Can China Invade Taiwan?

Originally posted by EngineMan2145
Until the Chinese prove that, the U.S. will remain weary of them. They also have been aiming missiles at Taiwan and building up their military. Until they prove themselves to not be the new version of the Soviet Union, the U.S. will remain weary.

Of ocurse it is about governing the country over there. They want to build a strong infrastructure to build a strong economy.

And the US has been invading Iraq and Afganistan. China hasn't fired a shot against Taiwan. Now, was that you who said "the Chinese haven't faught a real war in years"? How do you see the ChiCom's as being aggressive?

And the US has been developing F-22's, Commanche attack helicopters, Virginia class attack subs, building carriers...etc. Seems like the US is building up their military. Defend against hostile enemies like China you say? You've said yourself that the CURRENT US armed forces can bomb China back to the stone age? Are we going for earlier than that now?

The proof is there infront of anyone willing to make the effort to look at it. My question is simply how much effort has been made to look at it?

I think it is obvious that China and US, and maybe other countries are all trying to build up their militaries.

But what is important is the intention of such actions. US intention seems to be maitaining its superpower status, thus upgrading their weapons and developing new ideas so they can face possible future threats such as terrorists, and protect their interests abroad.

China's intention seems quite clear. Their short and midterm goal is to get Taiwan. It can not be said definitely that they will invade Taiwan, but they are definitely preparing for it. The increasing ballistic, cruise missiles aiming at Taiwan, purchase and production of submarines, frigates, aircrafts etc. Also, their annual military exercise focuses on joint military invasion on island. I think people and some organizations continuously warn against China's military buildups because China always try to down play it by stating things such as "peaceful rise"...etc. Without the warning, people will not notice the buildups.

It might sound funny but even some people in Taiwan don't notice the buildup of Chinese military. When they discuss military precurement budget for example, some Chinese friendly politicians just try to ignore the fact. Taiwan's military spending is only 2 point something percent, which is way lower than other nations that face possible threats, such as Israel and South Korea. Now many people in Taiwan notice it, and hopefully they can do something about it.

[edit on 3-8-2005 by twchang]

[edit on 3-8-2005 by twchang]

Invading Iraq and Afghanistan is completely different. Iraq and Afghanistan were not peaceful democratic nations that the U.S. claimed as its own.

As for military buildup, the U.S. must keep its military up to speed considering that the world would be a real $#*!box if the U.S. wasn't around with all the crap that would start. We also do it to protect our interests and our security.

And yes, I said the CURRENT U.S. military would win against the CURRENT Chinese military. The U.S. must continue to upgrade or the Chinese would catch up eventually.

The U.S. is also involved in many foreign affairs around the world. China isn't. There is no immediate need for them to build up their military. They are not being invaded by anyone and there is no immediate threat to them. The U.S. military respects China's territory. You do not see American subs popping up in Chinese waters and so forth. So for them to consider the U.S. a threat is rather silly, unless they are planning to take Taiwan militarily.

They are building up their naval power. What navy in the world is a threat to them? The United States? Only if they do something to provoke the U.S. into coming at them, which the U.S. has no interest in doing unless absolutely necessary.

Originally posted by EngineMan2145
Invading Iraq and Afghanistan is completely different. Iraq and Afghanistan were not peaceful democratic nations that the U.S. claimed as its own.

As for military buildup, the U.S. must keep its military up to speed considering that the world would be a real $#*!box if the U.S. wasn't around with all the crap that would start. We also do it to protect our interests and our security.

And yes, I said the CURRENT U.S. military would win against the CURRENT Chinese military. The U.S. must continue to upgrade or the Chinese would catch up eventually.

The U.S. is also involved in many foreign affairs around the world. China isn't. There is no immediate need for them to build up their military. They are not being invaded by anyone and there is no immediate threat to them. The U.S. military respects China's territory. You do not see American subs popping up in Chinese waters and so forth. So for them to consider the U.S. a threat is rather silly, unless they are planning to take Taiwan militarily.

They are building up their naval power. What navy in the world is a threat to them? The United States? Only if they do something to provoke the U.S. into coming at them, which the U.S. has no interest in doing unless absolutely necessary.

Good. Now imagine you didn't just write that. Imagine you were governing China or some other country. Imagine, you don't know what the US's intentions are.

You've got a growing economy. A well educated population, culture, history, etc. Good economy. But there's also bad news. You've got internal problems. A few neighbours that don't like you. You've done a few things the US doesn't like (but also somethings that they do like of course). You're competing for the same resources with the US. And, if you play your cards right, you have potential to gain equal status along side the US in a few decades.

How would you respond to the words and changes quoted above? How would you govern? Would you consider yourself evil? Live and learn, dude.

Originally posted by twchang
I think it is obvious that China and US, and maybe other countries are all trying to build up their militaries.

But what is important is the intention of such actions. US intention seems to be maitaining its superpower status, thus upgrading their weapons and developing new ideas so they can face possible future threats such as terrorists, and protect their interests abroad.

China's intention seems quite clear. Their short and midterm goal is to get Taiwan. It can not be said definitely that they will invade Taiwan, but they are definitely preparing for it. The increasing ballistic, cruise missiles aiming at Taiwan, purchase and production of submarines, frigates, aircrafts etc. Also, their annual military exercise focuses on joint military invasion on island. I think people and some organizations continuously warn against China's military buildups because China always try to down play it by stating things such as "peaceful rise"...etc. Without the warning, people will not notice the buildups.

[edit on 3-8-2005 by twchang]

I agree, that the US is fighting to keep its place. But, with all due respect to the Taiwanese, they're just a side action. Otherwise the PLA wouldn't be sending warships to cruise around the world, or peace keepers to Haiti, or special forces to Venezuela, Ukrain.

I think Taiwan is just something to make headlines to keep the Chinese public occupied (kinda like Iraq but without all the shooting). Don't get me wrong, the PLA will fight if necessary. But the communists wouldn't be opening up business relations and tourism if the majority really wanted a war. That'd be like the US accepting Iranian foreign investment or package tours to Tehran.
And Bush is looking for another Soviet Union, so Taiwan's become a big issue.

There's somebody in the PLA who's looking further ahead. Anyway this is going off discussion so I'll stop.

[edit on 3-8-2005 by LemonAide]

Originally posted by LemonAide
I agree, that the US is fighting to keep its place. But, with all due respect to the Taiwanese, they're just a side action. Otherwise the PLA wouldn't be sending warships to cruise around the world, or peace keepers to Haiti, or special forces to Venezuela, Ukrain.

I think Taiwan is just something to make headlines to keep the Chinese public occupied (kinda like Iraq but without all the shooting). Don't get me wrong, the PLA will fight if necessary. But the communists wouldn't be opening up business relations and tourism if the majority really wanted a war. That'd be like the US accepting Iranian foreign investment or package tours to Tehran.
And Bush is looking for another Soviet Union, so Taiwan's become a big issue.

[edit on 3-8-2005 by LemonAide]

Taiwan also send warship to cruise around a bit recently but that doesn't mean much. It is just an exercise for the navy and to visist friendly ports.

Did you know that Haiti has diplomatic relation with Taiwan? Chinese sending troops there probably has nothing to do with it, but it might becoming a bargaining chips later.

I am sure majority of officials in China doesn't want a war. But they are doing everything they can to take Taiwan into its fold using diplomatic, military, political and economical means. Their objective is to capture Taiwan, not to start WW3. But like you said, they will also start a war if it will lead to their goals. Therefore they aim missiles at Taiwan, refuse to negotiate with Taiwanese government, and threaten Taiwan at the same time they welcome Taiwanese investors.

I think most Taiwanese probably don't care if Chinese just using Taiwan as headlines. What they care about is probably the threats and their own safety.

EngineMan2145; these ones.

The people of China do not like the Communist ways; if they did, there wouldn't be protests over there over China.

Small scale anti-communist protests.
I've seen anti-democracy protests on a small scale as well.

And Taiwan is not a country that broke off from China that China hasn't had the ability to get back. The communists succeeded in winning China, and the democratic folk retreated to Taiwan. The Chinese government then claimed Taiwan as its own.

Honest Abe ring a bell?

You are right, the Chinese people themselves do want to just have a happy and peaceful existence, but the Chinese government, people aren't so sure of. The Chinese government has shown a history of willing to use military force to achieve its aims, no matter what.

Just like America, a lot of European Nations, et al.

Originally posted by LemonAide

There's somebody in the PLA who's looking further ahead. Anyway this is going off discussion so I'll stop.

[edit on 3-8-2005 by LemonAide]

I agree. Although this is off topic, but it might be worth discussing. Chinese seems to be concern about securing oil supply recently. They re-enforce their ties with Iran, and setup bases and friendly relation with nations along the oil sea lane from middle east to China.

Originally posted by twchang
Taiwan also send warship to cruise around a bit recently but that doesn't mean much. It is just an exercise for the navy and to visist friendly ports.

China wants Taiwan back. Yes. But not necessarily by fighting (unless somebody does something sneaky or stupid). The military buildup in China goes beyond Taiwan I think. Taiwan is a 20year(give or take) problem. The overall plan has a longer time frame. China is playing in a global arena now. It needs an armed forces to support its friends and fight its foes. That's what I mean by side show. Sorry if I've offended you.

Originally posted by EngineMan2145
The people of Taiwan do not want to become communist, I don't know what "polls" show that. And polls are not to be taken seriously anyhow. There are so many variables to making polls, you could write a book about them.

there are two main parties of taiwan. the KMT is a pro-china side and the other is the DDP which is pro-independence. the election was very close. something like 20,000 diference. the country is spilt about 50/50 on what it wants.

The people of China do not like the Communist ways; if they did, there wouldn't be protests over there over China. They like their new economic goodies and so forth.

what are they protesting againest? its not the party. what protest all over china. provide some links or something like that. dont just shoot your mouth

Taiwan has a military of very patriotic, very democratic people; Taiwan also has one of the largest Christian populations of many countries. They are not communist at all.

the military is a pro-KMT organisation.

taiwan has a very small christian population.

The Chinese government then claimed Taiwan as its own.

the communist claimed taiwan in 1946. well before the comunsit had the upper hand in the civil war.

The Chinese government has shown a history of willing to use military force to achieve its aims, no matter what.

same could be said for any country. america for one

No one has ever liked communism except those who command thep eople in it.

what about the eastern europeans and russians which throught that they were better under communism.

Originally posted by chinawhite

Originally posted by EngineMan2145
The people of Taiwan do not want to become communist, I don't know what "polls" show that. And polls are not to be taken seriously anyhow. There are so many variables to making polls, you could write a book about them.

there are two main parties of taiwan. the KMT is a pro-china side and the other is the DDP which is pro-independence. the election was very close. something like 20,000 diference. the country is spilt about 50/50 on what it wants.

So because 49.9 percent of the population voted for a party that is pro-mainland, China has the right to invade and force the 50.1% majority to submit to a system of government it abhors.

same could be said for any country. america for one

There's a small thing called Posse Comitatus. I'll let an American explain why that makes China and America different.

No one has ever liked communism except those who command thep eople in it.

what about the eastern europeans and russians which throught that they were better under communism.

Like all those Poles who were clamouring back in the early 80s for communism to remain their ideology and system of government. Or all those Czechs who saw they're democratically elected government destroyed by Stalin. Or all those Rumanians who were out in the streets protesting over the death of Caucescu? How about all the Bulgarians who voted for Tsar Simeon? Or the Germans who were dancing on the Berlin Wall, they obviously wished to remain communist.

Can China Invade Taiwan?

They're welcome to try!!
And who knows they may very well get away with it too!

sorryy just want to liven up this thread.. Must be the longest thread in ATS history right??

Daedalus3,

They're not going to try! China is just pissed off cause Taiwan isn't welcoming commie dictatorships with open arms.

The world is facing a revolution in military technologies. Only three nations are on the door way to the new age: The USA, Russia and China. With the inevitable dvelopment and deployment of lazer, microwave, electro-magnetic weapons in the three nations, China will have an equal footing with the US in any potential future conflicts.

Is China developing an equivalent of F-22, yes. But Stealth fighters considered one of secondary goals for China. Since China's new rader systems can detect and follow American stealth fighters, China will presume that the US will have no problems dealing with future Chinese stealth fighters.

China's laser weapon is 3-5 years ahead of the US by the most conservative estimates (Tests of shooting satelites and cruise-missle-type of flying targets have been conducted successfully). While the US is working on the Chemical Lazer system (so huge that needs a boeing jet to carry one unit), China has well tested the next-generation Phisical Laser(I don't know if I used the right termilologies here - English is not my mother tone) and its searching and targeting sub-system, and is working to miniaturize the system for the use on jet fighters and outer space platforms. China's second artilary (Strategic Rocket force) have deployed the first generation of laser weapons for theater defense.

The micowave weapon is used to fry living beings and electro-components from a long distance away. I know Both China and the USA are working on this, but don't know how much progresses they have made.

China is gulfing up news ideas and technologies in modernizing its military, but you don't see many new weapons deployed. Partly it's because of China's low-profile (deeply rooted in their blood and culture, they like being underestimated by others, it makes them feel secure?). They also refuse to overly stretch their economy by building overseas bases and throw out all the out-dated weapons. They are not particularly in a hurry to match their competitors present capability, that only make they always one step behind, instead they look one step ahead.

It's funny that China and the US could actually go into a conflict over Taiwan. China is too shy to inform the US in clear term that China welcome the US policing the whole world (minus Taiwan) for as long as they like. China is not particularly interested in becoming the leader of the world, nor the entry to the G9 (They simply can't shake off the trait of seclusionism of thousands of years). Oil supply could make China nervous in short-terms (China will adopting a new energy law early next year, which make civilian use of renewable energy - solar, wind, nucleur, tidal, terestrial, hydro more like mandatory). My first car could well be my last car, that's too bad! I couldn't get enough of driving. Wish they work out some affordable cars that run on baterries.

It's unlikely to see China wielding its power in middle east or else where for oil. You will see the whole world undergoing a thorough change ennergy wise in the next twenty years. China certainly wants to be on top of the tide, or ride the tide, not to be swept away.

China's worst days is behind them. Every Chinese feels they are carried by a momentom to a brighter future. Taiwan would be the last missing piece.

If the US dfend Taiwan by sending troops, China will take it as an invasion on Chinese territory and will go all-out to fight. The winner of the war will be Europe and Russia (not Japan). I wish the Chinese ministers made this clear at the Sino- American Strategical Dialogue that is being held in Beijing.

I appologize for my rambling, wish you are not bored. I just feel it's would be better to take these factors into account when discussing Taiwan issue, instead of just having our interests defined by communists or free world.

Puri

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV

So because 49.9 percent of the population voted for a party that is pro-mainland, China has the right to invade and force the 50.1% majority to submit to a system of government it abhors.

well wait till the next election then.

same could be said for any election. how about if bush was voted in with 50.1%. the other 49.9 that didn't vote for him would have him as president

There's a small thing called Posse Comitatus. I'll let an American explain why that makes China and America different.

it might be temporary but the government that is left is a american elected one. and will continue to be so until it is overthrown

Like all those Poles who were clamouring back in the early 80s for communism to remain their ideology and system of government. Or all those Czechs who saw they're democratically elected government destroyed by Stalin. Or all those Rumanians who were out in the streets protesting over the death of Caucescu? How about all the Bulgarians who voted for Tsar Simeon? Or the Germans who were dancing on the Berlin Wall, they obviously wished to remain communist.

i said some not all.

Originally posted by LemonAide

Originally posted by EngineMan2145
Invading Iraq and Afghanistan is completely different. Iraq and Afghanistan were not peaceful democratic nations that the U.S. claimed as its own.

As for military buildup, the U.S. must keep its military up to speed considering that the world would be a real $#*!box if the U.S. wasn't around with all the crap that would start. We also do it to protect our interests and our security.

And yes, I said the CURRENT U.S. military would win against the CURRENT Chinese military. The U.S. must continue to upgrade or the Chinese would catch up eventually.

The U.S. is also involved in many foreign affairs around the world. China isn't. There is no immediate need for them to build up their military. They are not being invaded by anyone and there is no immediate threat to them. The U.S. military respects China's territory. You do not see American subs popping up in Chinese waters and so forth. So for them to consider the U.S. a threat is rather silly, unless they are planning to take Taiwan militarily.

They are building up their naval power. What navy in the world is a threat to them? The United States? Only if they do something to provoke the U.S. into coming at them, which the U.S. has no interest in doing unless absolutely necessary.

Good. Now imagine you didn't just write that. Imagine you were governing China or some other country. Imagine, you don't know what the US's intentions are.

You've got a growing economy. A well educated population, culture, history, etc. Good economy. But there's also bad news. You've got internal problems. A few neighbours that don't like you. You've done a few things the US doesn't like (but also somethings that they do like of course). You're competing for the same resources with the US. And, if you play your cards right, you have potential to gain equal status along side the US in a few decades.

How would you respond to the words and changes quoted above? How would you govern? Would you consider yourself evil? Live and learn, dude.

Uh-huh. Yes, and they're also threatening to take back Taiwan via military force if necessary. And it isn't too hard to see what the U.S.'s intentions are when the U.S. military is kind of stretched right now. The U.S. has no interest in attacking China. If we did, it would have been done in the 1980s or early 1990s.

The only reason China's economy is growing is because they have adopted capitalistic ways after all these years because history has shown that pure communism for an economy doesn't work. It failed in the Soviet Union, it failed in North Korea, and it was not working in China at all.

China does not have a representative government as the United States and other countries do. What the world sees them as is a communist nation adopting capitalistic ways to grow its economy, and its military, which concerns other nations when looking at China's history.

They are a lot more than just some innocent nation trying to grow. Do not take the inability to project power as an indesire to do so. If their government is so innocent and working for the good of the people, then why is so much information restricted from the people? They are still communistic. Not as communist as they used to be, but still a good deal communist. You do not have the freedom there that you have here for many things.

I think you need to quit this so-called intellectualism you use and look at the real situation.

Originally posted by LemonAide
That's what I mean by side show. Sorry if I've offended you.

Haha...no offense taken. I for one wishes Taiwan is not part of the show. But Taiwan has to do what it must even if it is just a side show. Because if it doesn't, the effect of this side show can be devastating to Taiwan.

Originally posted by EngineMan2145
The only reason China's economy is growing is because they have adopted capitalistic ways after all these years because history has shown that pure communism for an economy doesn't work. It failed in the Soviet Union, it failed in North Korea, and it was not working in China at all.

China does not have a representative government as the United States and other countries do. What the world sees them as is a communist nation adopting capitalistic ways to grow its economy, and its military, which concerns other nations when looking at China's history.

They are a lot more than just some innocent nation trying to grow. Do not take the inability to project power as an indesire to do so. If their government is so innocent and working for the good of the people, then why is so much information restricted from the people? They are still communistic. Not as communist as they used to be, but still a good deal communist. You do not have the freedom there that you have here for many things.

Good observations! Now think about it. Why would the communist party allow the people to adopt capitalist ways? Look at Cuba, North Korea, Iran (sortof), etc. All repressive totalitarian governments with failing economies. The Chinese communist party is learning, evolving and willingly sacrificing many of its core beliefs (perhaps even leading to some form of democracy in the future) for the people of China. I can't think of any other government that has done that in all of history.

"Looking" at the real situation without intellectual critical thinking can never lead to understanding. Anybody can look, not everybody can think.

Originally posted by LemonAide
Good observations! Now think about it. Why would the communist party allow the people to adopt capitalist ways? Look at Cuba, North Korea, Iran (sortof), etc. All repressive totalitarian governments with failing economies. The Chinese communist party is learning, evolving and willingly sacrificing many of its core beliefs (perhaps even leading to some form of democracy in the future) for the people of China. I can't think of any other government that has done that in all of history.

"Looking" at the real situation without intellectual critical thinking can never lead to understanding. Anybody can look, not everybody can think.

China is learning and changing to capitalist ways because she knows that the only way to become a superpower is to have a strong economy and the only way to hurt the United States is beating her in her own game. Any military action aginist the US is fatal. infect it will make the US stronger.

Originally posted by ulshadow
China is learning and changing to capitalist ways because she knows that the only way to become a superpower is to have a strong economy and the only way to hurt the United States is beating her in her own game. Any military action aginist the US is fatal. infect it will make the US stronger.

Yes, superpower status is one of the goals of the Chinese people. The average Chinese person sees the 1.3billion population and goes "why can't I have wealth and influence across the globe"? Who are these Americans, with 1/4 of our population, who think they can boss everyone around?

It's a misconception that Communism equals closed society with no foreign trade. The result of the second world war, the Cold war and bad governments just made it seem that way. Deng did somethings right by opening up the country and putting it back on track.

A lot of the American reaction comes from insecurity and not wanting to share the world. That's bad government and will lead to a fight someday. Colin Powell said it best "China is just taking its rightful place amoungst the nations of the world."

China's never had a global influence, history will show us if the Chinese will do any better than all the rest. And with that, I think I've said all I want to say on the subject.