Can China Invade Taiwan?

this is what i worked out. its roughly 3200km from the tip of kyushu island to taipei. not including patrol engagement time. but this is not even where the air battles will take place but a little bit more down.

can someone give me ranges ffor the F-2/F-16 and F-15

Originally posted by chinawhite
taiwan is not a country it is a state of china. you dont even know what your talking about

To you it is, infect to china, yes taiwan is part of china. to most of taiwan, No. To the US, most of Amercians think taiwan is not part of china.

china has large transports not small ones

he said "mini-ships"

As a whole chinas airforce is obsolete. but china has 300-400 4th gen fighters.

you mean copied 4th gen fighters

who needs to destroy taiwans cities? roughly 49-50% of taiwanese support unification/status quo

i didn't said you have to destory taiwan cities? he said china destory every single city.

Originally posted by chinawhite
do you know how far it is from japan proper to taiwan.

Do you know how far tankers can go?

go and try

I wont but the US probably will.

because they stated that they are neatural in the war

War?
You mean this "war" that might happen or a "war" that has happened.

yes

I dont think so.

huh.?

Britain was quite good friends with germany in the earyl 1900s (Worse though when the new kaiser came into power.)

yes there is. its called fatique

Ever heard of rotateing crews.....

Originally posted by LemonAide
What Taiwan needs to think about for the future is that as the PRC's ability to make war increases, how much of its economy does it want to devote to maintaining its military? Maintaining and training for war is a full time job. Does it make more sense for its people to make a permanent peace with the PRC? We've seen with the Cold war that a war can be won without direct confrontation. BTW, I get a

from some of the discussions on this forum. So many people have forgotten what the cold war taught us it seems.

Yes, making peace make sense. I am sure no one in Taiwan wants war. However, there are other things that must come before peace otherwise people will just become slaves. You can not make peace for peace's sake. And peace does not mean give up arms. If someone practices some kung-fu, karate or whatever, it does not mean they are going to kick people on the street.

In my personal opinion, the PRC will never accept Taiwan as a country. Being friends with the US doesn't count for much in the long run when you have this massive giant within a stone's throw of your shores. Taiwan needs to talk peace and try to make the best deal for itself as a part of China.

Well, peace doesn't happen in one way. And peace can not happen just by Taiwan "talking" about it. This might sound stupid, but sometimes size is not all that matter. And why shouldn't Taiwan be friendly with US or other countries, but just be friendly to China, when China is pointing missiles at Taiwan? If Taiwan shouldn't be friendly to US, then why should Taiwan be friendly to China?

I would even go so far as to suggest the PRC might accept a special democratic province of Taiwan. The people who say the "commies" won't accept that are too narrow minded in my opinion.

That is basically the "one china, two system" policy advocated by China.

Notice that Taiwan's military are "defensive" in nature and therefore Taiwan doesn't have to start an arm race with China or compete with other nations

I always laugh at that one. To some people even the PLA is a "defensive" force. It has just sufficient capability to fight locally; not very far from its borders. It must be a defensive force......

.......

I don't think that is very true. The mindset of Chinese military is definitely offensive. I am not saying they are going to invade US or something but at least they are thinking of offensive defense...the best defense is offense kind of thinking. That is why they developed long range ballistic missiles, submarines etc. They are also developing fleet and trying to extend its reach. And if China is looking beyond Taiwan and trying to increase its influence, its military will act even more aggressive.

Oh, and just by considering using military force to "unite" Taiwan means offensive thinking, otherwise how are you going to "invade"?

[edit on 11-8-2005 by twchang]

[edit on 11-8-2005 by twchang]

Originally posted by twchang
However, there are other things that must come before peace otherwise people will just become slaves. You can not make peace for peace's sake.

The entire population of mainland China is not made up of slaves. That sounded like KMT rhetoric. What I'm suggesting is that Taiwan become apart of the rest of China; with its own specific provincial previlages if it so desires and negotiates for it. This is not a cold war that Taiwan can win. Taiwan's defensive posture is not anyway to win a war. An offensive posture would be suicide. The PRC is dictating when this war starts, how it will be fought, and possibly how it will end. Even if we trade every life in Taiwan for the same number of lives in the PRC, the PRC still comes out on top. Who will win in that case? Peace means both sides will have to make concessions. How else do you think this conflict can come to an end?

And peace does not mean give up arms. If someone practices some kung-fu,

Yes, peace does mean giving up arms. On both sides. That's the whole point. What good is peace if you are still building up arms to fight each other in the future? Peace means returning the budgets used for arms to social programs. Removing the ability to fight each other.

all that matter. And why shouldn't Taiwan be friendly with US or other countries, but just be friendly to China, when China is pointing missiles at Taiwan? If Taiwan shouldn't be friendly to US, then why should Taiwan be friendly to China?

I reiterate the above about giving up arms. To repeat another point I made, China will not accept an independant Taiwan. One important part of that is that China will not accept Taiwan dictating its own foreign policy. Mind you, this does not mean Walmart can't setup factories in Taipei, or Acer sell its wares to the UK.

That is basically the "one china, two system" policy advocated by China.

Yup. I don't know what this deal means specifically. It's the best way suggested so far towards a long term peace. Taiwan needs to be very aggressive in negotiating what this deal specifically means.

I don't think that is very true. The mindset of Chinese military is definitely offensive. I am not saying they are going to invade US or something but at

Does nobody on this forum know what sarcasm is?!?!

[edit on 11-8-2005 by LemonAide]

Originally posted by chinawhite
this is what i worked out. its roughly 3200km from the tip of kyushu island to taipei. not including patrol engagement time. but this is not even where the air battles will take place but a little bit more down.

can someone give me ranges ffor the F-2/F-16 and F-15

Combat radius 833 km for F2

More than 2,000 miles ferry range (1,740nm for F16

more than 3,500 miles ferry range (conformal fuel tanks plus 3 external fuel tanks) For F15


There you go man!


You actually kinda got me intrested in this thread!

Don't think giving up military arm completely to achieve peace is possible. The most important point of national defense is to defend possible threat, and in this world you can not trust others fully. And having national defense is usually not a big deal, because most nations don't intend to use it to attack others. It is when a nation that has hostile intention and massive arms that will make others nervous. It would be like seeing an angry person with a bazooka on the street.

To unify with China to achieve "peace" means the full confidense in China, which is nearly impossible when China has threaten Taiwan numerous time.

Do you know the 228 incident of Taiwan? If you know you will see my point.

Also, if Taiwan becomes part of China, it is very likely that Taiwan will become targets of US if a war breaks out between China and US. Taiwan has been attacked by the US during WW2. I can still see the bullet holes made by US fighters on a water tower near a train station at my home town. My grand parents need to hide into the mountain when US air raid starts.

Imagine if during WW2, Taiwan is part of China or US, then Taiwan will be bombed by Japan.

Either way, Taiwan loses. So the best for Taiwan is to be able to decide its own future, become part of international communities, not to just become a puppet of other nations.

[Edit] Another thing worth mentioning is that Taiwan only spend 2.4% of its GDP on defense, as I mentioned before. This is much lower than Israel and South Korea, which are also small nations facing threats. For this reason, the government of Taiwan wants to raise it to 3%, which is reasonable. So there is not much Taiwan can do in terms of "lowering gun", becasue by spending less than that, Taiwan probably won't even have proper coast guard.

[edit on 11-8-2005 by twchang]


[edit on 11-8-2005 by twchang]

Originally posted by devilwasp

Do you know how far tankers can go?

you would need around three refuels in a F-16 to get to taiwan and back

I wont but the US probably will.

yeah show some proof

War?
You mean this "war" that might happen or a "war" that has happened.

A war between the US and china

I dont think so.

your telling me that russia is going to let america launch planes from her airfields

Britain was quite good friends with germany in the earyl 1900s (Worse though when the new kaiser came into power.)

they were in competetion for ages. i wouldn't call that friendship

Ever heard of rotateing crews.....

not when your still in the air

Originally posted by ulshadow


To you it is, infect to china, yes taiwan is part of china. to most of taiwan, No. To the US, most of Amercians think taiwan is not part of china.

nearly every country in the world reconizes chinas soverign of taiwan. its just this online community at ATS that doesn't know.

you mean copied 4th gen fighters

copied off who?

Originally posted by chinawhite
you would need around three refuels in a F-16 to get to taiwan and back

A B-2 or a B-52 can cause damage.

yeah show some proof

I cant, the PLAN hasnt tried to take taiwan.

A war between the US and china

Wont happen.

your telling me that russia is going to let america launch planes from her airfields

Depends on the price..

they were in competetion for ages. i wouldn't call that friendship

Compitition?
You mean like her massive colony of say one.
Wow yeah real compitition.
Mabye your thinking of france...

not when your still in the air

2 crews can be on the same plane.


[edit on 26/02/2005 by devilwasp]

[edit on 26/02/2005 by devilwasp]

Originally posted by chinawhite
nearly every country in the world reconizes chinas soverign of taiwan. its just this online community at ATS that doesn't know.

Actually that's pretty true. Recall what I said about politicians basing their decisions on what they have to gain or lose. This comes into play again. Many countries side with PRC because they want the benefits that the PRC gives them, such as trade, weapons deals, backing against certain other country, backing their own national interests, etc.

They do not gain as much benefit by siding with Taiwan. Taiwan might offer them a little trade and some weapon deals but nowhere near as much as PRC. And since not many countries want Taiwan as a foothold of power and influence or as a proxy state to compete with China (only the US wants these), they don't really give a damn whether Taiwan is part of PRC or not.

[edit on 11-8-2005 by Taishyou]

"They do not gain as much benefit by siding with Taiwan. Taiwan might offer them a little trade and some weapon deals but nowhere near as much as PRC. And since not many countries want Taiwan as a foothold of power and influence or as a proxy state to compete with China (only the US wants these), they don't really give a damn whether Taiwan is part of PRC or not. "

Taishyou,

I want you to read some of the articles in today's(8/12/05) edition of
www.taipeitimes.com...

There is an article about our top negotiator to NK talks not brokering the subject of Taiwan and NK in the same sentence w/ China.

There's an arty about high ranking US military visit to Taiwan for talks .

There's a arty about Ereli not mashing Chen's transit stops and the arms budget.

The US and Taiwan are close in action on all corners.

Deny Ignorance

Originally posted by Taishyou

Actually that's pretty true. Recall what I said about politicians basing their decisions on what they have to gain or lose. This comes into play again. Many countries side with PRC because they want the benefits that the PRC gives them, such as trade, weapons deals, backing against certain other country, backing their own national interests, etc.

Frankly I don't see the bigwigs supporting china's claim on Taiwan for "fear" of chinese economic sanctions..
If you're talking about the SCO and maybe those countires in Africa then okay..
But thats almost as pathetic as the "coalition of the willing"...

Originally posted by devilwasp

A B-2 or a B-52 can cause damage.

we are talking about western airforces. not american

I cant, the PLAN hasnt tried to take taiwan.

something like a treaty.

Compitition?
You mean like her massive colony of say one.
Wow yeah real compitition.
Mabye your thinking of france...

naval arms race

2 crews can be on the same plane.

on a F-15 or F-16

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Frankly I don't see the bigwigs supporting china's claim on Taiwan for "fear" of chinese economic sanctions..
If you're talking about the SCO and maybe those countires in Africa then okay..
But thats almost as pathetic as the "coalition of the willing"...

you have nothing to gain from supporting taiwan but a lot to lose if you do.

"you have nothing to gain from supporting taiwan but a lot to lose if you do. "

Sorry , the US has repeatedly said it's sticking by Taiwan at every turn and we won't be the loser China's commie devils will be the losers.

no they haven't

they dont support taiwanese independence but only want to keep the status quo

So you say!

Here's another arty from an alter view(the situ is not as U say):


US pushes at China's edges

Washington is shoring up diplomatic connections along China's borders as Beijing moves to expand its influence in the region
By Simon Tisdall
THE GUARDIAN , LONDON
Friday, Aug 12, 2005,Page 9



ILLUSTRATION: YU SHA

US President George W. Bush's personal interest in Mongolia might be considered limited. Yet, when the country's then leader visited Washington last year, the US president enthusiastically declared "a new era of comprehensive partnership."

Mongolia's 2.6 million people occupy an area of 1.6 million km2 (the UK has nearly 60 million people in 246,000km2). While Mongolia has oil, its main resource is 20 million sheep and goats. But ruminants were not the reason Bush was all riled up.

Mongolia is geographically sandwiched between China and Russia. And it has been steadily drawn into what Walter Russell Mead of the Council on Foreign Relations in New York calls the "strategic net" being woven by the US in Asia to "persuade China to keep its ambitions within reason."

Alarmed by China's rapid rise, and to a lesser extent by its developing collaboration with Russia, the US is pushing back. Results range from a sudden warming of relations with Vietnam to plans for "strategic partnership" with India.

`Alarmed by China's rapid rise ... the US is pushing back. Results range from a sudden warming of relations with Vietnam to plans for "strategic partnership" with India.'



"China has become one of the largest traders and investors with many Asian countries," Assistant Secretary of State for East Asia Christopher Hill told the Senate in June.

But he noted that while US investment in Southeast Asian countries totaled over US$85 billion, China's amounted to only US$2 billion.

While Beijing wielded influence in places such as North Korea, Burma and Cambodia, Hill pointed to America's "strong and enduring alliances with Japan, Australia, South Korea, Thailand and the Philippines." In terms of global power politics, he suggested, it was no contest.

The corollary to stepped-up US efforts to contain and integrate China is steady US pressure on Russia via Moscow's former Soviet satellites.

Even as US forces were ordered out of Uzbekistan, which has reached energy deals with Moscow and Beijing, leases on US military bases in Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan were renewed last month.

And despite Russian President Vladimir Putin's warnings to foreign-funded non-governmental organizations (NGOs) not to dabble in politics in the former Soviet republics, Washington shows no sign of backing off.

Further to the west, the US and its favored ally, Poland, seem to be preparing another pro-democracy front in Belarus, where President Alexander Lukashenko's authoritarian regime faces elections next year.

And in Georgia and Ukraine, scene of the original Western-backed "color revolutions" that the Kremlin fears could be emulated at home, the US is being urged to do more.

Georgia's pro-West leader, President Mikhail Saakashvili, claimed recently that Washington had pledged to resolve Russian-fueled separatist problems in Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

"We have a political understanding that something should be done and there can be some kind of US role," he told the Wall Street Journal Europe.

The US undoubtedly faces a long-term battle for influence in the Asia-Pacific area. But, says Fiona Hill of the Brookings Institution in Washington, there are present-day limits to what even Beijing and Moscow combined can do in response to the US' "soft power" offensives.

"China has got a lot of internal problems such as unrest in the rural areas, and energy is its Achilles heel," Hill said.

To keep growing, China needed to keep vital export markets open, principally in the US. For this and other reasons, for example, experts say direct confrontation over Taiwan is unlikely.

"Russia gets infuriated with the US but at the same time it is incredibly worried about China. Some [Russian] military analysts say, `China could turn against us but we are selling them all these arms. Is this sensible?'" Hill said.

The upshot, according to a UK Defense Academy study by Mark Smith, is that while pursuing closer ties, "neither side has any interest in creating a formal anti-American alliance."

While China may ultimately go it alone, "fear of being marginalized has played a large part in driving the Putin leadership towards strategic partnership with the US and the EU," Smith said.

In this sense, closer China-Russia collaboration reflects current weakness, not strength. As the US spins its web, expect more Mongolian-style mutton diplomacy.

www.taipeitimes.com...

It's deeper, broader and complex than you let on, chinawhite!

Both China and Russia crave, desire, need better ties w/ the US!

No matter what is said at times of frustration, the US is like a Daddy to the answer seeking world!

An issue to remeber when talking about war between PRC and US
What will the neighbours of china do if the war starts.

Russia will gain nothing if they sit quietly in the corner nor if they ally themselves with PRC. If they instead wait until chinese military is massed down south to deal with situation at hand in taiwan and then launch an offensive to northern china in support of USA. Russians will have a change to gain massive resourses in northern china as well as regain partial dominance in region.
At this stage Tibet will probably revolt and try to regain their independece.
India will most likely try to take their share... trying to become dominating nation in the region.

Can China survive wars/uprisings in 3 or 4 fronts?