What does symbolism do to you?

reply to post by Khaaaaaan!!


666= Satan

reply to post by Doujutsu


good eye,

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/57608897df4c.jpg[/atsimg]

I don't know why they do this. Maybe it is the "in" thing to do now in the media. It is not everywhere...............yet.

But there is a lot of it out there. and for what?!!!

Originally posted by Khaaaaaan!!
and for what?!!!

exactly!!!!

but I don't see how you would look at that logo and pick 666 which of coarse means Satan out of it unless you were looking for that in the first place.

Originally posted by pianopraze

If you have read my posts you know I'm far past simple black and white Christian outlook.

Your worldview and argument thus far belies this.

Originally posted by pianopraze

The same corporations that make the bombs own the media. Look it up. They indoctrinate us to hatred in the media, desensitize us to violence, and ship us off to war while propagandizing us via all the news outlets that this is ok and the way it should be.

It's all the same system in the end, yes. But the point I wanted to try to make is not the one you're attacking. I'll try to explain this better in the replies to follow.

Originally posted by pianopraze

Doesn't matter which religion you belong to it should be easy to see this is crap. This is brainwashing on a massive scale. I think those that are perpetuating their lie are delusional. So yes, your post is full of cognitive dissonance when you say "It's ok, they are just corporations doing what corporations so they are not controlling you" just after you say they do control you through the media

Your paraphrasing of my comments is loose and erroneous. I think you perhaps didn't understand what I was trying to say. Or I didn't explain myself adequately. I'll try again.

You quoted me:

may indeed be to dominate and control the world in a corporate sense

vs.

they just have have a twenty year business plan

The full quote of mine is this:

Originally posted by Extant Taxon

The key to my notion that many personnel within the music industry, especially, are using such themes in a highly cynical, denigrated fashion is evidenced by the very same. That they devalue such potent iconography, denigrate it, and make it tawdry, ego-driven,superficial, and corporatised. It morphs from a primal code that speaks to the unconscious mind in ways ineffable and slides into being just another way of representing greed and rampant corporate excess.

The tool that symbolic language is is merely neutral, and the intent behind much of it may indeed be to dominate and control the world in a corporate sense, but those who employ it have no grand magickal grimoire to circumscribe the globe, square the circle, and seal it with a planet-wide sigil; they just have have a twenty year business plan, blue chip stocks, share forecasts, financial advisors, and the ability to cloak themselves with whatever meme will most likely become the norm.

What I was trying to express is that the use of occult and sacred symbolism by the corporate beast is a devaluation of their fundamental values. And that they are not being employed by some grand wizard with an ancient grimoire with a view to the dominating the world in a grand cosmic scheme with metaphysical overtones, the war between God and Satan, which biblical literalists such as the site you linked to hold to.

I'm saying there that conspiracy theory has gone mainstream, that conspiratainment thing, and ruthless business execs that only want to sell you more worthless s**t utilise any meme that has potential. The occult cosmic conspiracy against God by the Satanic Freemasons is the latest cynical, purely earthly, materialist scheme to that end.

The end result is basically the same as the cosmic conspiracy theorists fear, minus the metaphysics. The world becomes corporatised by purely mundane forces, humanity itself.

You quoted me:

The tool that symbolic language is is merely neutral

vs.

The other idea I would present, as a thought experiment, is that the base archetypes expressed through the use of symbolism, may be exercising power through the very people that employ them, who knows what may be acting on them in a metaphysical sense. Plato once said that men are toys in the hands of ideas (archetypes)....

It's only cognitve dissonance (in the sense you use here) if I believe these things simultaneously, not propose one thought experiment style style to spark debate. Which has worked. I was establishing an alternative premise (similar to the way the the simulation argument is a philosophical platform to discuss the idea of free will) to discuss how possibly even those who are seen to have control over others through the use of symbolism may be beholden to it at the same time, intending to get into a discussion with those who see a spiritual dimension to the conspiracy they believe in, also falling back to debate on the notion of free will. The intention of a thought experiment is to test the parameters of a principle. In this case, is there a spiritual dimension to this idea of the conspiracy?

This was my intention.

Originally posted by pianopraze
“Cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling caused by holding two contradictory ideas simultaneously. The theory of cognitive dissonance proposes that people have a motivational drive to reduce dissonance by changing their attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors, or by justifying or rationalizing them. In 1957, Leon Festinger published his theory of cognitive dissonance, which has changed the way psychologists look at decision-making and behavior. It is one of the most influential and extensively studied theories in social psychology.

Cognitive dissonance occurs when a person perceives a logical inconsistency in his beliefs, when one idea implies the opposite of another. The dissonance might be experienced as guilt, anger, frustration, or embarrassment.” source

The problem with the interpretation of cognitive dissonance used in conspiracy circles is that it's a chiefly a slur and character attack favoured in the more a reactionary fashion to label someone an "unbeliever" of sorts, or a heretic, if their beliefs aren't in line with dogma. Make it seem that the person labelled so is moribund and tormented. It greatly simplifies and denigrates the concept, which is perhaps better served by the example in the following link:

www.learningandteaching.info...

Cognitive dissonance is a psychological phenomenon which refers to the discomfort felt at a discrepancy between what you already know or believe, and new information or interpretation. It therefore occurs when there is a need to accommodate new ideas, and it may be necessary for it to develop so that we become "open" to them. Neighbour (1992) makes the generation of appropriate dissonance into a major feature of tutorial (and other) teaching: he shows how to drive this kind of intellectual wedge between learners' current beliefs and "reality".

The idea is that it is more a way of dialectical progression, an evolution in consciousness, in psychogical terms. Dissonaance occurs in many forms, it can be a learning tool. You may even be experiencing dissonance in response to the ideas I presented, and thus have felt some discomfort. I don't know, perhaps I shouldn'r presume to know exactly what the other person is thinking, or feeling. You seem much better at that than me.

Originally posted by pianopraze

In this case perhaps "Ignorance is strength" is more appropriate.

reply to post by network dude


When I saw it and my "eyes" opened I freaked. It was the 1st one.

and yeah, I look for them all the time now.

reply to post by network dude


Through psychology and the manipulation of symbology which speak on the gestalt level of our subconscious. The things I've written are backed up by the highest of sources. Much of what I am postulating comes from Jung:

“My thesis, then, is as follows: In addition to our immediate consciousness, which is of a thoroughly personal nature and which we believe to be the only empirical psyche (even if we tack on the personal unconscious as an appendix), there exists a second psychic system of a collective, universal, and impersonal nature which is identical in all individuals. This collective unconscious does not develop individually but is inherited. It consists of pre-existent forms, the archetypes, which can only become conscious secondarily and which give definite form to certain psychic contents.”
- Carl Jung, The Concept of the Collective Unconscious

The collective unconscious transpires through the existence of similar symbols and mythological figures in different civilizations. Archetypal symbols seem to be embedded in our collective subconscious, and, when exposed to them, we demonstrate natural attraction and fascination. Occult symbols can therefore exert a great impact on people, even if many individuals were never personally introduced to the symbol’s esoteric meaning. Mass media thinkers, such as Edward D. Bernays, found in this concept a great way to manipulate the public’s personal and collective unconscious.

Edward Bernays said that the herds of people needed to be controlled through media and the manipulation of these subconscious gestalts. Here, in a direct quote, he says the masses are controlled through an "invisible government which is the true ruling power":

“The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country.

We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of. This is a logical result of the way in which our democratic society is organized. Vast numbers of human beings must cooperate in this manner if they are to live together as a smoothly functioning society.

Our invisible governors are, in many cases, unaware of the identity of their fellow members in the inner cabinet.”
- Edward Bernays, Propaganda

source

If this does not spell it out clearly enough for a child I do not know what will!

Edward Bernays was named one of the 100 most influential Americans of the 20th century by Life magazine. He is the father of PR and modern advertising media.

reply to post by Extant Taxon


Your arguments create cognitive dissonance. I directly demonstrated the dissonant ideas you espoused.

At this point I will rest, as the arguments have become circuitous in nature.

/respect to all

/end my part of the debates

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by vcwxvwligen

 

I have yet to have a zombie come to me and ask for a petition. Now if I could program people to want to buy me a beer when I say a certain catch phrase, that would be a useful tool.

I assume this is "the beer angle", as opposed to the deer sign angle..

I would have went with the girl's phone number angle, myself.

The Carl Jung but is interesting, but I honestly can not find it in me to see any truth to it. I think it's a really great theory, but like I said to you in U2U's the golden ratio being found in credit cards, ipods, wide screen TVs, and cereal boxes is done because it's attractive to the human eye, so maybe there is something to it. This is why I find it interesting, but I honestly can't say that any particular logo or symbol has spark specific thoughts or ideas in my mind.

Like was said a while back, if you dont know the meaning intended behind it, I dont see how you can possibly contribute to an idea or thought unless you are taught the meaning. I do graphic design and have experience in building logos and incorporating the ideas and feelings of customers into the logos. I have thought about the whole "everybody uses the eye in a triangle in their logos" idea quite a bit, cuz they really do, but the few times I've run into anything explaining the creation of a logo, it was either with other intent than that, or, it was something created by a graphic designer and the company just dug the design and went with it. I dont think its as deep and mind controlling as some people think. In some cases, I imagine it is, but in most, I believe that to be the case.

The second bit, by the most influential guy, I think that is a whole lot of common sense to anyone with any scrap of leadership in his being. I dont see anything nefarious about it. For people to successfully work together, they need a common interest big enough to overcome their individual differences. Thats seriously just common sense thinking.

Originally posted by pianopraze
reply to post by Extant Taxon

 

Your arguments create cognitive dissonance. I directly demonstrated the dissonant ideas you espoused.

At this point I will rest, as the arguments have become circuitous in nature.

/respect to all

/end my part of the debates

Respect to you, but I'd say you have a fear of ideas, if they're different than yours.

Ah well. Que sera, sera.

And to address some other things in the topic, things like Jay Z, Pink, Rhianna all having esoteric symbolism in their videos and shows, and square and compasses and eyes in the triangle in movies... That stuff, in case nobody has caught on, is hot right now and the media takes advantage of anything that is popular in order to draw attention, sell products and gain followers.

I wouldn't be so quick to think its a conspiracy when it comes to something like Pink or Jay Z having this symbolism in their videos and merchandise. It does however spark up a huge amount of debate on sites like this and other sites as well and the internet is pretty popular right now and people searching for Google and Twitter for "Jay Z Illuminati Freemason" leads to popularity when you get done with the whole system that that kicks off. It's just marketing.

But this I believe kind of ends up being a gray area where some see magic and mind control while the other sees marketing and money. Where is the evil behind it one way or another?

Originally posted by network dude

as I said, I agree that they exist. I don't know why there are there.

What do you think they are there for?

Originally posted by network dude
But how have the affected you?

They pissed me off since I found that my favourite childhood shows and games (video and board games, check out MB and the like) and films and and music is full of it. They formed my worldview.

Originally posted by network dude
What do they do to other people? What about the billions of other people? Does it make them submissive to the Illuminati?

Clearly that is the case.

Originally posted by network dude
Does it make them passive and not question authority?

I used to watch an American cartoon called GI JOE (I think a certain massive toy company owns this license). The tagline was "the real American Hero!". Well of course all young lads love to play army and fight etc... but get this......the bad guys were a group of mysterious terrorists who waged proxy wars from underground cave bases. They were called Cobra. It turns out it was full of symbolism and gives a clear referance to 9/11. Again a strong licence that hasnt waned with time and has had big Hollywood movies made (these companies very rarely go out of business).

Programming? I think so, in retrospect this becomes very clear. Not enough on its own though, but then I can do pretty much the same with all such media characters aimed at children in that era.

And some happen to believe 9/11 was a magical ritual, which is quite compelling because a hughe amount of media forshadows 9/11 also ( literally hundreds, maybe thousands). And the secret societies practice this type of magic. You would be foolish not to entertain the idea that 9/11 was some sort of attention grabbing ritual sacrifice.

Originally posted by network dude
If so, how is it that this site is full of people who aren't passive and do question authority? These people have seen the symbols as well.

Because the soul seeks truth and we may be at a part of the cycle where we choose to look at this art of life. Take the internet for example, maybe a massive mistak for the agenda because even though it leeches time and energy it gives us an idea of what it is like to have instant information and communication.

Perhaps it is like that with the sigils?

Originally posted by network dude
I am intrigued by the interest in these things. I would like to know why people fear them.

They may be the key to unlocking the whole game so bring a lot of fears about the unkown and the total mindbender that is the awakening process. Also they target children so it is reasonable to be concearned,

Originally posted by DoubleNickels
Have you ever read Grant Morrison's essays on corporate logos and sigil magick? He discussed the connections between the two and it turns out that they're not all that different.

Very interesting. Many thanks.

Originally posted by DoubleNickels
I'd also like to point out that this essay implies that one can practice sigil magick without realizing it. Symbols crop up everywhere one looks because they're the fundamental unit of transmitting information. Belief implies attention; as the adage has it "Energy flows where attention goes." Thus, if enough people focus their attention for a wihle on someone's symbol (say, when picking out clothing), a little energy transmitted by a few thousand people at a time adds up... we call it magick, they call it marketing, some other group calls it set dressing.

It is hard to find an industry that does not have a few leading lights who are practicing this. So who is generating all those designs and such? Because when that Pepsi .pdf turned up nobody in the markting world knew what was going on.

It seems science is heading the way of explaining this link between consciousness and energy (there must be something too it, seen as nearly all cultures are steeped in the same themes). I think that seen as we have started linking Saturn (satan) with its strange geometric formations and thus the idea of a hex(agon) and seeing the links being played out "as above so below" style the further we progress the more reasonable it becomes to believe that shapes have power and so on that works at every level of creation and consciousness.

Originally posted by JoshNorton
reply to post by pianopraze

 

Well, I hardly want to get into a debate on the mechanics of sigil magick, but my interpretation (of Morrison, Hine, Dunn and others) is that the sigil only has power to the person who created it, with his intent. I could draw a sigil and show it to you, but no matter how many thousands of people might look at it, the sigil only works for me, because I was the one who said "I'm drawing X to mean Y". The connection between the drawing and the will is personal and conscientious. A sigil can't have a subconscious affect on anyone, and it can't do anything to or for someone who doesn't attach a personal meaning to it.

Not necessarily. Sigils don't have to be shown to someone they're keyed to. In fact, a common method of 'firing' them is to destroy them somehow. Burning them is popular. Sigils focus one's Will toward the end of bringing about a particular change (usually external and objective). Also, the meaning of a sigil doesn't have to be known to anyone, including the person who developed it. Some chaotes use automatic drawing or channeling techniques to build up a stack of sigils, pick one at random, and it seems to do whatever they want (I never had much success with this tactic). Some of the 'firing' methods cause the person who developed it to forget its meaning entirely (strangely, I find this happens pretty often unless I document what a sigil is supposed to do beforehand). It's also possible to design a sigil to draw a bit of energy off of whomever glances at it and charge it up just a little bit (kind of like timing how you hit a bicycle wheel to make it go faster and faster). It's tricky but if you've got a good personal theory of how to do it and encode it into the sigil, it can be done. Or you could work the whole "you desire this" angle to do the same thing (which is how advertising sigils might work; not my field).

But for me, it takes on a more personal meaning... when I think about it, I think about how I tend to over-extend myself... work, school, lodge, family, and other obligations, and that it takes a concerted effort on my part to find a balance between them.

Excellent. You are putting in the time and effort to go deeper than what you are told. In so doing, you change yourself (hopefully for the better, but one never knows what people are into these days...)

Originally posted by network dude
someone else explained exacty

how

theyare controlling the populace. You can even

Or clarify, if there is a lexical problem making things difficult. Is anyone else here making a distinction between 'control' and 'influence' as active concepts?

Originally posted by Majestic23
It is hard to find an industry that does not have a few leading lights who are practicing this. So who is generating all those designs and such? Because when that Pepsi .pdf turned up nobody in the markting world knew what was going on.

A lot of magickians tend to be artistic types. If they're not before they started practicing, it tends to awaken to some degree after you've been practicing for a while (and probably set your hair on fire a few times (metaphorically speaking)). Advertising design involves a certain amount of artistic ability. So... statistically speaking, a few magickians probably work in the field of advertising.

It seems science is heading the way of explaining this link between consciousness and energy (there must be something too it, seen as nearly all cultures are steeped in the same themes). I think that seen as we have started linking Saturn (satan) with its strange geometric formations and thus the idea of a hex(agon) and seeing the links being played out "as above so below" style the further we progress the more reasonable it becomes to believe that shapes have power and so on that works at every level of creation and consciousness.

I think they'll get it in another century or so, once the "all materialism, all reductionism, all the time" folks retire and eventually die off.

Originally posted by Extant Taxon
I find that the laxity comes into play when a single take on the reason such potent esoteric symbolism features in the mainstream then becomes codified, letting no alternative perspective in. Not saying that this is so in your case, just within conspiracy circles in general.

No one thing in reality is on its own, everything is beautifully connected. This applies to the agenda well because they never have only one reason for the use of something, they never only have one method of reaching their goals. People who plot and scheme to this level nearly always get it right because they can extrapolate so well. Even so there are always variables that are a choas factor and painful to the r-complex. The web of illusion loves to distract us and keep our attention so it is all set up like that from genetics to schooling to entertainment and politics etc...However we are looking at a level of cohesion that outlives civilisations and in the end there must only be one truth so it is hardly surprising we see this "codification" in conspiracy circles.

Originally posted by Extant Taxon
The reason I am highly suspicious of the idea you put forward is that it's so prevalent within the conspiracy community, particularly those fully involved in the Christian Right's battle aginst the occult/New Age/Gnosticism, and that it comes from a place that has (ironically) a strictly dualistic view. Black and white. Us and them. Polarised dilemmas that stultify more complex or less cosmic, more pragmatic, worldviews.

But what you say is proof of its effect. We the audience see the duality as thing to emulate, emulate our idols and their emotive "art" yet those who made the picture and understand it see it as a totally differant thing. They see duality for the quagmire that it is and instead of using their knowledge and considerable power to tell us the meanings directly and the mechanism by which they work they use it to toy with us morons who are paying 50 to take our kids to see some sh*t 3D high-def beam-o-vision pixar nonsense filled with symbolism that laughs in our ignorant faces. Letting their absurd ideas slowly trickle into our heads until we think that everything out of the ordinary is a fairytale and that if you look slightly middle eastern you should have a schimitar between your teeth and an AK in your hand.

Originally posted by Extant Taxon
The possibilities as to why such symbolic content is so widespread these days are probably multiplicitous.

Yes!

Originally posted by Extant Taxon
The key to my notion that many personnel within the music industry, especially, are using such themes in a highly cynical, denigrated fashion is evidenced by the very same. That they devalue such potent iconography, denigrate it, and make it tawdry, ego-driven,superficial, and corporatised. It morphs from a primal code that speaks to the unconscious mind in ways ineffable and slides into being just another way of representing greed and rampant corporate excess.

Religion is being liquidised and the war on altered states of consciousness is in full swing. Materialism is the new way, if symbols charged with spiritual power are degraded and changed to be resonant with money and base instincts then that makes a lot of sense in magical terms. It is like putting your goldfish's old castle in his new water tank. The magicians brings your attention to the tip of the wand and then points it in the direction he wants you to look. Transmutation of energy is as useful as gathering it and sometimes more convenient. Notice how most currency is a patchwork of sacred geometry?

To take the spiritual and muddy it with the ego is always a top priority.

In truth I cannot see the agenda allowing its symbols to be used in a way they did not approve of.

Originally posted by Extant Taxon
The tool that symbolic language is is merely neutral, and the intent behind much of it may indeed be to dominate and control the world in a corporate sense, but those who employ it have no grand magickal grimoire to circumscribe the globe, square the circle, and seal it with a planet-wide sigil; they just have have a twenty year business plan, blue chip stocks, share forecasts, financial advisors, and the ability to cloak themselves with whatever meme will most likely become the norm.

But I think they do. I think the massive amount of media hinting at 9/11 and the concept that the towers were on a leyline and the tuning fork contruction and the ceremonies where people walk around and cause vortex energy. Think the Ka-bah at Mecca and the throngs of people who circle it and worship, this building is also on a powerful leyline (you can see this circling in the film Return to Oz and in the ceremonies following the disaster).

So attention, vibration, vortex energy, links to mystic societies, every news channel in the world watching, human sacrifice AND it was fortold in the media that the same people invented AND it as the catalyst for our current position.

That is something like the planet wide sigil you refer to I think.

Originally posted by Extant Taxon
Conspiracy theory as entertainment, conspiratainment, is now mainstream like never before and a lucrative market. The average conspiracy buff who with a generic cosmic monolithic theory as to who is dominating the world, suppressing their consciousness, enslaving humanity, and laying out revelation of the method cryptocratic mocking of the victim to all and sundry, can never comprehend that it may all be done just to sell more useless s**t to the consumer, and in that everything they fear is true by proxy.
The inhuman face of the corporate, fascist superstate rules O.K., where power is exercised through indviduals, not by them.

It is paradigm crushing concepts, the answer to all questions, the truth about religion, it WILL change the world for the better. It is our one and timeless victory against the immortal enemies in the physical mental and spiritual dimensions. It is realisation after realisation and the ray of hope in the dark. It is endless possibilities. It is the third eye opening on a galaxian scale. It is our last chance and once you see the vastness you can never look back.

Yes, it is the greatest story ever told, it entertains me.

When was the last time X Factor sent you on a voyage of self discovery?

Originally posted by Extant Taxon
The other thing is if esoteric symbols are a language of sorts how can we be sure that those using it even understand what is being said (other than using it as a marketing ploy) and why should we think that what may be being communicated is the same, single message?
We are all using the English language here, but are saying very different things to each other based on varied perspectives and knowledge.

If there is only one person at the top of the pyramid there is only one person who needs to know the real meaning.

Originally posted by Extant Taxon
The other idea I would present, as a thought experiment, is that the base archetypes expressed through the use of symbolism, may be exercising power through the very people that employ them, who knows what may be acting on them in a metaphysical sense. Plato once said that men are toys in the hands of ideas (archetypes)....

Plato spent a lot of time in altered states of mind. Now it seems so did the people who currently comprise the agenda (shamanic bloodline familes, the magi) and probably always have did also. Hence why they know so much about the mechanics of reality. So my take on that is that a luciferic consciousness of some kind (maybe a perverse force of duality or gods, hilariosly names after astral bodies) is the evil idea in the hearts of men. Is it a conscious force? All I know is that the shamanic dynasties went into the astral planes and were transmitted or possessed with the knowledge of how to form civilisation with science and art and higher knowledge based on irrefutable laws of reality, magic (this is just a highly advanced form of naturalistic engineering) and symbolism (maybe the consciousness that taught the shaman created the reality we reside in, they certainly know a lot about it). Maybe these ideas are imbued with a consciousness all of their own.

Originally posted by Extant Taxon
Who is in control? Is anyone? The latter question many conspiracy theorists fear more than anything I think.

Most likely there will be a cyclical nature to this "who is really in control idea". We born alone and we die alone, in then end there is only yourself to answer to.

Good stuff, I am enjoying this thread.

I think it's obvious that symbolism effects certin people in different ways the fact someone posted a (V) and the other poster knew the hidden meaning behind it shows this.

I think it's a good bet that there are/has been people who tried to rule this planet i think Hitler was a good example of this and in the United States look no further then project MK-Ultra to show you how TPTB want to control the human mind...so it wouldn't be beyond reason that they would try and do this through symbolism, i'm sure more then one MK-Ultra experiment contained this.


Were we as people need to see this and understand the power of the mind and what TPTB are really afraid of, you can say we must understand that we are God but i think that sentiment can be misconstrued in a way but the basic premises should not be Jesus himself said be one with the creator "ie" he was saying be one with God and understand what your capable of if you dig deep inside.....

reply to post by network dude


I believe that the symbolisms that you are referring to are for anyone who understand and know their meaning, and get it. That's what my husband and I have always figured, yes we do understand some symbolism and see a lot more things now than before we didn't notice or understand the maneing. We don't take it negatively at all, we see it in a different way. A positive way.