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Can China Invade Taiwan?

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posted on Aug, 18 2005 @ 08:33 AM
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Originally posted by devilwasp

Originally posted by Odium
May day 2002.
Miners Strike.
Riots in the 1960's.
On going riots in Germany.
Rubber bullets in Ireland? What 17 dead since 1969.

Well people are still alive which got beaten by the military/police/Government there is no major difference for those people. No matter how much the Government's try to sugar coat it.

Since when did rubber bullets equal running over someone in a tank?


A life is a life...




posted on Aug, 18 2005 @ 08:37 AM
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Originally posted by Odium
A life is a life...

Not if one is trying to kill you.



posted on Aug, 18 2005 @ 08:38 AM
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Originally posted by devilwasp

Originally posted by Odium
A life is a life...

Not if one is trying to kill you.


An 11 year old child was trying to kill the British Military in Ireland?



posted on Aug, 18 2005 @ 08:40 AM
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Originally posted by Odium
An 11 year old child was trying to kill the British Military in Ireland?

Has happened, ever heard of child soldiers?



posted on Aug, 18 2005 @ 08:44 AM
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Originally posted by devilwasp

Originally posted by Odium
An 11 year old child was trying to kill the British Military in Ireland?

Has happened, ever heard of child soldiers?


"Francis Rowntree, an 11-year old Catholic boy, was shot in the head by a British soldier at close range in Belfast. " (1972)
en.wikipedia.org...

British Military/Police knew you have to fire down on the ground and have the bullets bounce up. They never did this.



posted on Aug, 18 2005 @ 08:55 AM
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Originally posted by Odium
"Francis Rowntree, an 11-year old Catholic boy, was shot in the head by a British soldier at close range in Belfast. " (1972)
en.wikipedia.org...

British Military/Police knew you have to fire down on the ground and have the bullets bounce up. They never did this.

What?
Bullets ricochet up? Thats more dangerous than spraying in the air.
The bullet ( rubber or not) will fragment and spray everyone around.
Believe me, I've seen a target that had it done, was scary....I was the marker for the target.



posted on Aug, 18 2005 @ 08:58 AM
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Originally posted by devilwasp

Originally posted by Odium
"Francis Rowntree, an 11-year old Catholic boy, was shot in the head by a British soldier at close range in Belfast. " (1972)
en.wikipedia.org...

British Military/Police knew you have to fire down on the ground and have the bullets bounce up. They never did this.

What?
Bullets ricochet up? Thats more dangerous than spraying in the air.
The bullet ( rubber or not) will fragment and spray everyone around.
Believe me, I've seen a target that had it done, was scary....I was the marker for the target.


Nope, both rubber and plastic bullets are meant to be fired at the floor so they bounce up and hit low level normally (shins, etc) never meant to be targetted at the head or anywhere above the stomach otherwise things like what happend to Francis Rowntree, happen.



posted on Aug, 18 2005 @ 10:57 AM
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Originally posted by Odium
Nope, both rubber and plastic bullets are meant to be fired at the floor so they bounce up and hit low level normally (shins, etc) never meant to be targetted at the head or anywhere above the stomach otherwise things like what happend to Francis Rowntree, happen.

Yeah they bounce up in about a thousand pieces, because one soldier makes a mistake at firing you think that means the government is as bad as one that ordered a tank to run over students?



posted on Aug, 18 2005 @ 11:24 AM
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Originally posted by Odium
Nope, both rubber and plastic bullets are meant to be fired at the floor so they bounce up and hit low level normally (shins, etc) never meant to be targetted at the head or anywhere above the stomach otherwise things like what happend to Francis Rowntree, happen.



Originally posted by devilwasp
Yeah they bounce up in about a thousand pieces, because one soldier makes a mistake at firing you think that means the government is as bad as one that ordered a tank to run over students?



Source
The British rubber bullets were designed to be fired at the ground so that they would bounce up and hit the legs of demonstrators. They were replaced in 1989 in Northern Ireland by plastic ones because the rubber bullets were considered too dangerous.


I didn't design the bullets, but that's how they are meant to be fired.
It is also not one case though is it? 19 of them?
Then you have the ones in Israel as well...
Germany...etc...

In fact only what 23 Uni Students were killed in the Chinese riot? There was never any proof that tanks actually killed anyone and a majority of the other people were soldiers killed. In fact there is so much confusion around the issue it's doubtful anyone will ever gain the true statistics. But the Uni records show only 23 deaths.


Source
Some types of rubber bullets used by police to restrain unruly protesters kill and maim too often to be considered a safe method of crowd control, new research concludes


You also have things like the Jallianwala massacre, which wasn't that long ago. (1919).
Batang Kali Massacre depending on your view of it.
Zimbabwean war for independence
Sharpeville Massacre in South Africa 1960

Things Fall Apart by Chinua Achebe, is a good read.

The fact is, in the last 50 years several massacres have happend. Korea War for example displays this as do actions in Vietnam. We have no "Moral Highground" to sit on, on this issue and the fact remains. The Chinese have killed people, who were protesting, the British have the American's have, the Israeli's have, the Iraqi's have, etc.

The fact of the matter is, the Chinese Government are displaying change. Yes they are not democratic, but in reality how many Nation's hold a true level of democracy? The public having their say on the issues?

Again for China this seems to be working and who are we to judge? Over the years the British Government has been increasingly corrupt, killed thousands of people on the basis of skin colour, they were protesting, etc and it was on going in the 1990's.

As it was in America.
As it is in South America.


It's clear that the Chinese can invade Taiwan. America is having to spend an increased amount of money on the Middle East and Iraq, which is already having a bad affect on the Nations. The economy is going down-hill, the job market is and many people have said they see another depression during this period.

So who could stand up to China? No one and in turn Taiwan will be dwarfed economically and forced to join China.



posted on Aug, 18 2005 @ 11:37 AM
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It’s clear that the Chinese can invade Taiwan.


Actually it is far from clear and assured, If US CBG’s and forces in the region can get there before they initiate their invasion then its not as clear a picture as you paint.


The economy is going down-hill, the job market is and many people have said they see another depression during this period.


Don’t know what this has to do with Taiwan but I’ll correct your misinformed comments. The Economy is growing at a rate of about 4% and by years end may reach a rate 4.5%. The Job unemployment percent has continued to go down and now its at its lowest at 5%.


So who could stand up to China? No one and in turn Taiwan will be dwarfed economically and forced to join China.


The US and allies willing to help can, and as long as the US stands on their policy
of defending Taiwan in an act of military aggression by china.

[edit on 18-8-2005 by WestPoint23]

[edit on 18-8-2005 by WestPoint23]



posted on Aug, 18 2005 @ 12:37 PM
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Originally posted by Odium
I didn't design the bullets, but that's how they are meant to be fired.
It is also not one case though is it? 19 of them?
Then you have the ones in Israel as well...
Germany...etc...

Yeah mabye 2 DECADES ago, but not now.
19 out of how many troops in the entire army and attached units had in NI?


In fact only what 23 Uni Students were killed in the Chinese riot? There was never any proof that tanks actually killed anyone and a majority of the other people were soldiers killed. In fact there is so much confusion around the issue it's doubtful anyone will ever gain the true statistics. But the Uni records show only 23 deaths.

Yeah but as you said " A life is a life, is it not?"



You also have things like the Jallianwala massacre, which wasn't that long ago. (1919).
Batang Kali Massacre depending on your view of it.
Zimbabwean war for independence
Sharpeville Massacre in South Africa 1960

Things Fall Apart by Chinua Achebe, is a good read.

The fact is, in the last 50 years several massacres have happend. Korea War for example displays this as do actions in Vietnam. We have no "Moral Highground" to sit on, on this issue and the fact remains. The Chinese have killed people, who were protesting, the British have the American's have, the Israeli's have, the Iraqi's have, etc.

Yeah in the last 20 years? I doubt it.



The fact of the matter is, the Chinese Government are displaying change. Yes they are not democratic, but in reality how many Nation's hold a true level of democracy? The public having their say on the issues?

The chinese government TOOK control, never got elected but took it.


Again for China this seems to be working and who are we to judge? Over the years the British Government has been increasingly corrupt, killed thousands of people on the basis of skin colour, they were protesting, etc and it was on going in the 1990's.

What?
They never killed anyone for skin colour in the 1990's, mabye in the 1960's and mabye the 50's but not the 60's.
Thats when the civil rights campeigned and won.


It's clear that the Chinese can invade Taiwan. America is having to spend an increased amount of money on the Middle East and Iraq, which is already having a bad affect on the Nations. The economy is going down-hill, the job market is and many people have said they see another depression during this period.

What?
Says who?
You?
This is very typical of you od..


So who could stand up to China? No one and in turn Taiwan will be dwarfed economically and forced to join China.

Yet again, opinion.
You see china as this "unconcourable beast" mabye this is another attempt to say
government and get more money in the MOD?
Sounds like it to me...



posted on Aug, 18 2005 @ 07:35 PM
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devilwasp, I wish it was the case and it ended in the 1960's.

However racial-profiling is still used today, look at this article:
archives.cnn.com...
You might remember, how the Police shot the kid without telling him to stop, etc, because they assumed he had a gun because his lighter was shaped like it.

In fact, they miss out how small those are and how they actually look - designed to not look that much like a real gun with a cap on the end as well.

Poor police work, cost a child his life because they profiled him due to his race.

And my point about a life being a life, still stands however you are making out the Chinese are worse by the way they "killed" people although the Uni Reports never mentioned any crushed bodies by tanks and was able to identify all the students.

DevilWasp, that's what a revolution is. We've done that as well? As have the American's and in the early days of the United States they massacered more people than the Chinese did.

No, my view on the economy is from things like this:

As well as people I know in places like N.C. where more and more factories are shutting down.
stats.bls.gov...#
As well as the fact the American economy seems to be at a stand-still which without Iraq and the extra $230billion going into their economy it would have probably fallen by now already.
Oh and the fact over 60% of the population is between 15 and 64.
www.prcdc.org...
Third of the population over 45...doesn't look good.

The World Fact Book (C.I.A.) places Chinese economic growth at 9.1% against American's 4.4% with an amazingly high unemployment rate. However slowly, they have been pushing large portions of new labour into the market in China allowing for a much faster growth rate over the next 3/4 years.

China's not an unconquerable beast, I just look at the chances of invading it as against our favour but also as a good thing. A strong America, E.U. Russia, Brazil, China and India will result in less Nations being able to bully each other.

And yes, the E.U. and the U.K. need to put more money into the military. It's about time they move up to the position where an invasion would be near impossible and to put effort into an amazing anti-aircraft and missile system.

Which again would cause less nations to throw their weight about in the World.



posted on Aug, 18 2005 @ 08:02 PM
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Originally posted by Odium
devilwasp, I wish it was the case and it ended in the 1960's.

Yeah I screwed up in the post, it ended in the 1960's when the civil rights groups finally won, shame it cost so many lives though.


However racial-profiling is still used today, look at this article:
archives.cnn.com...
You might remember, how the Police shot the kid without telling him to stop, etc, because they assumed he had a gun because his lighter was shaped like it.

In fact, they miss out how small those are and how they actually look - designed to not look that much like a real gun with a cap on the end as well.

Poor police work, cost a child his life because they profiled him due to his race.

No they profiled him due to him holding what looked like a weapon.
If a person comes towards you WITH a weapon you are entirely allowed to engage him if he appears to be a threat to you.


And my point about a life being a life, still stands however you are making out the Chinese are worse by the way they "killed" people although the Uni Reports never mentioned any crushed bodies by tanks and was able to identify all the students.

I am saying my country has made some bad calls, but your the one thats demonizing it.
I am showing how we are not the wrost.


DevilWasp, that's what a revolution is. We've done that as well? As have the American's and in the early days of the United States they massacered more people than the Chinese did.

Yeah but the thing is america changed, china hasnt.
I dont like revolutions, they cause death and destruction and show that people cant live by the law.


No, my view on the economy is from things like this:

As well as people I know in places like N.C. where more and more factories are shutting down.
stats.bls.gov...#
As well as the fact the American economy seems to be at a stand-still which without Iraq and the extra $230billion going into their economy it would have probably fallen by now already.
Oh and the fact over 60% of the population is between 15 and 64.
www.prcdc.org...
Third of the population over 45...doesn't look good.

WTH did economy come into this argument?


The World Fact Book (C.I.A.) places Chinese economic growth at 9.1% against American's 4.4% with an amazingly high unemployment rate. However slowly, they have been pushing large portions of new labour into the market in China allowing for a much faster growth rate over the next 3/4 years.

I direct you the statement I just made.


China's not an unconquerable beast, I just look at the chances of invading it as against our favour but also as a good thing. A strong America, E.U. Russia, Brazil, China and India will result in less Nations being able to bully each other.

LOL!
You think we would invade china???/


And yes, the E.U. and the U.K. need to put more money into the military. It's about time they move up to the position where an invasion would be near impossible and to put effort into an amazing anti-aircraft and missile system.

We already have amazing anti aircraft and missile systems.
The rapier is one of the best in the world.
We use the same missiles as the americans, we have the best tech.


Which again would cause less nations to throw their weight about in the World.

How?
More weapons doesnt make a safer world...



posted on Aug, 18 2005 @ 08:15 PM
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Of course more weapon's do not make a safer world, but living in fear doesn't either.

As for that kid, no he didn't walk towards the Police and didn't point it at them. He had a cigarette in one hand and went into his pocket, pulling it out.

The Police never told him to stop, etc, they just shot and it has happened before. I don't deny over the last years we have had a better record than many Nation's but we're not innocent either.

And have things in American really changed? Segregation lasted until 1979...don't forget it took them how many years? And then think how long China has existed and is already showing major improvements.

Will we invade China? Will be left a choice?
If they land on Taiwan and take it over, you'll have to force them out of Taiwan some-way and with only a limited number of air-craft and boats in the region all at once. Didn't you say in another post it'd take about 24hrs for the British carriers to get there? That's 12trips too and from Taiwan. Enough to set up and hold out and if China isn't taken on in their own territory it will be easy enough for them to keep re-making the trips to Taiwan.

Have the Chinese also not been showing interest in the Zubr hovercraft?
www.unexplainable.net...

And the U.K. has some good technology, but I mean E.U. as a whole. They have what second largest economy in the World with a larger growth rate?

The economy is also an important factor on if a Nation can afford to go to war or not. In some respects it can help boost a flagging economy as it helped in WW2 for the American's, however it can do the complete opposite.

If you don't like revolutions how can you like democracy? How can you like the fact we have the right to vote?

Yes people die but in the end some revolutions benefit the people (as a majority) and if it wasn't needed it would not happen.



posted on Aug, 18 2005 @ 09:46 PM
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I've asked this question and I'm surprised nobody has answered it.

What sorts of cultural and social effects are in store for a war or even an intense rivalry between the U.S. and China in the United States?



posted on Aug, 19 2005 @ 12:54 AM
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Originally posted by devilwasp

Your still weakening the defence by increasing the offence.


weaking chinas defence from areas that wont see much action





So now its only under a decade old...


so?





Really?
Mine suggeted 90-100.


sinodefence huh?




Ah but thing is, the majority of them are A2A figthers, not A2G.


defence/attack.




Nuclear subs tend to be quiter because if you can afford a nuke reactor, you can afford to keep it quiet.


what about rusian olds




Ah but thing is, its not just 85, its the actual task force itself.


kitty hawk is the only forward deployed carrier. it will be some time because others come





OOOK then, your saying they will be fireing ballistic missiles at taiwan?
They want to take the island, not nuke it!


we weren't even talking about taiwan. its about attacking american military bases





So buying off terrorists will stop them?
We tried that with germany, didnt work ethier.


it does work.



posted on Aug, 19 2005 @ 12:57 AM
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Originally posted by devilwasp

Can one of them stop a tomahawk?


they will be protected from a screem of land based SAMS. and Sea based SAMs



Well, it really depends on what countries and what vehicles.
It all depends.


not when its a surprise. what do you get out of presenting false information




Nope, germany, britian, etc.


nuclear weapons are different from getting kicked out of military bases.



Size makes bugger all diference.
The princible is the same.


in britain you could still grow food. in those islands you cant grow food for 50,000 people. no supplies in 30days will kill them.



posted on Aug, 19 2005 @ 01:00 AM
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Originally posted by devilwasp

Since when did rubber bullets equal running over someone in a tank?


did they? provide some proof.



posted on Aug, 19 2005 @ 01:04 AM
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Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
I've asked this question and I'm surprised nobody has answered it.

What sorts of cultural and social effects are in store for a war or even an intense rivalry between the U.S. and China in the United States?


I am surprised too. I may depend on where you live. My wife is part Chinese and we live in the SF Bay Area. I doubt you will see a huge change as the population is large and well intergrated. You may see a whole lot of clearances yanked in government positions and contractors doing government work (backlash from the Lee incident). Other parts of the US? I do not live there so I will not comment.


What would get interesting is if you actually got a large segment of the population activly trying to boycott goods. My family still trys as I outlined in a OP/ED last year, and we have found acceptable substitutes in about 40% of the cases. We can afford to do so and it does cost more. But that would be the likely move id say.



posted on Aug, 19 2005 @ 01:06 AM
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Guys and Gal's please lay off the big quotes Mkay??? And breaking one big quote into 10 is still a big quote


[edit on 8/19/05 by FredT]

[edit on 8/19/05 by FredT]



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