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Can China Invade Taiwan?

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posted on Sep, 12 2005 @ 12:42 AM
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I dont think US will get involved in a China vs Tawain war. USA will support the Tawainese with weapons and stuff but direct help, no. Also if Tawain trys to get independence, USA will likely help very little. USA is against Tawain trying to be independent. USA cant afford China stopping trade with them and China can afford that too. But then China is communists so they win because if something happens they can easliy put a lid on it.

Out,
Russian




posted on Sep, 12 2005 @ 03:06 AM
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Well if you believe that, I have some land in Siberia, I'd like to sell you.


The US is doing everything in it's power to coordinate mutual defense of US and Taiwan security.



posted on Sep, 12 2005 @ 07:27 AM
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no they arent.

they do still stand by the one china policy but only if they mutually agree for independence.

only if china uses force thats whats its againet

they want to keep the status quo.



posted on Sep, 12 2005 @ 08:42 AM
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or is the US pushing china to attack Taiwan?

will the chinese claim North Korea? IF NK clasps would china allow for a democratic Korea on her borders or would China invade?



posted on Sep, 12 2005 @ 09:30 AM
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Originally posted by bodebliss
Well if you believe that, I have some land in Siberia, I'd like to sell you.


The US is doing everything in it's power to coordinate mutual defense of US and Taiwan security.


If it comes to pick between Tawain and China, USA will take China. Tawain is a friend, China is the money. You should do some research on how much China and USA trade. The numbers will hurt your head. Both cant live without each other because of this trading and money.

Out,
Russian



posted on Sep, 12 2005 @ 10:58 AM
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QUOTE : "If it comes to pick between Tawain and China, USA will take China. Tawain is a friend, China is the money. "


SORRY , just gotta disagree with that . the US cannot afford to just let tiawan " swivel " no one would trust them as an " ally " again


QUOTE : "You should do some research on how much China and USA trade. The numbers will hurt your head. Both cant live without each other because of this trading and money. "

the US could weather a catastropic breakdown in relations with china , it has no strategic reliance on chinese goods .



china would fare VERY poorly if its US markets vanished suddenly



posted on Sep, 12 2005 @ 11:34 AM
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Originally posted by ignorant_ape
QUOTE : "If it comes to pick between Tawain and China, USA will take China. Tawain is a friend, China is the money. "


SORRY , just gotta disagree with that . the US cannot afford to just let tiawan " swivel " no one would trust them as an " ally " again



Ally in this day and age means a whole bunch of nothing. Look what YOUR allies are doing about Iraq. Also Look what YOUR allies are doing to each other(Singapore and Tawain).



china would fare VERY poorly if its US markets vanished suddenly


Dont be blind. Your market would collapse too. USA is a world economy now. They cant produce most of their own stuff so they depend on cheap labor like China, India and Mexico.

So while China would fare very poorly, US economy would collapse. It makes a big difference if something is built for $.50 an hour or at $20.00 an hour. The labor in USA is so expensive it would kill everyone that doesnt own millions of dollars.

Out,
Russian



posted on Sep, 12 2005 @ 11:38 AM
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Originally posted by Char2c35t
or is the US pushing china to attack Taiwan?

USA wishes that it will never come to Tawain and China war.

will the chinese claim North Korea? IF NK clasps would china allow for a democratic Korea on her borders or would China invade?



When North Korean government collapses, China will use every means nessaccery to put a Chinese friendly government in. It would be a government close to Chinese. With all the influence of China in North Korea, China will get what they want. There is no other government in a good enough position to have much influnece on North Korea.

Out,
Russian

[edit on 12-9-2005 by Russian]



posted on Sep, 13 2005 @ 01:08 AM
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Originally posted by Char2c35t
or is the US pushing china to attack Taiwan?

will the chinese claim North Korea? IF NK clasps would china allow for a democratic Korea on her borders or would China invade?



if its south korea then yes.

south korea and china have very very good relations



posted on Sep, 13 2005 @ 05:54 AM
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Originally posted by Russian
I dont think US will get involved in a China vs Tawain war. USA will support the Tawainese with weapons and stuff but direct help, no. Also if Tawain trys to get independence, USA will likely help very little. USA is against Tawain trying to be independent. USA cant afford China stopping trade with them and China can afford that too. But then China is communists so they win because if something happens they can easliy put a lid on it.

Out,
Russian


I believe it depends on large part on who the President of the US is at the time.

There is reason to state that it is in the interest of both the USA and Japan to get involved in the defense of Taiwan.

The USA would lose tons of credibility in this region (and here, there is still a lot of credibility) if the U.S. does not help in Taiwan's defense.

Japan needs an independent Taiwan out of China's control because Taiwanw ould give China a strong position to grab at the Senkaku islands and other claims that China have in the East China Sea.

It is in the national interests of BOTH the USA and Japan to keep Taiwan free and independent of China.



posted on Sep, 13 2005 @ 06:07 AM
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Originally posted by chinawhite

if china was using past exploits than we would be claiming the middle east and all the way to poland


I am sure that you realize that by the time the SOuthern Song were conquered, the Mongols had already divided their empire into four parts, all ruled locally.



not living together but sharing the same cultures. most mongols that came to china actually took up chinese dress and names.


But those Mongols who came to China were of the ruling class. THe vast majority of Mongols didn't go to China, and maintained their traditional nomadic lifestyle, which some try to maintain to this day.


the Ming dynasty controlled inner mongolia


Only a fringe of it (according to the present map of China) and only for a short period of time. The Ming were largely threatened by powerful northern tribes. This is often considered one of the reasons the Ming stopped its naval voyages into the southern seas.


china since the Han dynasty has controlled "southern/inner" mongolia


Not all of it, only parts. The Mongols didn't even EXIST as a cohesive ethnic group prior to the 11th century. Saying that they fell within the borders of China prior to that is an impossibility.


yes difference between Han and mongolian. not chinese


Mongolians are not ethnic Chinese. They have their own country. Are you now going to say that Koreans are also ethnic Chinese?


why dont you ask them.


I have been to both Inner and Outer Mongolia. While in Inner Mongolia, I visited Hohhot (largely Han Chinese) as well as the steppelands, which are largely Mongolian. There is a significant difference in appearance, dress, and customs. The few that I did speak with on this matter (most are afraid to bring it up to the Chinese secret police that are known to operate in sensitive borderlands areas) mentioned that they HATE the Chinese.


old expliots. we never gave them up


You gave up most of Mongolia, most of Tibet, and all of Taiwan!


compared to who? southern chinese


No, compared to Northern Han


no, the communist forced the people to get along. there were significant numbers of chinese in xingjiang and tibet but they stayed in their own areas and didn't interact with the locals


Only in Urumqi and Xining (Xining is in Qinghai, but it is just outside traditional Tibetan areas). Inmigration of Chinese into both Xinjiang (New Borderland) and Qinghai/Tibet have increased markedly in the past two decades.


the popultion of xingjiang was small four decades ago


And the inmigration of Han have been one of the two main reasons for its swelling.



i mean these people are from the Han chiense but broken off to form their own group.


However, the Han are not a single, cohesive ethnic group. One could easily identify at least a dozen distinct ethnic groups from among the Han.


i dont know every language spoken in those areas but i know form my experience that each area speaks mandarin and a local language.


But that is a modern phenomenon, and even now in some areas, Mandarin language skills are lax. I have been to areas of Yunnan (expecially in the Naxi northeast) where few people, even among the youth, can speak Mandarin.


because from the area i come from in the south we were originally from the north .


One thing I find interesting, as a matter of fact, is the historical migration of ethnic groups within China and the consequent spread of their languages and customs (especially cuisine - one of my favorite topics.)

Please don't think that I am anti-China. I love Chinese people, language, history, culture and especially food. It is just the ChiCom government that I can't tolerate.



posted on Sep, 13 2005 @ 06:57 AM
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Originally posted by ludahai
I am sure that you realize that by the time the SOuthern Song were conquered, the Mongols had already divided their empire into four parts, all ruled locally.


i mean because they are mongols.



But those Mongols who came to China were of the ruling class. THe vast majority of Mongols didn't go to China, and maintained their traditional nomadic lifestyle, which some try to maintain to this day.


when you say vast majority what are you thinking. percentage wise



Only a fringe of it (according to the present map of China) and only for a short period of time. The Ming were largely threatened by powerful northern tribes. This is often considered one of the reasons the Ming stopped its naval voyages into the southern seas.


70% of inner mongolia was in the Ming empire.

they stopped the voyages because there was no funding



Not all of it, only parts. The Mongols didn't even EXIST as a cohesive ethnic group prior to the 11th century. Saying that they fell within the borders of China prior to that is an impossibility.


there wasn't even inner outer mongolia 100years ago. i am saying that the Han dynasty controlled what is now present day mongolia



Mongolians are not ethnic Chinese. They have their own country. Are you now going to say that Koreans are also ethnic Chinese?


there is no such thing as ethnic chinese.




The few that I did speak with on this matter (most are afraid to bring it up to the Chinese secret police that are known to operate in sensitive borderlands areas) mentioned that they HATE the Chinese.


As you said the few.

and how did you get to mongolia



You gave up most of Mongolia, most of Tibet, and all of Taiwan!


no we didn't



No, compared to Northern Han


i must admit i have only met a few manchus. but they seem very chinese to me



Only in Urumqi and Xining (Xining is in Qinghai, but it is just outside traditional Tibetan areas). Inmigration of Chinese into both Xinjiang (New Borderland) and Qinghai/Tibet have increased markedly in the past two decades.


I know a lot of people that lived in xingjiang. and these people didn't come in the last two decades but settled their generations ago.

there is a lot of racial tension between the HAN chinese and Uygurs.




And the inmigration of Han have been one of the two main reasons for its swelling.


xingjiang can sustain a lot more people than the current population




However, the Han are not a single, cohesive ethnic group. One could easily identify at least a dozen distinct ethnic groups from among the Han.


but they are still classed as HAN chinese.



But that is a modern phenomenon, and even now in some areas, Mandarin language skills are lax. I have been to areas of Yunnan (expecially in the Naxi northeast) where few people, even among the youth, can speak Mandarin.


that is a county. you talking about Naxi people or HAN chinese



Please don't think that I am anti-China. I love Chinese people, language, history, culture and especially food. It is just the ChiCom government that I can't tolerate.


you can attack chinas government all you want but dont get chinas history in this.

How much people on the mainland want taiwan back.? over 95%. its not the government making these policies but they make the policies for the people



[edit on 13-9-2005 by chinawhite]



posted on Sep, 13 2005 @ 11:48 AM
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Originally posted by ludahai

Originally posted by Russian
I dont think US will get involved in a China vs Tawain war. USA will support the Tawainese with weapons and stuff but direct help, no. Also if Tawain trys to get independence, USA will likely help very little. USA is against Tawain trying to be independent. USA cant afford China stopping trade with them and China cant afford that too. But then China is communists so they win because if something happens they can easliy put a lid on it.

Out,
Russian


I believe it depends on large part on who the President of the US is at the time.

There is reason to state that it is in the interest of both the USA and Japan to get involved in the defense of Taiwan.

The USA would lose tons of credibility in this region (and here, there is still a lot of credibility) if the U.S. does not help in Taiwan's defense.

Japan needs an independent Taiwan out of China's control because Taiwanw ould give China a strong position to grab at the Senkaku islands and other claims that China have in the East China Sea.

It is in the national interests of BOTH the USA and Japan to keep Taiwan free and independent of China.


It depends on the how the independence will be coming. If Tawain just says we are independent, USA will not defend much as USA already said that they will not support a forced Tawian independence.

Out,
Russian



posted on Sep, 13 2005 @ 05:45 PM
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Originally posted by Russian

It depends on the how the independence will be coming. If Tawain just says we are independent, USA will not defend much as USA already said that they will not support a forced Tawian independence.

Out,
Russian


If I were you, I wouldn't read too much into such statements.

China is the true political chicken here. If it was so sure of their claims that their Taiwan "compatriots" wanted to return to the mother land and that their legal claim to Taiwan was solid, they wouldn't object to either a referendum on Taiwan's status nor would they object to bring this issue to the International Court of Justice. China's government objects to both however, showing that theit true confidence is not as much as their bluff and bluster would lead one to believe.



posted on Sep, 13 2005 @ 06:49 PM
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here is another interesting article to read!




Chinese spy plane seen near Japan: report TOKYO: A Chinese military spy plane was spotted twice last month off southern Japan amid high tensions between the two nations, a news report said Tuesday.
Kyodo News, citing unnamed sources in a dispatch from Washington, said the plane flying in Japanese airspace could likely catch radio waves and electronic data from Japanese warships or military facilities.

China has never confirmed the existence of such a plane but the US Defense Department believes Beijing is focusing on "electronic warfare" as it expands its military spending, the report said.

It said the plane was spotted off twice in August over the East China Sea south of mainland Japan's southern island of Kyushu.


here is the link: www.defencetalk.com...

interesting that chinese spy planes are popping up over Japan if Japan and CHina have such a great friendship?!?!?!?!

Really makes you wonder what the CCP has on thier minds and would plans they are hacking getting a little interesting and its the rosy sino picture that some people like to paint on this thread about sino.



posted on Sep, 14 2005 @ 03:23 AM
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Ah, those spy planes over Japan are probably looking for a place to land a fleet of planes loaded with CCP cadre looking for asylum, when the situation in China blows up in their faces.



posted on Sep, 14 2005 @ 09:57 AM
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Originally posted by chinawhite


when you say vast majority what are you thinking. percentage wise


No one knows for sure, but I would be surprised if it were more than five percent.


70% of inner mongolia was in the Ming empire.


Only at its height. Like all dynasties, the boundaries of the Ming fluctuated.


they stopped the voyages because there was no funding


Because funding had to be diverted to protecting against the threats posed by the northern steppe tribes.


there wasn't even inner outer mongolia 100years ago. i am saying that the Han dynasty controlled what is now present day mongolia


Only the very fringes of it.


there is no such thing as ethnic chinese.


According to U.S. census forms, there is. There is also no such thing as a single ethnic Han, but Chinese continue to refer to them as a single, cohesive ethnic group.


As you said the few.

and how did you get to mongolia


I went to Hohhot by train. I went to Ulaan Bataar by plane. I did both while I was residing in China in the late 1990s.




You gave up most of Mongolia, most of Tibet, and all of Taiwan!


no we didn't


Taiwan was surrendered in 1895 when the Qing signed the Treaty of Shimonoseki. Mongolia became an "independent" state in 1922, and Tibet achieved self government shortly following the death of Yuan Shikai in the mid 1910s.




No, compared to Northern Han


i must admit i have only met a few manchus. but they seem very chinese to me


They are generally taller and fairer skinned compared to northern Han people.


I know a lot of people that lived in xingjiang. and these people didn't come in the last two decades but settled their generations ago.

there is a lot of racial tension between the HAN chinese and Uygurs.


There is a lot of racial tension largely because of the recent influx of Han. There have been small Han communities in the cities of Urumqi and Xining (larger in the later), but Han were almost non-existant in the hinterlands until recently.


xingjiang can sustain a lot more people than the current population


Not really. Xinjiang is mostly arid and semiarid.





However, the Han are not a single, cohesive ethnic group. One could easily identify at least a dozen distinct ethnic groups from among the Han.


but they are still classed as HAN chinese.


But Han is not a single ethnic group.




But that is a modern phenomenon, and even now in some areas, Mandarin language skills are lax. I have been to areas of Yunnan (expecially in the Naxi northeast) where few people, even among the youth, can speak Mandarin.


that is a county. you talking about Naxi people or HAN chinese


The Naxi live in an "autonomous" county as well as in border areas of neighboring counties. They are closely related to the Tibetans. I had a real hard time communicating with people when I was there because only a small number of young people could speak Mandarin.




Please don't think that I am anti-China. I love Chinese people, language, history, culture and especially food. It is just the ChiCom government that I can't tolerate.


you can attack chinas government all you want but dont get chinas history in this.

How much people on the mainland want taiwan back.? over 95%. its not the government making these policies but they make the policies for the people


So, China will use illegal means and not respect the will of the Taiwanese people to do it? The fact is that if the Chinese government didn't whip up the peopel concerning Taiwan, people in China wouldn't be so concerned about it. When I lived in China, the government shoved it down their throats so much, it is unsurprising the Chinese people say what they do. The fact is, Taiwan doesn't belong to China. It belongs to the Taiwanese people. If China opted for a more open policy of accepting Taiwan was a state, there could be far more positive relationships than there already are. Taiwanese generally are becoming more and more hostile toward China as a result of the actions of its government, not because there is a natural hatred of China here. The Chinese government is inflaming the situation, not President Chen.



[edit on 13-9-2005 by chinawhite]



posted on Sep, 14 2005 @ 05:20 PM
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Originally posted by ludahai
No one knows for sure, but I would be surprised if it were more than five percent.


who controlled chinas government who was in the army.

its a lot more than the 5%your thinking



Only at its height. Like all dynasties, the boundaries of the Ming fluctuated.


for much of its existence it contolled inner mongolia



Because funding had to be diverted to protecting against the threats posed by the northern steppe tribes.


they stopped the trips because the trips cost so much without any return.




Only the very fringes of it.




just look at this map



According to U.S. census forms, there is. There is also no such thing as a single ethnic Han, but Chinese continue to refer to them as a single, cohesive ethnic group.


they are a single ethnic group.



I went to Hohhot by train. I went to Ulaan Bataar by plane. I did both while I was residing in China in the late 1990s.


how did soemone like yourself that hates communist manage to live in china?



Taiwan was surrendered in 1895 when the Qing signed the Treaty of Shimonoseki.


and china was promised it back during the cario conference.



Mongolia became an "independent" state in 1922,


sorry i ment to write inner mongolia



and Tibet achieved self government shortly following the death of Yuan Shikai in the mid 1910s.


they alway administrate themeselves. in domestic affairs but it was a chinese protectorate



They are generally taller and fairer skinned compared to northern Han people.


taller and fairer skin dont mean nothing.




There is a lot of racial tension largely because of the recent influx of Han. There have been small Han communities in the cities of Urumqi and Xining (larger in the later), but Han were almost non-existant in the hinterlands until recently.


no they weren't.

do you know what Hazaras are.?



Not really. Xinjiang is mostly arid and semiarid.


there is enough water there for 30million people




But Han is not a single ethnic group.


yes they are.



The Naxi live in an "autonomous" county as well as in border areas of neighboring counties. They are closely related to the Tibetans. I had a real hard time communicating with people when I was there because only a small number of young people could speak Mandarin.


we cant force people to get a education. its not like we dont provide it for them



So, China will use illegal means and not respect the will of the Taiwanese people to do it?


what is the taiwanese people?. they are not a ethnic group they are not a forigen people.





The fact is that if the Chinese government didn't whip up the peopel concerning Taiwan, people in China wouldn't be so concerned about it. When I lived in China, the government shoved it down their throats so much, it is unsurprising the Chinese people say what they do.


Dont make things up. how does the chinese government shove things down peoples throat.

In the news.? people choose to watch the news they are not forced



The fact is, Taiwan doesn't belong to China. It belongs to the Taiwanese people. If China opted for a more open policy of accepting Taiwan was a state, there could be far more positive relationships than there already are. Taiwanese generally are becoming more and more hostile toward China as a result of the actions of its government, not because there is a natural hatred of China here. The Chinese government is inflaming the situation, not President Chen.


yeah.......china wants to keep the status quo its Chen that wants to change it.

Chen doesn't have any support for his actions in the international community



posted on Sep, 14 2005 @ 05:58 PM
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"and china was promised it back during the cario conference. "

You know communiques, declarations, and proclamations are no better than press releases under International Law.



posted on Sep, 14 2005 @ 06:01 PM
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There's allot of confusion on this because of China's propaganda.

China sees it this way they were fighting the ROC. In their mind, the ROC now controls Taiwan. They defeated the ROC in the civil war so all the spoils goes to China. The problem is the ROC was to only watch over Taiwan. They never obtained sovereignty. When the CCP defeated the KMT the ROC ceased to exist. The KMT today thinks it can now deed Taiwan back to the CCP for a share of power. Under international law this won't work. The treaty Shimonoseki deeded Taiwan to Japan, clearly. The US, the main signator of the San Francisco Treaty, is also the default guarantor of Taiwan's future, though this treaty did not grant sovereignty to the US. Sovereignty now lies w/ the people of Taiwan, But not the ROC. Tricky , huh? (PS: all communiques, proclamations and declarations signed by the US w/ anyone are no better than press releases under international law)



: A lie told a thousand times

By Kengchi Goah

Sunday, Sep 11, 2005,Page 8
Could a lie told a thousand times become a truth?

Yes, it could. That is what China believes in, and attempts to concoct regarding Taiwan's sovereignty. China has been entertaining vengeance against Japan and the West, for both have abused China in the past. Unable to take revenge on either country, China instead turned its anger on Taiwan, a small chip that China once abandoned and now claims as part of its territory. However, the claim stands on thin ice and must be refuted with facts.

Geometry says that a platform requires a minimum of three pillars to stand firmly on the globe. How many pillars support China's claim of title to Taiwan? Zero.

In 1895, by signing the Treaty of Shimonoseki with Japan as a result of defeat in a Sino-Japanese war, China ceded Taiwan to Japan in perpetuity, in addition to paying huge amounts of monetary compensation.

In 1943, the Cairo Declaration, a joint statement slightly better than a press release with no legal power, was issued expressing the common intent of restoring Taiwan to China after the war as a condition enticing China to pin down Japanese forces on the Asian continent.

In 1945, World War II ended with Japan's defeat and surrender to the Allied powers. The Chinese Nationalist Party (KMT) government was assigned by the Allied powers as their agent to administer Taiwan.

In 1949, defeated by the Chinese Communists, the KMT took refuge in Taiwan. The KMT was supposed to be an agent of the Allied powers, but they began a reign of terror. Meanwhile, the communists declared the establishment of the People's Republic of China (PRC) government in Beijing.

In 1950, the Korean War broke out. US president Harry Truman dispatched the Seventh Fleet to the Taiwan Strait.

In 1951, by signing the San Francisco Peace Treaty (SFPT), Japan renounced its title to Taiwan. That treaty, however, did not nullify the Treaty of Shimonoseki. In essence, Taiwan's legal status did not revert to what it was prior to the signing of the Treaty of Shimonoseki.

Furthermore, neither the Republic of China (ROC) government nor the PRC government represented the state of China in drafting or concluding the treaty. The treaty, which entered into effect in 1952, completely overrode the Cairo Declaration and excluded China from issues pertaining to Taiwan.

In 1952, after the SFPT took effect, the ROC government taking refuge in Taiwan signed a Treaty of Peace with Japan reaffirming the terms of SFPT. However, the ROC government was at that time not representing Taiwan in any legal capacity.



www.taipeitimes.com...

www.taiwanbasic.com...

www.taiwanbasic.com...








[edit on 9/14/2005 by bodebliss]



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