trying to work towards compromise again and again.

You turn around and call us agents... well geuss what, it doesn't apply to us, all of us including a moderator or two has been constantly using ourside sources from neutral and western sources to combat you and geuss what? We're winning, not because there is alot of us in fact I think there's only about 5 of us in total who are defending Chinese mainland policies in some form but because we're correct, we are in the right, because we're not slandering your nation with no evidence we sight perfectly accurate information from ok sources that aren't full of bias, we aren't stating our "theories" of what we think is right from speculation, we speak from the TRUTH something you don't seem to understand. And we sight valid evidence to support our arguements.

The PRC I know is not perfect I have enough access to information to know that but hey! geuss what no government is perfect the point is to stuggle to make it as close to perfect as possible though determination and hardwork and as its standing now each generation of Chinese has had major barriers to cross but we cross them! Each generation is enjoying a better life then his ancestors before them.

I may be harsh, I humbly apologize and beg for forgiveness since I was raised to be polite. But you must recognize that I speak the truth in these matters and if I am wrong then I will take it like a man and will critize myself for my errors and improve myself. However, in return you must also critize yourself if you are wrong and strive to improve yourself to seek harmony.

"When we see men of a contrary character, we should turn inwards and examine ourselves." -Confucius

"Be not ashamed of mistakes and thus make them crimes." -Confucius



posted on Oct, 17 2005 @ 06:40 PM
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Originally posted by The Middle Kingdom
And once more, why should Taiwan be "free"? They are Chinese, they speak a Chinese language, they share our culture and our history, ...


Ok, man, that is insulting.

Are you saying that Taiwanese shouldn't be free and need to be locked up?

And your reason for that is "they are Chinese?" What the heck is your problem? If Chinese don't want to be free, that is fine with me. But many people in Taiwan wants to be free.

And I don't care if China is good, evil, or ugly. I don't really care if it is like Nazi or The Great Britain. I don't even care if it is democratic or dictatorial. Those are the matter the Chinese people should worry about. All I want is a free and independent Taiwan, that is all.

But know that a lot of bad image of China are created by China's actions, as someone already mentioned. Don't just blame on others.


[edit on 17-10-2005 by twchang]



posted on Oct, 17 2005 @ 07:18 PM
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you obviously don't understand the conversation, "look beneath the underneath" i used quotation marks around that particular word for the context of the discussion, I don't mean that when we unify they'll all become prisioners, when we unify (not an if but a when) they'll become equal citizens of the people's republic so don't put words in my mouth.

As of certain polls conducted by the [sarcasm] "Taiwanese People" [/sarcasm] only TEN PERCENT of the population wanted to separate ONLY TEN!

The Taiwanese people don't want to become independant, they're ok with things as they are and are hoping to unify when things become suitable for them and for us. Whyd o you think we're putting so much blood and sweat into improving cross straight relations??? The CCP wants peaceul unification, because its is not a skilled general who wins a battle but a excellent general is who wins a battle by not fighting. War is bad and is always the last resort.

Please take some time to make sure you understand my full meaning when you take in my words.



posted on Oct, 17 2005 @ 07:43 PM
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Originally posted by The Middle Kingdom
you obviously don't understand the conversation, "look beneath the underneath" i used quotation marks around that particular word for the context of the discussion, I don't mean that when we unify they'll all become prisioners, when we unify (not an if but a when) they'll become equal citizens of the people's republic so don't put words in my mouth.


That is why it is very insulting. You don't seem to respect other people's choices. If Taiwanese wants to be "free," that is their choice, it doesn't matter what type of "free" it is.



As of certain polls conducted by the [sarcasm] "Taiwanese People" [/sarcasm] only TEN PERCENT of the population wanted to separate ONLY TEN!

The Taiwanese people don't want to become independant, they're ok with things as they are and are hoping to unify when things become suitable for them and for us. Whyd o you think we're putting so much blood and sweat into improving cross straight relations??? The CCP wants peaceul unification, because its is not a skilled general who wins a battle but a excellent general is who wins a battle by not fighting. War is bad and is always the last resort.

Please take some time to make sure you understand my full meaning when you take in my words.


This is the latest poll I can find:

en.wikipedia.org...

"After the October 10 speech by president Chen in 2004, support for independence reached new heights. Polls suggest that nearly 30% of Taiwanese residents now support independence, and an even higher percentage would support the construction of a Republic of Taiwan in 2008, as the final step after the proposed constitutional revisions in 2006. Support for One Country, Two Systems, the proposed solution by the PRC, is between 5-7%. The majority (just below 60%) still support the status quo, which is to leave Taiwan's status exactly the way that it is and to leave the issue of whether to become independent or reunify for a future date. One advantage of this option is that it avoids the necessity of defining exactly what Taiwan's status really is."

If China doesn't threaten to use force, what do you think will happen to the % supporting independence?

I am not sure why you are so sure what all Taiwanese people think. Even as a Taiwanese I can't say it for certain. But it doesn't matter, I support Taiwan's independence. That is my opinion.


[edit on 17-10-2005 by twchang]

[edit on 17-10-2005 by twchang]



posted on Oct, 17 2005 @ 08:19 PM
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Originally posted by o1010101
its OK! at beginning, I just feel if a game ruler participate in the game, it might be unfair to others. But now i know...


Good
feel free to express yourself but do stay within the terms and conditions of the site. I have to play by the rules as well. As you can the TheMiddleKingdom and ChinaWhite whom I don't think I have ever agreed with have no qualms about posting in this thread despite my presence and nor should you



posted on Oct, 17 2005 @ 09:32 PM
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Originally posted by bodebliss
middle (CCP) kingdom,

Well last time I checked they were ready and getting more ready all the time.


What are you talking about? This has nothing to do with my question. My question is Do you honestly think the American public would support a war against China for no reason.


And since the Communist revolution, do you know how much improvement there is in the life of an an average Chinese citizen. DO YOU? Just read some books about life in China prior to WWII and compare it to now. The improvement is TREMENDOUS and no one can deny this.


[edit on 17-10-2005 by k4rupt]



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