What does symbolism do to you?, page 8

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reply posted on 1-12-2010 @ 05:27 AM by mysticalzoe

reply to post by Misterlondon

I hate to be rude but why don't you look up the symbolism or try to find the true meaning yourself? Obviously that symbol was meant for you and you alone!! I was meditating once back in September of this year, and I saw a Jewish letter looked it up, and it was the Tau Cross, same cross Jesus was crucified on, and it has so many other meanings it blew my mind. You'll be surprised why you feel close to the symbol..look it up man.

reply posted on 1-12-2010 @ 05:58 AM by network dude

Originally posted by Majestic23

What do you think they are there for?

My guess is for recognition, or possibly somewhat conincidence. But as I said, I realy don't know.

They pissed me off since I found that my favourite childhood shows and games (video and board games, check out MB and the like) and films and and music is full of it. They formed my worldview.

I used to watch an American cartoon called GI JOE (I think a certain massive toy company owns this license). The tagline was "the real American Hero!". Well of course all young lads love to play army and fight etc... but get this......the bad guys were a group of mysterious terrorists who waged proxy wars from underground cave bases. They were called Cobra. It turns out it was full of symbolism and gives a clear referance to 9/11. Again a strong licence that hasnt waned with time and has had big Hollywood movies made (these companies very rarely go out of business).
Programming? I think so, in retrospect this becomes very clear. Not enough on its own though, but then I can do pretty much the same with all such media characters aimed at children in that era.

And some happen to believe 9/11 was a magical ritual, which is quite compelling because a hughe amount of media forshadows 9/11 also ( literally hundreds, maybe thousands). And the secret societies practice this type of magic. You would be foolish not to entertain the idea that 9/11 was some sort of attention grabbing ritual sacrifice.

So after that, nothing affected you personaly in any way other than now that you know they are there, it makes you angry. I think looking into Hasbro's storyline is looking for a nail while holding a hammer. Eventually you will find a nail. Ritual Sacrifice? I am probably the wrong guy to respond to that since I don't believe in magic.

But other than feelings, you haven't been affected that you know of by symbols in your youth.

I do agree that should there be an answer to this that falls on your side of the fence, it could open up pandoras box. In order for me to look for it, I would have to believe it first. So far, I am not convinced. but thanks for your input. I have learned a lot so far.

reply posted on 1-12-2010 @ 08:42 AM by Extant Taxon

Originally posted by Majestic23

Originally posted by Extant Taxon
I find that the laxity comes into play when a single take on the reason such potent esoteric symbolism features in the mainstream then becomes codified, letting no alternative perspective in. Not saying that this is so in your case, just within conspiracy circles in general.

No one thing in reality is on its own, everything is beautifully connected. This applies to the agenda well because they never have only one reason for the use of something, they never only have one method of reaching their goals. People who plot and scheme to this level nearly always get it right because they can extrapolate so well. Even so there are always variables that are a choas factor and painful to the r-complex. The web of illusion loves to distract us and keep our attention so it is all set up like that from genetics to schooling to entertainment and politics etc...However we are looking at a level of cohesion that outlives civilisations and in the end there must only be one truth so it is hardly surprising we see this "codification" in conspiracy circles.

Must there be only one truth? How would we know? Why should we think that anyone on the lower levels of the pyramid structure, if this is what it is, have the perspective or real knowledge to know what that "truth" is? The codification I refer to is perhaps more akin to dogma, where birds of a feather flock together in respect of a handy belief system.
The steadfast belief that many in the conspiracy community have as regards the truth implies that they already have it and presupposes the philosphical notion of universal truth, which slipslides into another quagmire of conspiracy culture, absolutism. The idea of conspiracy theory being, to many, not all, a type of secular religion is quite valid I feel.
The number of arguments of a metaphysical nature predicated on the conception, or lack thereof, of an absolute truth that I've seen on conspiracy message boards I can't keep track of.

I agree that the the modern rationalist materialist mindset is prone to sever relations holistically, to compartmentalise knowledge and understanding, to maintain the illusion that the science (that is, knowledge) of life can only be conducted piecemeal. I am, however, hopeful that the scientific community is becoming aware in some circles as to the wisdom to not segregate in this fashion, but to come to together.
I'm quite interested in the discipline of Biosemiotics, where there is a confluence of scientific disciplines in many different fields to approach a general, even unified, understanding of the living semiotics (semiotics, the study of signs) of the natural world. If you go to Alexei Sharov's Biosemiotics website you'll notice a familiar alchemical icon being discussed and why it is considered the symbol of the discipline.

As regards the potential agendas of any Powers That Be, I'm not sure that there is any singular, unified globe spanning one. I just see the old story of man exploiting man, conflict driven by the desire for power and profit, casual, callous evil winning over what should be our better natures, and I don't know if this is all the work of single eye atop the pyramid, if this is the metaphor we're using.

I'm open to possibilities, I just tend to more reductive answers on the availale evidence if I'm going to stick my neck out.
I'm not averse to wild speculation though, I'll link you something in one of my next replies here...

Originally posted by Majestic23

Originally posted by Extant Taxon

The reason I am highly suspicious of the idea you put forward is that it's so prevalent within the conspiracy community, particularly those fully involved in the Christian Right's battle aginst the occult/New Age/Gnosticism, and that it comes from a place that has (ironically) a strictly dualistic view. Black and white. Us and them. Polarised dilemmas that stultify more complex or less cosmic, more pragmatic, worldviews.

But what you say is proof of its effect. We the audience see the duality as thing to emulate, emulate our idols and their emotive "art" yet those who made the picture and understand it see it as a totally differant thing. They see duality for the quagmire that it is and instead of using their knowledge and considerable power to tell us the meanings directly and the mechanism by which they work they use it to toy with us morons who are paying 50 to take our kids to see some sh*t 3D high-def beam-o-vision pixar nonsense filled with symbolism that laughs in our ignorant faces. Letting their absurd ideas slowly trickle into our heads until we think that everything out of the ordinary is a fairytale and that if you look slightly middle eastern you should have a schimitar between your teeth and an AK in your hand.

The dialectic we both see is more unfortunately a tendency, and weakness, of the human perspective, and can be entrained to be the majority view, if we let it. Therefore the dialectic wranglings seen both in the MSM and within the conspiratainment industry are the antithesis to the approach that should be taken. The dualistic mindset that these conspiracy "researchers" I have mentioned promulgate is part of the very same complex as the corporations. That, in the end, they lead to the same place, using the same philosophy.
But I do see that there will be those with an understanding of the dualistic nature of human thought processes who can and will use that deliberately against others. And the reason they employ this? Maybe because they think dialectically themselves...
I'm just not sure there is a coherent monolothic global elite club where they all coordinate to the very same end, seamlessly. There's too much investing of an almost superhuman power bordering on godhood on some mythical elite inhabiting a Mount Olympus for my liking.
Conspiracy culture has just about become mythmongering for the power elite. It's all over ATS.

Originally posted by Majestic23

Religion is being liquidised and the war on altered states of consciousness is in full swing. Materialism is the new way, if symbols charged with spiritual power are degraded and changed to be resonant with money and base instincts then that makes a lot of sense in magical terms. It is like putting your goldfish's old castle in his new water tank. The magicians brings your attention to the tip of the wand and then points it in the direction he wants you to look. Transmutation of energy is as useful as gathering it and sometimes more convenient. Notice how most currency is a patchwork of sacred geometry?

To take the spiritual and muddy it with the ego is always a top priority.

In truth I cannot see the agenda allowing its symbols to be used in a way they did not approve of.

I can agree with much of this, in a metaphorical sense. The text I have emboldened I'm much less sure of. I see the denigration you refer to happening, but perhaps this is more the byproduct of the rationalist materialist mindset that has been part of the myth of the modern era, of progress since the Age of Reason. We seem to be caught up in a collective "dark night of the soul" as Jung would put it, where the purely reductive mindset denies the possibility of much that is unseen and unknown.
That there is even a single unified group with such an agenda that brooks no opposition is something I'm entirely unsure of.

Originally posted by Majestic23

Originally posted by Extant Taxon

The tool that symbolic language is is merely neutral, and the intent behind much of it may indeed be to dominate and control the world in a corporate sense, but those who employ it have no grand magickal grimoire to circumscribe the globe, square the circle, and seal it with a planet-wide sigil; they just have have a twenty year business plan, blue chip stocks, share forecasts, financial advisors, and the ability to cloak themselves with whatever meme will most likely become the norm.

But I think they do. I think the massive amount of media hinting at 9/11 and the concept that the towers were on a leyline and the tuning fork contruction and the ceremonies where people walk around and cause vortex energy. Think the Ka-bah at Mecca and the throngs of people who circle it and worship, this building is also on a powerful leyline (you can see this circling in the film Return to Oz and in the ceremonies following the disaster).

So attention, vibration, vortex energy, links to mystic societies, every news channel in the world watching, human sacrifice AND it was fortold in the media that the same people invented AND it as the catalyst for our current position.

That is something like the planet wide sigil you refer to I think.

I mentioned my tendency for liberal speculation earlier, so here's a link you may find interesting, from the ATS Skunkworks. A very early ATS thread of mine, a thought experiment (a shameless self bump):

9/11 - The American Continent as Monolithic Grimoire of the Cryptocracy

It's representative of a mindset I don't hold to any more, but I think it's an interesting myth.

Originally posted by Majestic23

It is paradigm crushing concepts, the answer to all questions, the truth about religion, it WILL change the world for the better. It is our one and timeless victory against the immortal enemies in the physical mental and spiritual dimensions. It is realisation after realisation and the ray of hope in the dark. It is endless possibilities. It is the third eye opening on a galaxian scale. It is our last chance and once you see the vastness you can never look back.

Yes, it is the greatest story ever told, it entertains me.

When was the last time X Factor sent you on a voyage of self discovery?

I like the fire of your mind's eye as expressed here.

I enjoy being conspiratained too, I'm on ATS aren't I?

But no, the X-Factor doesn't do any of those things. If I happen to be caught in the same room as that abomination I exit swiftly.

Originally posted by Majestic23
If there is only one person at the top of the pyramid there is only one person who needs to know the real meaning.

For sure.

If.

Originally posted by Majestic23

Originally posted by Extant Taxon

The other idea I would present, as a thought experiment, is that the base archetypes expressed through the use of symbolism, may be exercising power through the very people that employ them, who knows what may be acting on them in a metaphysical sense. Plato once said that men are toys in the hands of ideas (archetypes)....

Plato spent a lot of time in altered states of mind. Now it seems so did the people who currently comprise the agenda (shamanic bloodline familes, the magi) and probably always have did also. Hence why they know so much about the mechanics of reality. So my take on that is that a luciferic consciousness of some kind (maybe a perverse force of duality or gods, hilariosly names after astral bodies) is the evil idea in the hearts of men. Is it a conscious force? All I know is that the shamanic dynasties went into the astral planes and were transmitted or possessed with the knowledge of how to form civilisation with science and art and higher knowledge based on irrefutable laws of reality, magic (this is just a highly advanced form of naturalistic engineering) and symbolism (maybe the consciousness that taught the shaman created the reality we reside in, they certainly know a lot about it). Maybe these ideas are imbued with a consciousness all of their own.

If we take your reply here is a basic premise to explore then: what would be the consequence of those who apparently exercise power (through, using the example here, the use of "higher knowledge" gained from transcendent experience exercised via occult symbolism) being as much slaves to the power they exercise as those they apparently enslave? This elite are not free, they have to maintain their position because they fear the consequences of relinquishing this "control." Everything they have is based on fear, lies, perversions, hatred, and egomanical self-interest in that case, and are perhaps less free than those below them in this pyramid structure, because they have to constantly check their position, scramble their propaganda squadrons, marshall their forces, stymie rival elite predators after what is theirs, and maintain this system they claim to have built. But they then would have constructed their own prison in a way, and the pyramid structure is just a phantom, an illusion. They're stuck in here with the rest of us, where we are no more trapped than them.

But the so-called oppressed masses may be more free in a sense, as we can then see the illusion for what it is, and free our minds. The following quote from James Webb's superb book The Occult Underground explains this principle far more eloquently than me, through an analogy with the monad symbol:

'But in seeking the liberation of the individual through the destruction of social maya, the advocates of the new apocalypse appear to have made one signal error. In the original form, the idea of liberation is Gnostic in nature. That is to say, it is world-rejecting. At the center is the divine spark trapped in heavy matter. The situation could be described as a point enclosed within a circle. In the original idea, the circle is broken and the spark escapes through a different way of looking at the circle. This is what is meant by "revolution in consciousness." The trapped human executes some spiritual acrobatics and sees that he is not trapped after all - all the time the circle was broken, and indeed he may have created it himself. But this change in the relationship of the point (Man) and the circle (Matter) is achieved through operations taking place within the individual - within the point. The circle is illusion, nothing more. The theorists of social liberation are trying to produce the necessary changes in the point by manipulating the surrounding circle, the existence of which has traditionally been seen as the product of wrong being, of a wrongly perceived relationship of man and the universe.
The construction of a new social reality would seem to be, from the point of view of all systems of liberation, merely another articfact of illusion. On the other hand, the exponents of material reform proclaim that to concentrate on "spiritual" goals is to distract attention from goals that are realizable in the present. Both the spiritual aspirants and the social reformers seem to have admirable motives which it is not for this book to judge. But the application of of the spiritual theory to material ends must end in disaster. If it is the social system which prevents man from "experiencing liberation," the construction of a new social system - even the system which defines itself in opposition to to that which has previously existed - is merely to reforge the fetters which have been struck off.'

p. 479

It's all about perspective in a sense I think. I still have to remind myself of this, every day.

Originally posted by Majestic23

Originally posted by Extant Taxon
Who is in control? Is anyone? The latter question many conspiracy theorists fear more than anything I think.

Most likely there will be a cyclical nature to this "who is really in control idea". We born alone and we die alone, in then end there is only yourself to answer to.

My comment is related to my previous proposition, if we temporarily accept the premise in order to explore it. That the power elite are as much controlled by the system they built, where power works through them, they are conduits of power, not the exercisers of it. They then would have built their own gargantuan prison colony, where they have only worthless trinkets to show for their status.

Anyway, yes, enjoyable conversation.

reply posted on 1-12-2010 @ 11:24 AM by Extant Taxon

Originally posted by Majestic23
Plato spent a lot of time in altered states of mind.

Forgot to link this earlier, thought you may find it interesting:

Pharmakon - an interview with Dr. Michael Rinella

It's a podcast interview with the guy who wrote the following book I'd like to get hold of soon:

Pharmakon - Plato, Drug Culture, and Identity in Ancient Athens

Pharmakon traces the emergence of an ethical discourse in ancient Greece, one centered on states of psychological ecstasy. In the dialogues of Plato, philosophy is itself characterized as a pharmakon, one superior to a large number of rival occupations, each of which laid claim to their powers being derived from, connected with, or likened to, a pharmakon. Accessible yet erudite, Pharmakon is one of the most comprehensive examinations of the place of intoxicants in ancient thought yet written.

reply posted on 1-12-2010 @ 11:46 AM by DoubleNickels

Originally posted by mysticalzoe
reply to post by network dude

I believe that the symbolisms that you are referring to are for anyone who understand and know their meaning, and get it.

In other words, adepts signalling to the others where they are operating? A means of communication?

reply posted on 1-12-2010 @ 11:50 AM by King Seesar

reply to post by Extant Taxon

I mean you bring up some very good points i for one can't stand the concept of duality even tho there's many theories or if you will diffferent takes on the concept, also when talking about TPTB you hit a great point that is worth noting and that's the word "fear" and this does control them to a certin extent in that they fear losing there wealth.

Now do i think there's one group of individuals that have complete control of this world.... probably not, or not in the context one would think, i think there's a few groups with world control as there primary means and even if you were to believe every single word of Fritz Springmeier's book the 13 Illuminti bloodlines even he admits there's 13 families and you can bet that the 13 families all want the control them selfs if you believed his take on the situation, so no i think there's a few groups jockeying for the top spot and i'm sure some of them use similar methods to achieve this and i'm sure one group can spot the other in some cases but the power keeps moving and they keep trying to contain it.

But again you do bring up some very solid points.

edit on 1-12-2010 by King Seesar because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 1-12-2010 @ 01:13 PM by Extant Taxon

reply to post by King Seesar

Thanks.
Many of the points I bring up, especially the one concerning the idea that the power elite may be just as controlled by the system they created as anyone, is that it's a thought experiment to test the worldview many people hold to in the conspiracy community.

reply posted on 1-12-2010 @ 08:36 PM by vcwxvwligen

reply to post by ChaosMagician

If this was a sensitive topic, I offer my apologies.

I meant to say that they probably wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt that it was just a phase, and that you weren't on the road to becoming a life-long Satanist.

Drug use has traumatizing effects, and I suspect that this is why they are so closely associated with the occult. Older occultists use lures such as drugs, interpersonal issues, naive curiosity, etc. to sucker people into their network. They say things that make no logical sense and appeal to inadequacies like "adults drink coffee and talk about sex," or "the door is always open - you can count on us for anything."

It ends up being just a ruse to get kids to take drugs or participate in ceremonies. The kid plays along because he's not sure how the older person is benefiting is, so he convinces himself that it's some sort of selfless altruism. When you research occultism and symbols, you realize that it's not completely selfless after all.

I see this a lot with older women recruiting teenage girls and young women towards lesbianism. The usual cover story is that it's "girls having fun" or that females can be trusted not to act violently, especially towards each other. Reality, however, is much more complex.

reply posted on 1-12-2010 @ 08:43 PM by Majestic23

Originally posted by network dude
So after that, nothing affected you personaly in any way other than now that you know they are there, it makes you angry.

No Ssir. They formed how I thought. Think about it in terms of psychological conditioning in the magical aspect does not sit with you.

So lets go again. GI JOE I watched as a kid, there is no reason for symbology to be present but it is.

Now lets say I am watching this and seeing the propaganda play out infront of me, although I am not aware of it I am taking it in. Now link the underground bases terrorist vs good guy junk and lum it all together, lets say when I look at the Cobra symbol that acts as a point of association in my mind. Now when I am older and it is the year 2000 it is easy for me to get along with the idea of going to war with terrorists that dont even exist and when I see the Cobra symbol or something like it or George Bush reffers to Osama as a snake or something it acts as a cue or trigger for me to subconsciously remember my childlike belief system that was put upon me by early morning cartoons. And thus consciously I dont question the authoritah because I am subconsciously back in the childish mindframe and easy to program or reprogram.

As has been discussed there is no one use for this stuff. What if you are taken in as a child and made into a sleeper, then you read Catcher in the Rye the triggers make you want to go kill Lennon?

Is this type of thing impossible? Absolutely not. Was there an MKULTRA program, most likely? Where did the drive for such research come from? The secret societies who had been practicing it for years.

What if those hundreds of 9/11 before it happened instances in the media were to soften the absurdity when it did happen? What if it was our attention that made it so?

Originally posted by network dude
I think looking into Hasbro's storyline is looking for a nail while holding a hammer. Eventually you will find a nail.

Hey, if it werent so easy I wouldant do it. Seriously, Super Mario to Santa clause.

Originally posted by network dude
Ritual Sacrifice? I am probably the wrong guy to respond to that since I don't believe in magic.

Again our opinions dont matter. The people who run the world clearly believe in it. Think about it, why did all the older Gods ask for blood sacrifice, life force sacrifice? Their thirst was not sated hence WW2 and 9/11 and such. Ever hear those stories where battlegrounds would glow in the aftermath?

Originally posted by network dude
But other than feelings, you haven't been affected that you know of by symbols in your youth.

As described above yes they did change my worldview to a more sheepish one. Who knows how much that sets us back in terms of spiritual development. Also you are asking a question that I could never fully answer seen as they might still be working on me now, of course they only work because I cannot see the effect until it is too late.

Originally posted by network dude
I do agree that should there be an answer to this that falls on your side of the fence, it could open up pandoras box. In order for me to look for it, I would have to believe it first. So far, I am not convinced. but thanks for your input. I have learned a lot so far.

Whats so hard to believe. You know the symbols are there are they and have been for hundreds of years, the people that control the world use them not only in media but in every aspect of life. There must be something that keeps them in power and it is more than than a nudge and a wink. There must be some correlation between ancient geometry, higher knowledge and the thirst for power we can see it right infront and cant deny it now.

And what is magic? Its just science we have forgotten.

And yeah, this is the very subject that opens up Pandoras Box (Pan and music, what is that story telling us I wonder, even the word music is based on the word muse, the higher self, the point of inspiration) because it unravels the story and scale of the operation so quickly.

reply posted on 1-12-2010 @ 11:42 PM by vcwxvwligen

(double post)

edit on 1-12-2010 by vcwxvwligen because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 2-12-2010 @ 03:31 AM by pianopraze

Originally posted by Majestic23
Is this type of thing impossible? Absolutely not. Was there an MKULTRA program, most likely? Where did the drive for such research come from? The secret societies who had been practicing it for years.

If people on here have not researched Project Paperclip, MK-ULTRA, and Monarch programming they need to research it. This is documented history, not conspiracy. This is another way symbols affect us. Ideas are implanted then triggered with symbols, music, etc...

Originally posted by Majestic23
Again our opinions dont matter. The people who run the world clearly believe in it. Think about it, why did all the older Gods ask for blood sacrifice, life force sacrifice? Their thirst was not sated hence WW2 and 9/11 and such.

The Iraq War was a mega blood sacrifice. 5:50pm 555 days after 9/11 the war began on Ostara (old English Eostre) the Vernal (Spring) Equinox on the fullest ingress of Mars (god of war) for that year. 42 days later a 3:33pm EST May 1st, Belantane, Bush announced the end of the war.

Among the Wiccan Sabbats, Beltane is a cross-quarter day; it is celebrated in the northern hemisphere on 1 May and in the southern hemisphere on 1 November. Beltane follows Ostara and precedes Midsummer.

Teutonic goddess Eostre, whose name is probably yet another variant of Ishtar, Astare and Aset

Janet & Stewart Farrar, "Eight Sabbats for Witches," Phoenix Publishing, (1981), Page 14; Pages 72 to 79

Maybe you don't believe in ancient fertility blood sacrifices, astrology, and numerology but TPTB sure do!

Originally posted by Majestic23
sh*t 3D high-def beam-o-vision pixar nonsense

Best quote of the tread so far! *Star*

reply posted on 2-12-2010 @ 11:05 AM by King Seesar

reply to post by Majestic23

Great points about triggers and how they effect the subconscious mind heck even the conscious mind for that mater, i brought this story up on another thread but since were talking about triggers i think i should bring it up again anyway back in 2005 i ran across a document about music slaves and how they were programmed the thing went on to mention some of the triggers that were used in the process some of the triggers were the Wizard of Oz the word Doc and Darth Vadar as certin commands/triggers, the document went on to say that music slaves were taught that when they heard they were to be quote un quote "thrown from the freedom train" it meant they were to be killed alot of the programming was similar to those found in Project Monarch and echoed stuff that Cisco Wheeler and Fritz Springmeier wrote in there book The Illuminati Formula Used to Create an Undetectable Total Mind Controlled Slave, so yea triggers are for sure for real and can easily be used to further someones agenda....

The funny thing is when i went to post this document two days later it was gone like it never existed kinda makes you wonder....

reply posted on 2-12-2010 @ 03:14 PM by Majestic23

Originally posted by Extant Taxon
Must there be only one truth? How would we know?

Because we would not be looking for it were there not a nice concise answer that we could apply to actual gnosis somewhere down the line. If I were to simply think that all concepts are true or a few were then I would already have the answer would I not? I do not see our life experience to be something akin to a meditational question like "if a tree falls in the forest".

But yeah, you have a point, we cannot know at this point.

Originally posted by Extant Taxon
Why should we think that anyone on the lower levels of the pyramid structure, if this is what it is, have the perspective or real knowledge to know what that "truth" is?

I assume they have as much knowledge as it takes for them to accomplish the goals of the higher ups, from an average Joe perspective a few tidbits of ultra high knowledge would seem like a massive leap in learning and enough to make them believe just like the scientoligists have just enough advanced info to ensure their acolytes are devoted. I should explain that I believe a luciferic consciousness is "at the top" so it is more like a force of nature that organises this than a group of regular higher ups.

Plus you know they are straight moronic cus they test things with no regard for the safety of the planet or even themselves sometimes.

Originally posted by Extant Taxon
The codification I refer to is perhaps more akin to dogma, where birds of a feather flock together in respect of a handy belief system.
The steadfast belief that many in the conspiracy community have as regards the truth implies that they already have it and presupposes the philosphical notion of universal truth, which slipslides into another quagmire of conspiracy culture, absolutism. The idea of conspiracy theory being, to many, not all, a type of secular religion is quite valid I feel.

Just like with the pyramid of control there is a pecking order for belief systems. Highly manipulated religions are not favoured by those in the know or of late stage incarnations, they will move through New Age and Pagan ideas etc... and eventually highly technical belief systems that blur science and religion AND real life experience with inspiration until they get to pure truth (IE the actual way things are). I concur in that conspiracy theory is somewhere on that line and like all religions can lead to enlightenment or entanglement.

Originally posted by Extant Taxon
The number of arguments of a metaphysical nature predicated on the conception, or lack thereof, of an absolute truth that I've seen on conspiracy message boards I can't keep track of.

True, but this may just be a symptom of "trying to find our feet". Plus our egos want us to be the chosen one, We have to get over this.

Originally posted by Extant Taxon
I agree that the the modern rationalist materialist mindset is prone to sever relations holistically, to compartmentalise knowledge and understanding, to maintain the illusion that the science (that is, knowledge) of life can only be conducted piecemeal. I am, however, hopeful that the scientific community is becoming aware in some circles as to the wisdom to not segregate in this fashion, but to come to together.

Lets hope they get their sh*t together fast. The problem I see is academic left brained people who can actually hadle the data are prone to compartmentalisation and the right brained arty types can see the bigger picture but cant explain it or do anything practical with it. Duality strikes again.

Originally posted by Extant Taxon
Iam quite interested in the discipline of Biosemiotics, where there is a confluence of scientific disciplines in many different fields to approach a general, even unified, understanding of the living semiotics (semiotics, the study of signs) of the natural world. If you go to Alexei Sharov's Biosemiotics website you'll notice a familiar alchemical icon being discussed and why it is considered the symbol of the discipline.

If materialism and spiritualism do eventually get along it will be because of movements like this. I feel it makes sense that the link between aging and genetics will be a flashpoint that brings the two together in the public eye.

Originally posted by Extant Taxon
As regards the potential agendas of any Powers That Be, I'm not sure that there is any singular, unified globe spanning one. I just see the old story of man exploiting man, conflict driven by the desire for power and profit, casual, callous evil winning over what should be our better natures, and I don't know if this is all the work of single eye atop the pyramid, if this is the metaphor we're using.

The metaphor is for illumination and knowledge. The Masons tell us the eye symbol is good but it feels so bad. People are going to grow weary of the abyss looking back at them.

Maybe it is all just the delusions of man but I cannot accept it because I am one, I know the capabilities and limitations. Humanity has done some amazing things but keeping a conspiracy going for this this long at this level of complexity? Somehow still reaching goals despite the very fact that the organisational structure requires infighting and power play?

Originally posted by Extant Taxon
I'm open to possibilities, I just tend to more reductive answers on the availale evidence if I'm going to stick my neck out.
I'm not averse to wild speculation though, I'll link you something in one of my next replies here...

Probably sensible but I feel the truth really is stranger than fiction.

Originally posted by Extant Taxon
The dialectic we both see is more unfortunately a tendency, and weakness, of the human perspective, and can be entrained to be the majority view, if we let it. Therefore the dialectic wranglings seen both in the MSM and within the conspiratainment industry are the antithesis to the approach that should be taken.

If we wish to understand people who play with duality like and artist does the paintbrush then we must appreciate this point wholesale.

Originally posted by Extant Taxon
The dualistic mindset that these conspiracy "researchers" I have mentioned promulgate is part of the very same complex as the corporations. That, in the end, they lead to the same place, using the same philosophy.
But I do see that there will be those with an understanding of the dualistic nature of human thought processes who can and will use that deliberately against others. And the reason they employ this? Maybe because they think dialectically themselves...

Yeah this could be the case. Although I still feel they are beyond the ideas of Crowley and the Aghori tribesmen in the "do what thou wilt" sense. But no they still reside on this reality so they must be subject to its rules in some way or another. I mean, clearly most are still ego driven.

Originally posted by Extant Taxon
I mentioned my tendency for liberal speculation earlier, so here's a link you may find interesting, from the ATS Skunkworks. A very early ATS thread of mine, a thought experiment (a shameless self bump):

9/11 - The American Continent as Monolithic Grimoire of the Cryptocracy

It's representative of a mindset I don't hold to any more, but I think it's an interesting myth.

Why do you no longer adhere to this?

Originally posted by Extant Taxon
If we take your reply here is a basic premise to explore then: what would be the consequence of those who apparently exercise power (through, using the example here, the use of "higher knowledge" gained from transcendent experience exercised via occult symbolism) being as much slaves to the power they exercise as those they apparently enslave?.....................
................It's all about perspective in a sense I think. I still have to remind myself of this, every day.

My comment is related to my previous proposition, if we temporarily accept the premise in order to explore it. That the power elite are as much controlled by the system they built, where power works through them, they are conduits of power, not the exercisers of it. They then would have built their own gargantuan prison colony, where they have only worthless trinkets to show for their status.

Yes this seems to be the case. Gods have often betrayed men and so have ideas there is no reason to suspect any r-consciousness would not pull this type of trick. Or perhaps that consciousness itself is game obsessed (although not a game as such, they would appear to take it very ssseriously). The conduit idea makes a lot of sense in terms of their obsession with genetics and bloodlines.

reply posted on 2-12-2010 @ 05:20 PM by Majestic23

Originally posted by pianopraze
If people on here have not researched Project Paperclip, MK-ULTRA, and Monarch programming they need to research it. This is documented history, not conspiracy. This is another way symbols affect us. Ideas are implanted then triggered with symbols, music, etc...

Yeah, it is sort of a subject we hear in passing but there arent many who go to great depth and flesh it out. Sure there is misinformation but again I think its a subject that sort of lets us unravel the inner working.

Originally posted by pianopraze
The Iraq War was a mega blood sacrifice. 5:50pm 555 days after 9/11 the war began on Ostara (old English Eostre) the Vernal (Spring) Equinox on the fullest ingress of Mars (god of war) for that year. 42 days later a 3:33pm EST May 1st, Belantane, Bush announced the end of the war.

And I often hear the figure 555 billion dollars spent aswell. Yes, aside from the power play it seems like ritual and destruction of ancient history were goals. Good linking Praze.

Originally posted by pianopraze
Teutonic goddess Eostre, whose name is probably yet another variant of Ishtar, Astare and Aset

I havent looked into Eostre very much but it makes sense it describes the Isis/Ishtar character.

reply posted on 2-12-2010 @ 06:05 PM by Extant Taxon

Originally posted by Majestic23

Originally posted by Extant Taxon
Must there be only one truth? How would we know?

Because we would not be looking for it were there not a nice concise answer that we could apply to actual gnosis somewhere down the line. If I were to simply think that all concepts are true or a few were then I would already have the answer would I not? I do not see our life experience to be something akin to a meditational question like "if a tree falls in the forest".

But yeah, you have a point, we cannot know at this point.

O.K. I'm not really along time lines of a Zen questioning of reality exactly, but more the philosophical tendency of questioning anwers, instead of asking questions. I'm tending toward this a lot on ATS these days.

Originally posted by Majestic23
I assume they have as much knowledge as it takes for them to accomplish the goals of the higher ups, from an average Joe perspective a few tidbits of ultra high knowledge would seem like a massive leap in learning and enough to make them believe just like the scientoligists have just enough advanced info to ensure their acolytes are devoted. I should explain that I believe a luciferic consciousness is "at the top" so it is more like a force of nature that organises this than a group of regular higher ups.

Plus you know they are straight moronic cus they test things with no regard for the safety of the planet or even themselves sometimes.

The idea of some kind of primal force of the type you describe is one I toyed with for a while. Wouldn't use the word Lucifierian however.

"Straight moronic" elites?

They sure damn well seem that way at times. You know that when the first Manhattan Project A-Bomb tests were conducted there were strong admonitions from certain scientists that there was a possibility that the atmosphere could be ignited, the sky could become a massive fireball, horizon to horizon, maybe even an entire hemsiphere (if I remember correctly) as a result of the explosion? The generals in charge deemed the risk "acceptable" I think....

Originally posted by Majestic23
Just like with the pyramid of control there is a pecking order for belief systems. Highly manipulated religions are not favoured by those in the know or of late stage incarnations, they will move through New Age and Pagan ideas etc... and eventually highly technical belief systems that blur science and religion AND real life experience with inspiration until they get to pure truth (IE the actual way things are). I concur in that conspiracy theory is somewhere on that line and like all religions can lead to enlightenment or entanglement.

"Enlightenment or entanglement." Nice.

I feel entangled most days...

Originally posted by Majestic23

True, but this may just be a symptom of "trying to find our feet". Plus our egos want us to be the chosen one, We have to get over this.

Yes, true. I still labour under an inflated ego often enough.

Originally posted by Majestic23

Lets hope they get their sh*t together fast. The problem I see is academic left brained people who can actually hadle the data are prone to compartmentalisation and the right brained arty types can see the bigger picture but cant explain it or do anything practical with it. Duality strikes again.

Yes. I hope that there is a true meeting of minds in the near future. Academia has become so much of a secular priesthood in so many ways that it's nigh on impossible for fresh, out-of-the-box perspectives to break through. The saving grace may actually be the very basis of the rationalist materialist mindset if it is allowed to follow its true course, the spirit of open enquiry and the equitable use of the scientific method, minus the reactionary mindsets of certain scientists and academics.

Originally posted by Majestic23

Originally posted by Extant Taxon
Iam quite interested in the discipline of Biosemiotics, where there is a confluence of scientific disciplines in many different fields to approach a general, even unified, understanding of the living semiotics (semiotics, the study of signs) of the natural world. If you go to Alexei Sharov's Biosemiotics website you'll notice a familiar alchemical icon being discussed and why it is considered the symbol of the discipline.

If materialism and spiritualism do eventually get along it will be because of movements like this. I feel it makes sense that the link between aging and genetics will be a flashpoint that brings the two together in the public eye.

There is damn interesting work going in that field, for sure. Hard to get a grip on some of their research though, with all the jargon and papers intended for the "initiate" only. What I can obtain and understand is quite mind blowing.

Originally posted by Majestic23
The metaphor is for illumination and knowledge. The Masons tell us the eye symbol is good but it feels so bad. People are going to grow weary of the abyss looking back at them.

Maybe it is all just the delusions of man but I cannot accept it because I am one, I know the capabilities and limitations. Humanity has done some amazing things but keeping a conspiracy going for this this long at this level of complexity? Somehow still reaching goals despite the very fact that the organisational structure requires infighting and power play?

I was more referring to the oft-referred to so-called "NWO pyramid" with the eye atop it, specifically as regards the idea of a global penal colony constructed by the power elite that is predominant in conspiracy culture. Of course it's a metaphor for what you say, and in this case symbolises the attainment of such by those elites.

The problem is that I've never felt anything negative as regards such symbolism, they're all just neutral tools to me. There are many, many other things in the MSM that impact me far more (disgusting levels of uber-violence that is called entertainment, crass ego-driven self-interest promotion of base instincts, grossly materialist "values," "lolspeak," the drive towards a Huxleyan/Orwellian hybrid mono-culture, etc) and I guess someone could argue, and do, that such iconography is part of the very same complex, but I've never experienced any evil intent from a symbol alone.

Your other remark about the agenda possibly being advanced, by default, through systemic-wide group infighting and power-plays is one I think myself, from time to time. Kind of reminds me of what Hegel is supposed to have really meant by the "thesis + synthesis = antithesis" philosophy of history idea: not that man actively utilises a dialectical approach in putting man against man, philosophy opposing philosophy, west against east, etc, etc, to advance a conspiracy, but that a metaphysical tendency in the globe as a whole, in society, in history as an entity, drives man against man and the dialectical progression occurs.

Who knows?

Originally posted by Majestic23

Originally posted by Extant Taxon
I mentioned my tendency for liberal speculation earlier, so here's a link you may find interesting, from the ATS Skunkworks. A very early ATS thread of mine, a thought experiment (a shameless self bump):

9/11 - The American Continent as Monolithic Grimoire of the Cryptocracy

It's representative of a mindset I don't hold to any more, but I think it's an interesting myth.

Why do you no longer adhere to this?

It's more the means, methods, and certain subject matters there I don't hold to any more. The synchromystic approach, the work of Michael A. Hoffman II, loose, subjective "evidence" gathering, etc, that thread was me conspirataining myself to death...

These days I'm kind of following the thread of a swooning tendency in Western culture to be trapped in a Judaeo-Christian apocalyptic/millenarian "end of days" death urge scenario (think of the collective imagination of the West as dreaming a monolithic collective "leammings heading to the edge of the cliff" nightmare, where the true tragedy is that they never get there...), the nascent corporate fascist global superstate as a self-sustaining organism, conspiratainment is new matrix for those "waking up," conspiracy theory is a secular heresy opposing the rationalist materialist scientific establishment orthodoxy; and this is merely the continuation of a dialectic tendency most easily recognised in early Pauline Christianity's battle with the various Gnostic schools, and some other stuff.

That's kind of where my heads at now, investigation and research wise.