Can China Invade Taiwan?

Originally posted by Odium
...very interesting.

The Turbomeca Arriel-1C1 engine of the WuZhi-9 gives a max speed of 315km/h. Meaning Taiwan in 20minutes. If they begin to field a few hundreds of these, or even in the higher tens it could cause massive amounts of problems for Taiwan and enable them to gain a foot-hold on the beach prior to the landing craft arriving.

Not really.

You don't even need 23mm to kill helicopters. Just ask the Vietnamese, 12.7mm does just fine.

Ask the Russians what happened to Hind D in Afghanistan.

Hell, except for Iraq, when has AH64 Apache seen combat? Remember what happened to them in the Balkans?

The most successful helicopter gunship of all time is still the Huey Cobra. Say, what do the USMC fly?

Helicopter gunships are good only for killing armour in open territory, with fast jets flying top cover.

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV


Ask the Russians what happened to Hind D in Afghanistan.

They were shot down by grenade tipped arrows!!

Originally posted by rogue1
LMAO, trust you ? Once again I have proved you wrong

As I said the communists never captured Chang. Your own source proves it LOL.
[edit on 22-8-2005 by rogue1]

he was captued with the help of the communist.

KMT generals Zhang Xueliang and Yang Hucheng (with the support of the Communist leader Zhou Enlai), kidnapped Chiang Kai-shek and forced him to join a united front with the Communists against the Japanese.

and trust me anytime you argue with me you lose



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Anything else?

^^^ LMAO, yeah you just keep on telling yourself that if it makes you feel better

The communists didn't help in any way. They just supported it verbally DUH. As your source states KMT generals masterminded the kidnapping not the communists. The reason the KMT generals kidnapped him was because he hated the communists more than the Japanese, whereas the 2 KMT generals wanted to fight the Japanese.


PS. In relation to the Hind gunship in Afghanistan. The nuj were getting their arses kicked by these helicopters until the introduction of the stinger. Without the stinger they couldn't be brought down, of course there were your exceptional flukes, but rare indeed. Small arms did nothing.

Actually watched Blackhawk Down lately? Those were RPG 7s. No guidance, no targeting.

You hit the tail rotor and the helo pilot can kiss his arse goodbye.

Yes, kills of Hinds prior to Stinger were pretty rare, but that was a group of guerillas fighting at night with no serious training in either tactics or weapons in mountains that gave the fairly well-trained pilots lots of cover. Ever seen footage of those battles, the AA gunners were firing like it was the Battle of Britain, if I shoot up I'm guaranteed to hit something.

Check out how many Hueys the Yanks lost in VN. Those were to gunners who had been trained to use their weapons properly and many of them were 12.7 mm.

Which do you think the Taiwanese Army is more likely to resemble?

And as you brought in Stinger, do you seriously think the Taiwanese won't have shoulder-launched AA such as Blowpipe or Stinger?

Originally posted by twchang
Don't you notice the differences in tune etc? Because I notice them. And the slans are different. Manderin is also spoken a bit differently.

tones.? you use different tones for different words.

i never heard them talking slan. their wording is much more proper than mine

I was under the impression that Chinese have some deep anger toward Japanese, which is quite different from most Taiwanese. Because of the soccer riot, the recent large scale demonstrations etc. Taiwanese feeling toward Japan is quite different. There are minor disputes like fishing rights etc, but overall the relationship is quite friendly. Currently most foreign tourists in Taiwan are still Japanese I think.

How can you say most taiwanese. have you met half of them. surveys?

or are you just saying that because they dont have large riots.

And a quote from Taipei Times, "Japan is one of the top destinations for business travelers and vacationers from Taiwan, and nearly 1 million Taiwanese visit the country each year, according to statistics supplied by the Central News Agency (CNA)."

mainland china is the top destination. but do you think the taiwanese have a good opinion about them

Yes, TV shows.

and a TV show is ment to show a difference in culture

But that doesn't mean that the jelly version of the bubble tea is not something unique in Taiwan.

if you can buy it somewhere else how can it be unique?

Because the jelly version originated in Taiwan and is very popular in Taiwan.

actually that is debated. some hong kong buiness said they actually invented it but never sold it on a large scale. but the taiwanese were the first to sell it commerically

the can food and instant noodles made from China and Taiwan are quite different. I tasted them both.

china exports lots of food to taiwan. and imports the a lot back. i dont see how different flavour noodles can affect people cultrually

Simply put, I talk to people from Hong Kong and China before, and there is not a lot of common interests which I find in other Taiwanese. This doesn't mean that we have not common interests. A friend from Hong Kong for example, also like Video games. But things like jokes, way of talking, topic of discussion etc are a bit different from Taiwanese. And as I said before, this is a good thing, not a bad thing.

i dont think you talked to any northern chinese?. they are quite differnt from southerners.

talk to someone in xingjiang and then in shanghai. they are both in china. you will find them very different

Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that they are originated from Taiwan. If I watch Tonigh Show with Jay Leno, that doesn't make me an American, even though the show is the product of US culture. The important thing is the content, not the location.

what shows or TV stations are they from. because then i can compare them to something from china or korea

As I mentioned before, I talk to some of them or listening to some of their conversations already and I don't feel the same. And northern and southern Chinese are a bit different as well.

northern and southern chinese are more different from fujian to taiwan

Originally posted by twchang
Not sure what this quote means but from my understanding, Zhang(Chang) and Yang kidnaps Chiang because Chiang was focusing on defeating CCP, which has retreated westward during that time.

Zhang before the attempt asked Zhou Enlai to come. they forced him to fight the japanese which he didn't do

Chiang "ignore" Japanese attack because of various reasons.

1937 or 1931?

First, he knew that China can not win over Japan during that time because industries just start setting up in southern China and there is no support for heavy military weapons. Second, he thinks it is better to clear out communists before confronting Japan. Of course all these are historians speculation based on their diaries extra in later date.

he said this.
"the communist are a disease of the heart while the japanese are a disease of the skin"

he wanted to get rid of the communist so that he could be a one man country

Chang and Yang thought otherwise. Their homeland, north east of China are invaded and harassed by Japan. And with a lot of other personal reasons, they decided to kidnap Chiang.

china was getting threatened by the japanese in the north while Chiang Kai-shek wanted to considate his power on china.

People were wondering why chinese were fighting chinese. they wanted to go north and fight the japanese.

HowlrunnerIV,
Vietnam and Taiwan are heavily different.

It would be better to compare Iraq to Taiwan and the beach-landing the British and American forces to did with the support of helicopters and hover-craft.

I assume we all know what happend there?

Tanks were taken out by the helicopters and kept distance so the people couldn't do damage to them with small arms fire and RPG, etc.

Originally posted by rogue1
^^^ LMAO, yeah you just keep on telling yourself that if it makes you feel better

The communists didn't help in any way. They just supported it verbally DUH. As your source states KMT generals masterminded the kidnapping not the communists.

i think my source clearly states that they did help. or cant you read?

KMT generals Zhang Xueliang and Yang Hucheng (with the support of the Communist leader Zhou Enlai), kidnapped Chiang Kai-shek and forced him to join a united front with the Communists against the Japanese.

Originally posted by Odium
HowlrunnerIV,
Vietnam and Taiwan are heavily different.

It would be better to compare Iraq to Taiwan and the beach-landing the British and American forces to did with the support of helicopters and hover-craft.

So, you're saying Taiwan is a 3rd world country with zip infrastructure, no money, lousy unwilling conscripts, 40 year-old machinery and an information minister who should be given his own late-night talk show?

and rogue1. here is the meaning of captured.

1. To take captive, as by force or craft; seize.
2. To gain possession or control of, as in a game or contest: capture the queen in chess; captured the liberal vote.
3. To attract and hold: tales of adventure that capture the imagination.
4. To succeed in preserving in lasting form: capture a likeness in a painting.

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
Actually watched Blackhawk Down lately? Those were RPG 7s. No guidance, no targeting.

You hit the tail rotor and the helo pilot can kiss his arse goodbye.

Yes, kills of Hinds prior to Stinger were pretty rare, but that was a group of guerillas fighting at night with no serious training in either tactics or weapons in mountains that gave the fairly well-trained pilots lots of cover. Ever seen footage of those battles, the AA gunners were firing like it was the Battle of Britain, if I shoot up I'm guaranteed to hit something.

You can't compare the tactics used in Afghanistan to those in Somalia. Anyone could hit a helicopter with an RPG if it were hovering 10 mteres above the ground overhead. Hind gunships are armoured to withstand .50 HMG gunfire, whereas Blackhawks aren't. It is widely acknowleged not least by the no.2 man in the Pakistani ISI ( the man who ran the war ), that without stingers the mujahideen would be defeated.
You should stop making generalisations which are obviously wrong as your arguments suffer.

[edit on 23-8-2005 by rogue1]

Originally posted by chinawhite
and rogue1. here is the meaning of captured.


1. To take captive, as by force or craft; seize.
2. To gain possession or control of, as in a game or contest: capture the queen in chess; captured the liberal vote.
3. To attract and hold: tales of adventure that capture the imagination.
4. To succeed in preserving in lasting form: capture a likeness in a painting.

lol so what, the communists didn't capture him, it was 2 disaffected KMT generals. Subject closed.

[edit on 23-8-2005 by rogue1]

Originally posted by Odium
HowlrunnerIV,
Vietnam and Taiwan are heavily different.

It would be better to compare Iraq to Taiwan and the beach-landing the British and American forces to did with the support of helicopters and hover-craft.

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
So, you're saying Taiwan is a 3rd world country with zip infrastructure, no money, lousy unwilling conscripts, 40 year-old machinery and an information minister who should be given his own late-night talk show?

Nope and I wouldn't have said most of that about Iraq.

However Vietnam and Somalia are very different. In vietnam they did not have the accuracy we now see and China are working on. They had heavy cover which they won't in Taiwan on the beachs. (there are a few which are pretty much empty and prime targets).

M60A3 and the M48H will easily taken care of by several helicopters, who can hit them while out of the tanks range. The Chinese are not stupid, they will make sure to do maximum damage quickly and do it from range outside of the Taiwanese units.

Also the fact the majority of Taiwan's tanks are M-41 and M-24 which will easily be destoryed by helicopters. Especailly since each one is equipped with roughly 16missiles and I have seen reports of China wanting to push out several hundred of the newer version by 2010 as well as import some from Russia. Which I can only assume would be the Ka-50 or Ka-52.

Originally posted by rogue1
lol so what, the communists didn't capture him, it was 2 disaffected KMT generals. Subject closed.

no the subject is not closed. it says to take captive.

a captive is someone in your possesion that is not free to go.

now its closed

Originally posted by rogue1
You can't compare the tactics used in Afghanistan to those in Somalia. Anyone could hit a helicopter with an RPG if it were hovering 10 mteres above the ground overhead. Hind gunships are armoured to withstand .50 HMG gunfire, whereas Blackhawks aren't.
[edit on 23-8-2005 by rogue1]

whats the difference between getting hit with a RPG at 20 meters than 10 meters.? they both use a HEA warhead so the distance wouldn't matter.

Enought with the two of you. If the back and forth symantics continue with minimal posts and sniping warns will be handed out.

Originally posted by rogue1
You can't compare the tactics used in Afghanistan to those in Somalia. Anyone could hit a helicopter with an RPG if it were hovering 10 mteres above the ground overhead. Hind gunships are armoured to withstand .50 HMG gunfire, whereas Blackhawks aren't. It is widely acknowleged not least by the no.2 man in the Pakistani ISI ( the man who ran the war ), that without stingers the mujahideen would be defeated.
You should stop making generalisations which are obviously wrong as your arguments suffer.

Not all of the hits in Somalia were of helicopters hovering at 10 metres. In fact, only one was. And it was fighters with experience from Afghanistan who showed the Somalis how to modify RPGs so the back-blast wouldn't kill the user when firing AA.

Again, I ask you, have you seen combat footage of the Mujahideen in Afghanistan? I have.

Yes, Hind D is the most heavily armoured gunship of all time, hence the nickname "flying tank". It still has a tail rotor. Which is not proof against .50cal. And where do I say .50 cal was the weapon used?

And it still doesn't counter the argument that "high tens" of helicopter gunships would be of highly questionable value when planning the amphibious assault of Taiwan.

The argument is this: How effective have helicopter gunships been since their invention in VN when machine guns were bolted on the side of the UH1? Not very and good proof of this is Afghanistan where Hind became a favourite target of the Mujahideen because it was such an obvious symbol of Soviet power and such a good kill to celebrate.

It is still extemely easy to kill helicopters with small arms and any scenario in which gunships will be used against a first-world equipped and trained army will always have fast jets flying overhead to protect helicopters. ALWAYS. Because helicopters are too vulnerable on their own. Just as Tanks will ALWAYS have infantry escort.

How many Hind Ds were lost in Afghanistan? How effective were they?
How many Apaches were lost in the Balkans? How effective were they?
How many helicopters were lost in VN?

Helicopters are good for hunting tanks, they're good for transporting troops very quickly across the jungle and they're excellent for CT ops. They're not designed for a complex combined operation against an equally well-equipped and well-trained enemy, that's what GR Harriers are for. The first thing the soldiers will fire at is the helicopter.

[edit on 23-8-2005 by HowlrunnerIV]

Look at the facts.

China will if invading be using;
A large portion of its Air Force to remove Taiwan's ability - by destroying the air-fields.
They have over 500missiles ready to target all of Taiwan's bases.
Several hundred helicopters.
A large Navy [although at the present not large enough] and have been looking into getting Zubr's from Russia.

Each Zubr holds 500 people, they looked into buying 8 in 2004 and then the story went dead.

The Zubr coupled with the troops and the helicopters will cripple the Taiwanese army on the beaches, once all of their bases have been bombed - which will happen in a matter of minutes.

Source
The Mainland now has 610 missiles deployed within range of Taiwan and can mobilize 250,000 troops, 1,000 warplanes and 730 warships in operations against Taiwan, the report said.

[edit on 23/8/2005 by Odium]

[edit on 23/8/2005 by Odium]

Uh huh, all that (no most of it) is accepted.

Now, how many successful combined operations have you seen?

I've seen four, San Carlos Water, Panama, Mogadishu and Iraq (I don't count Grenada as Clint Eastwood films don't count as "seeing").

What did the opposition look like? I don't know, there didn't seem to be any reception committees!

No one is willing to undertake a major amphibious operation without first completely neutralising the enemy's air force, as was done prior to June 6, 1944. So, will the RoCAF be completely neutralised?

I don't know, but it's distinctly possible. However, there might be an extra hundred planes or so waiting on a tin can the other side of the island...

After you've neutralised enemy air assets you need to keep the enemy's head down while you very slowly transit your men across open water from the ship to the beach. What kind of NGS can PLAN muster?

I don't know. But those missiles sure come in handy there. But the missiles need to cover either the entire coast, or just the bit you're going to land on OR you need to know exactly where the enemy is and target just that.

Now you come in with your helicopters. With their fancy Italian engines and their 360kph speeds. And every man with a weapon will be looking straight at them and thinking "Die you commie bastard."

You've got to get those 500 men onto the beach to use them.

Isn't Taiwan testing a maritime cruise missile? Wow, look at that, I just killed 500 chicom troopers. Ask the Guards what happened to them on the Galahad.

Say, there's a bunch of boats in the harbour headed our way and some helos flying in front of them and we've got these fancy Sam thingies...You blokes with the rifles shoot at the men, we'll see what these toys can do...and hey, anyone on a hillside with a .50cal, feel free to join in...

Fast jets? Yeah, they're noisy and scary, but they don't like to get too low, you know, can be kind of fatal...and we all know how good PLAAF pilots are at flying close to slow moving objects...you just worry about those helicopters...

The US may have won on Iwo Jima, but at what cost?