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Can China Invade Taiwan?

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posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 10:22 PM
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Most EDUCATED people before 1945 could speak two languages: Taiwanese and JAPANESE, NOT Mandarin. To this day, most older people in Taiwan can only speak fragmented Mandarin. My mother in law doesn't speak Mandarin at all, and the same is true for most of her elderly neighbors.


As you said EDUCATED. what percentage were educated?




LIE! Taiwanese is a dialect of MINNANESE, NOT Hakka. Both Taiwanese and Hakka are spoken in Taiwan and the two languages are NOT mutually intelligible.


NO ITS NOT..........

I speak hakka/hokkien and i can understand anything you ask me.

I dont care what language it came




What, are you really a Taiwanese traitor?


hahaha. defiantly not


i come from fujian. im part hokkien/hakka from my fathers side and fujian(Henan). I have family in taiwan that had been there since 1870.

i also speak a local language called Putian

Thats the reason why i think taiwanese are the same. i dont know why you claim there is a difference




More and more people are now referring to "Waishengren" as "Shinjhumin" 新住民 1/8 of the population isn't much compared to 7/8 that were already here. It seems that their rights to a sovereign state should outweigh those who came here and denied Taiwanese basic rights for decades.


Its actually 2/8 when they first came into taiwan.

I think that there should be 5 groups seperating the different wave of immigrants from the mainland.




posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 10:29 PM
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Originally posted by chinawhite
think australia.............

Yeah? Hmm duno how I got that wrong, didnt you post in this thread you where from or had family there?



the country with the most inflence economically is infact mainland china. go figure


Yes , thats why I said in the EU. To qoute you [qoute] go figure[/qoute]



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 10:33 PM
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Originally posted by ludahai
And it is no more than that, an opinion. In the course of my thesis research, I interviewed the Japanese ambassador in Washington. I tried to pin him down on what Japan's official position was concerning Taiwan. He said that it wasn't Japan's say or concern, and kept referring me to the SFPT, NOT the treaty with the ROC or the memorandum of underdstanding with the PRC in 1972, but the SFPT. THAT would seem to be the my thesis research.)


So you had quite a adventure.




Taiwan has never been ruled by the same government as China except for when the MANCHUS conquered them both! That is the history you seem to want to ignore.


How am i ignoring this information?




An Act of Congress in the mid-1980s declared that they don't recognize the legality of China's brutal occupation of Tibet.


Which act was that?



False. The U.S. handed those island to Japan in 1974 (I may be a year or two off on that - my memory fails at the moment.)


No the people of okinawa voted to join japan but at the time americans included the Diaoyu Islands as the okinawa prefect.


I didn't know america supported japan. please provide source or info



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 10:34 PM
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Originally posted by devilwasp

Yeah? Hmm duno how I got that wrong, didnt you post in this thread you where from or had family there?


I have family there. on both sides.



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 10:34 PM
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Originally posted by chinawhite


NOW, Taiwanese hate China because of China's behavior, which is clear for all to see. From missile tests prior to the 1996 elections to hundreds of missiles pointed at us,


but still 1996. when chen was making threats about taiwanese independence


Interesting because Chen Shuibien was barely a blip on the Taiwanese political scene in 1996.




to Chinese public health officials saying that no one cares about Taiwan at WHO meetings...... There are PLENTY of reasons for Taiwanese to hate China. It is nothing to do with the KMT today, and everything to do with China's own actions.


Its called backmailing


Right, China's blackmailing Taiwan. Thanks for admitting it.




What information do you have that says that the majority of Taiwanese DON'T think Taiwan is an independent country?


opinion polls.

theres independence, status quo, and uni-fication


You should look VERY carefully at how such polls are worded and who is doing them. Polls also show that a majority of Taiwanese do NOT want one-country, two-systems for Taiwan, and they agree with former-President Lee's theory of a special state-to-state relationship across the strait.






How can Taiwan re-join the PRC when it has never been a part of the PRC?
Don't be so sure about Taiwanese wanting to join the PRC.


better living standards in china bigger per-capita income.


You misunderstand. Taiwan as NEVER been a part of the PRC, so "re-join" is impossible. Also, Taiwan not only has higher per capita income and is more advanced, it is also democratic and FAR more free than China is.



YEAH NOW. but the ROC took taiwan when it was terra nullius


There is no legal basis for that in the post WWII world.


Go have a referendum. it'll be your last


That's the only way China can keep Taiwan "in the fold", through threats! It is going to backfire on China BIG TIME, trust me.





Except that this no longer holds water in international law. Wars of aggression (in post WWII international law) are not means to legally acquire territory.


As you said the allies told the KMT to go to taiwan


To accept Japan's surrender, NOT to take sovereignty!



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 10:40 PM
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Originally posted by chinawhite

As you said EDUCATED. what percentage were educated?


A small percentage, but a higher one than in China. Do you think those with a lesser education could speak Mandarin? Absolutely NOT! Nearly NO ONE in Taiwan spoke Mandarin when 1945 dawned.



NO ITS NOT..........

I speak hakka/hokkien and i can understand anything you ask me.

I dont care what language it came


My wife speaks Taiwanese and Mandarin. She can understand someone speaking Minnan from Hsiamen, BUT there are significant differences (like the differences between American English and British English.) However, she CAN NOT understand Hakka. You can perhaps bamboozle others on this issue, but not me.



Thats the reason why i think taiwanese are the same. i dont know why you claim there is a difference


Taiwanese and Minnan are dialects, but there are measurable differences due to the separation of Fujian and Taiwan over most of the past century. Taiwanese is NOT a dialect of Mandarin or Hakka, as all are mutually UNintelligible.



Its actually 2/8 when they first came into taiwan.

I think that there should be 5 groups seperating the different wave of immigrants from the mainland.


The Taiwanese decendents of the Minnan people who came before the 19th century generally have a common identification, hence no division is made. The Shinjhumin clearly DO have a separate identification, though among some of the youth, it is beginning to disappear as they are also developing a Taiwanese identity.



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 10:46 PM
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Originally posted by ludahai
Interesting because Chen Shuibien was barely a blip on the Taiwanese political scene in 1996.


and somehow managed to become president?



Right, China's blackmailing Taiwan. Thanks for admitting it.


thats the whole point of this



You misunderstand. Taiwan as NEVER been a part of the PRC, so "re-join" is impossible.


It has never been apart of the PRC but was a part of china.



Also, Taiwan not only has higher per capita income and is more advanced, it is also democratic and FAR more free than China is.


try 20-30 years.

more advanced?

China has more international support, more polictal power, more money, more advanced



That's the only way China can keep Taiwan "in the fold", through threats! It is going to backfire on China BIG TIME, trust me.


Wulp. we will threaten you until you give in...

your a weak island isolated from the international community



To accept Japan's surrender, NOT to take sovereignty!


Im not to sure how the ROC did this but. they probaly thought that the cario conference was binding.

They were promised that land and went there to take it



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 10:48 PM
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Originally posted by chinawhite

So you had quite a adventure.


In reality, it was. I interviewed officials from several countries (including officials at the Chinese embassy in Washington), did research at the Library of Congress and at libraries in Taipei (I was denied access to official libraries in Beijing) and discussed the legal merits with law professors at more than half-dozen universities.


How am i ignoring this information?


Isn't part of your argument that Taiwan is historically part of China? It is clear that it is NOT!





An Act of Congress in the mid-1980s declared that they don't recognize the legality of China's brutal occupation of Tibet.


Which act was that?


In 1987, Congress passed an act calling on closer relations with Tibet, and in 1994 called on the State Department to issue reports on relations between the U.S. and the TRUE REPRESENTATIVES of the Tibetan people, namely the Dalai Lama and his government in exile.




False. The U.S. handed those island to Japan in 1974 (I may be a year or two off on that - my memory fails at the moment.)


No the people of okinawa voted to join japan but at the time americans included the Diaoyu Islands as the okinawa prefect.


Right, the Americans handed over Senkaku over to Japan as is their right under the SFPT.


I didn't know america supported japan. please provide source or info


The U.S. is the country that transferred the territory from its control to Japan. It didn't give it to China or Taiwan, though Taiwan has a far stronger claim to the islands than China has.



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 10:58 PM
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Originally posted by chinawhite

Originally posted by ludahai
Interesting because Chen Shuibien was barely a blip on the Taiwanese political scene in 1996.


and somehow managed to become president?


FOUR YEARS LATER!




You misunderstand. Taiwan as NEVER been a part of the PRC, so "re-join" is impossible.


It has never been apart of the PRC but was a part of china.


Part of China, or occupied by the same invaders who conquered China?




Also, Taiwan not only has higher per capita income and is more advanced, it is also democratic and FAR more free than China is.


try 20-30 years.

more advanced?

China has more international support, more polictal power, more money, more advanced


Give me a break. Taiwan is one of the world leaders in high tech industries. Taiwan's countryside is comfortable with few living in poverty. China still has hundreds of millions living either in abject poverty or just above it. I have been to Chinese hinterlands. To suggest that they enjoy a standard of living even remotely close to that enjoyed by Taiwanese living in rural areas is a joke, and a bad one at that.

China has more money, but PER CAPITA Taiwan has FAR MORE money than China has.




That's the only way China can keep Taiwan "in the fold", through threats! It is going to backfire on China BIG TIME, trust me.


Wulp. we will threaten you until you give in...

your a weak island isolated from the international community


At least you admit that you can't win the argument legally, so you have to use military force to illegally take what is not yours.

We will see how isolated Taiwan is when Japan and the United States send their militaries in to face an unprovoked Chinese attack on Taiwan.


Im not to sure how the ROC did this but. they probaly thought that the cario conference was binding.


Douglas McCarthur gave the order for the ROC to accept Japan's surrender ON BEHALF OF THE ALLIES in 1945. The ROC didn't have any naval assets at the time, to the Americans even had to give them a ride!


They were promised that land and went there to take it


Too bad it doesn't hold up under international law.



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 10:59 PM
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Originally posted by ludahai
A small percentage, but a higher one than in China. Do you think those with a lesser education could speak Mandarin? Absolutely NOT! Nearly NO ONE in Taiwan spoke Mandarin when 1945 dawned.


I dont get what your trying to say?




My wife speaks Taiwanese and Mandarin. She can understand someone speaking Minnan from Hsiamen, BUT there are significant differences (like the differences between American English and British English.) /quote]

can you make a small list or someting so i know why she thinks its different





However, she CAN NOT understand Hakka. You can perhaps bamboozle others on this issue, but not me.


What proof do you want?.




Taiwanese is NOT a dialect of Mandarin or Hakka, as all are mutually UNintelligible.


I know a lot of hakka and i have a good understanding of hokkien. If your telling me she cant understand hokkien shes lieing.






The Taiwanese decendents of the Minnan people who came before the 19th century generally have a common identification, hence no division is made. The Shinjhumin clearly DO have a separate identification, though among some of the youth, it is beginning to disappear as they are also developing a Taiwanese identity.


Aboriginal taiwanese

Dutch period

Koxinga period-1850s

1850s-1895

1930s-present



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 11:08 PM
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Originally posted by chinawhite

I dont get what your trying to say?


You tried to claim that Taiwanese and Chinese spoke the same language. I was simply pointing out that almost on one in Taiwan spoke Mandarin in 1945. You tried to refute that.






However, she CAN NOT understand Hakka. You can perhaps bamboozle others on this issue, but not me.


What proof do you want?.


Look, Taiwanese is my wife's native language. I take her at her word that she can't understand Hakka. Sometimes, when I flip past the Hakka channel on TV, she asks me what I am watching because she can't understand any of it.



Taiwanese is NOT a dialect of Mandarin or Hakka, as all are mutually UNintelligible.


I know a lot of hakka and i have a good understanding of hokkien. If your telling me she cant understand hokkien shes lieing.


I have tolerated you to this point, but calling my wife a liar is BEYOND the PALE. I know your side can't accept the truth, but unless you issue an apology, this discussion will end and you will be reported to the moderators.

It isn't only her, I have plenty of Taiwanese friends who speak Taiwanese but who can't understand Hakka. Are you calling all of them liars too?





Aboriginal taiwanese

Dutch period

Koxinga period-1850s

1850s-1895

1930s-present



Those that came during the middle three periods generally have a common identity among themselves. You only want to split them because it makes the group you support look more significant and substantial.



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 11:10 PM
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Originally posted by ludahai
FOUR YEARS LATER!


WTF why did i write that



Part of China, or occupied by the same invaders who conquered China?


Qing dynasty



Give me a break. Taiwan is one of the world leaders in high tech industries.


and how much of this is then produced in china?



Taiwan's countryside is comfortable with few living in poverty. China still has hundreds of millions living either in abject poverty or just above it. I have been to Chinese hinterlands.
To suggest that they enjoy a standard of living even remotely close to that enjoyed by Taiwanese living in rural areas is a joke, and a bad one at that.


notice my 20-30years



China has more money, but PER CAPITA Taiwan has FAR MORE money than China has.


true



We will see how isolated Taiwan is when Japan and the United States send their militaries in to face an unprovoked Chinese attack on Taiwan.


let them send their army navy airforces. let them fight a nuclear war



[edit on 16-9-2005 by chinawhite]



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 11:16 PM
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Originally posted by ludahai
In reality, it was. I interviewed officials from several countries (including officials at the Chinese embassy in Washington), did research at the Library of Congress and at libraries in Taipei (I was denied access to official libraries in Beijing) and discussed the legal merits with law professors at more than half-dozen universities.


wow i am so amazed




Isn't part of your argument that Taiwan is historically part of China? It is clear that it is NOT!


yes since the 1700s



In 1987, Congress passed an act calling on closer relations with Tibet, and in 1994 called on the State Department to issue reports on relations between the U.S. and the TRUE REPRESENTATIVES of the Tibetan people, namely the Dalai Lama and his government in exile.


A name woulde be nice



Right, the Americans handed over Senkaku over to Japan as is their right under the SFPT.


But now the problem is that they included the Diaoyu Islands as okinawa.



[edit on 16-9-2005 by chinawhite]



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 11:27 PM
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Originally posted by ludahai
You tried to claim that Taiwanese and Chinese spoke the same language. I was simply pointing out that almost on one in Taiwan spoke Mandarin in 1945. You tried to refute that.


Who claimed that? i for sure didn't



I have tolerated you to this point, but calling my wife a liar is BEYOND the PALE. I know your side can't accept the truth, but unless you issue an apology, this discussion will end and you will be reported to the moderators.


YOU CALLED ME A LIAR


If she cant understand hakka, can she understand hokkien. i speak both.

you also claimed that a tried to "bamboozle" people. i dont know what it means but that is a personal attack



Those that came during the middle three periods generally have a common identity among themselves. You only want to split them because it makes the group you support look more significant and substantial.



Dutch period- people during this peroid have intermarried with the local population. and have a lot more darker skin.

Koxinga period-1850s-these people came from all over china. and not all could speak the same language

1850s-1895-these are the people that claimed to speak taiwanese and bring a lot of what modern "taiwanese" culture is



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 11:51 PM
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im making a personal vendetta againest you.


you trash the memory of my ancestors. claim that im a liar. you first claimed i was a communist.

then you want a apology


who do you think you are. are you a westerner???????

700 years living in fujian province. having created the culture. you think you know more


[edit on 16-9-2005 by chinawhite]



posted on Sep, 17 2005 @ 02:48 AM
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Originally posted by chinawhite


Give me a break. Taiwan is one of the world leaders in high tech industries.


and how much of this is then produced in china?


China produces shoes and clothes in factories owned by Taiwanese businessmen. China has dirt cheap labor (artifically low due partially to an artifically low yuan) who can't bargain collective (so much for the worker's paradise) as well as some of the most lax environmental regulations in East Asia.

As for high tech, Hsinchu is the high tech center and Taichung will be the home of a new nanotechnology park soon (it is currently under construction.)




Taiwan's countryside is comfortable with few living in poverty. China still has hundreds of millions living either in abject poverty or just above it. I have been to Chinese hinterlands.
To suggest that they enjoy a standard of living even remotely close to that enjoyed by Taiwanese living in rural areas is a joke, and a bad one at that.


notice my 20-30years


No way China's hinterlands will catch up to Taiwan's so quickly. More like a hundred years.




We will see how isolated Taiwan is when Japan and the United States send their militaries in to face an unprovoked Chinese attack on Taiwan.


let them send their army navy airforces. let them fight a nuclear war


And the world sees just how irrational China and its supporters are regarding territory that doesn't legally belong to them.



posted on Sep, 17 2005 @ 02:53 AM
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Originally posted by chinawhite

Originally posted by ludahai
You tried to claim that Taiwanese and Chinese spoke the same language. I was simply pointing out that almost on one in Taiwan spoke Mandarin in 1945. You tried to refute that.


Who claimed that? i for sure didn't


read earlier in this thread. I believe it was you who made the claim that Taiwanese spoke the same language as Chinese.




I have tolerated you to this point, but calling my wife a liar is BEYOND the PALE. I know your side can't accept the truth, but unless you issue an apology, this discussion will end and you will be reported to the moderators.


YOU CALLED ME A LIAR


Well, perhaps you are a liar, perhaps not. However, the two of us calling someone a liar is one thing, but calling someone who is not involved in this discussion and one of my family members a liar is something else entirely. Of course, ChiComs don't care to which lows they scoop, do they?


If she cant understand hakka, can she understand hokkien. i speak both.


She can understand Minnan, known as Hoklo in English. The term Hokkien refers to another language related to Minnan, but NOT Minnan.


you also claimed that a tried to "bamboozle" people. i dont know what it means but that is a personal attack


If you don't know what it means, then look it up?


Dutch period- people during this peroid have intermarried with the local population. and have a lot more darker skin.


This is also true of later arrivals. Taiwanese generally have darker colored skin than their ancestors in Fujian.


Koxinga period-1850s-these people came from all over china. and not all could speak the same language


Not true. They came from a small number of villages in Fujian and the Hakka from northern Guangdong. In fact, a large percentage of native Taiwanese can trace their ancestry to two villages in Fujian.


1850s-1895-these are the people that claimed to speak taiwanese and bring a lot of what modern "taiwanese" culture is


All three groups speak Taiwanese (except the Hakka).



posted on Sep, 17 2005 @ 02:55 AM
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Alrighty then: Lets maintain some decourum and kindly stick to the topic at hand. Personal insults and the like will not be tolerated, nor do they add anything to the discussion at hand.



posted on Sep, 17 2005 @ 03:03 AM
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Originally posted by chinawhite
im making a personal vendetta againest you.


you trash the memory of my ancestors. claim that im a liar. you first claimed i was a communist.


Well, you tote the Party line and even in your title you call yourself "chinkcom." It seems to fit.


then you want a apology


I know, I know. ChiComs don't have any morality, so they won't do the right thing. No surprise. I have dealt with all of this before from so-called Chinese nationalists.


who do you think you are. are you a westerner???????


I never claimed that I wasn't a Westerner.


700 years living in fujian province. having created the culture. you think you know more


Wow! You have been living in Fujian for 700 years?!?!? Keep it up, you will catch up to Methuselah



posted on Sep, 17 2005 @ 03:16 AM
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Originally posted by ludahai
read earlier in this thread. I believe it was you who made the claim that Taiwanese spoke the same language as Chinese.


I cant find it. you mentioned that educated people spoke it



Well, perhaps you are a liar, perhaps not.


perhaps your wife is a liar or not.



However, the two of us calling someone a liar is one thing, but calling someone who is not involved in this discussion and one of my family members a liar is something else entirely.


You called me a liar. that is a personal attack. if she cant understand hokkien i suggest she find a different country



Of course, ChiComs don't care to which lows they scoop, do they?


Is that a personal attack?



She can understand Minnan, known as Hoklo in English. The term Hokkien refers to another language related to Minnan, but NOT Minnan.


here is what i found out about minnan

Minnan is a language but taiwanese and hokkien are sub-languages. or minnan is known in these areas as these names


The Taiwanese language is also a form of Min Nan. It is often known as Hokkien (i.e., "Fujian[ese]") or Teochew (a variant), especially in Southeast Asia.

en.wikipedia.org...




There are 49 million Minnan people living in Asia. Minnan (also known in Taiwan as Taiwanese) is the heart language of about two-thirds (14.5 million) of Taiwan`s population. Linguistic experts differentiate at least eight dialects of Minnan as well as a few distinct subdialects, including Hokkien, Fukienese, Fujianese and others.







If you don't know what it means, then look it up?


Well how low to you go. Another personal attack



This is also true of later arrivals. Taiwanese generally have darker colored skin than their ancestors in Fujian.


Darker.? if they get any darker than fujianese people they will look like aborininals



Not true. They came from a small number of villages in Fujian and the Hakka from northern Guangdong. In fact, a large percentage of native Taiwanese can trace their ancestry to two villages in Fujian.


A lot of people during the Konxinga came from all over china. running from north to south



All three groups speak Taiwanese (except the Hakka).


Taiwan wasn't even a country pre-1949



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