What does symbolism do to you?

Originally posted by King Seesar
What does symbolism do too you???....I guess it depends on ones perception of such, on the surfice a symbol might just be a symbol but if it were to be thrown together with magik or some type of mind control device or some kind of occult meaning then it's different...is a symbol just a symbol depends who you ask, i would say no there's meaning behind some of it but deciphering who or what has a agenda through it again depends on ones perception.

Good grief. Our ALPHABET is symbols!!! Each letter is a symbol for a sound. Symbols are a way of communicating to others of the same mind, a thought, an idea, a sound.....May I suggest everyone get over the word "symbol" as if a
"symbol" because it is a "symbol", in and of itself "must mean Satanic associations"? If you want to talk of symbolism, the first, and very first thing you must do, is to calm down.

reply to post by Extant Taxon


I think you have hit the nail on the head. Conspiracies have become somewhat mainstream. If Jessie Ventura can have a TV show about conspiracies that goes for more than 1 episode, I think that proves it. So given that the public digs conspiracies, the media engine can use that to their advantage. And the smart ones already have. Namely JZ and the others mentioned in your post. Yep, whatever shoes sell the best will be worn by all.

As usual, your insight is 4 dimensional.

reply to post by chefc14


Thanks I'll check it out..

reply to post by missvicky


Yeah I did a little research... Found a few different points and there meanings but can't find the meaning of 8.. Although a few posts here have been useful I'll research some more.. Thanks for your reply..

Originally posted by Misterlondon
reply to post by missvicky

 

Yeah I did a little research... Found a few different points and there meanings but can't find the meaning of 8.. Although a few posts here have been useful I'll research some more.. Thanks for your reply..

The meaning of 8 depends upon the dicspline you are studying. For example: Feng Shui 8 is prosperous. Wicca: the seasons Christiainity: redemption.

The symbols are all over the place. They are rooted in mathmatics, astonomy, the zodiac. It depends on your belief system as to how you interpret them. the swastica is an excellent example of that. Up until Hitler's Germany, it was considered the symbol of the sun. After Hitler, well you know.

reply to post by Misterlondon


It's one very recent interpretation of it.
At one point it was also a symbol used to ward off evil.

reply to post by fordrew


Only if they are taught what the symbol means by someone else, the reason why there are so many interpretations of what symbols mean is due to people adding their own interpretations over it when they don't recognize it.

Originally posted by RuneSpider
reply to post by Misterlondon

 

It's one very recent interpretation of it.
At one point it was also a symbol used to ward off evil.

reply to post by fordrew

 

Only if they are taught what the symbol means by someone else, the reason why there are so many interpretations of what symbols mean is due to people adding their own interpretations over it when they don't recognize it.

Alot of symbols are used as protection....especially by those who were/are told the symbol is protective. Study the history of the symbol. The 8-pointed star is not one that is/was used widely as protective. it's found deeper in the mysteries. The pentagram, the cross(in all it's varied representations), bells, jack o' lanterns, yeah widely used as protection. But the 8-star? No. The 8-star is higher/deeper.

this might help:
commons.wikimedia.org...:Ishtar-star-symbol-simplified.svg

symbols do nothing, period. Some people use symbols to communicate to one another, like the Jesus fish, or cross, may not mean must to us now, but perhaps back then, it was a sign of some brotherhood, or understanding, that we cannot comprehend. Evil, doesn't exist, it does, but it kinda doesn't.

You are partially correct on this.

Much of the time, symbols are used to see who of like mind or path might be out there. One never knows when a wink-wink-nudge-nudge will come in handy; ask anyone who puts a thin blue line sticker on their car when they don't actually have any relatives on the police force. Sometimes, however, sigils are used to channel energy in a particular way toward a particular end. Goetic seals are foci for particular entities; sigils act a little like software (spellware?) for certain forms of magick.

Originally posted by Misterlondon
Does anyone know what an 8 pointed star with a circle in the middle means, or what it is associated with.. It's a long story why is so important to me, and it's a little 'out there' and personal to just put in a post.. I have tried to research it with little joy.. If anyone knows what is means, I would very much appreciate it..

Could it be a chaos arrow? Does it look anything like this?

reply to post by network dude


Thank you for the ernest reply

I in no way am saying it is "satanic" symbolism. I find it obnoxious that whenever confronted with an idea that challenges the Christian dogma it is immediately castigated as satanic. IMHO many Christians assign to much to "satan" and undermine the greatness of an all powerful God to equate Christianity as a dualistic philosophy with "satan" as a yin to God's yang.

I detest dualism in general but that is off topic.

Masonry seems to be all about symbolism and thus the whole impetus for this thread. Manly P. Hall said: "It is neither historical nor archaeo- logical, but is a divine symbolic language perpetu- ating under certain concrete symbols the divine mysteries of the ancients."

So symbolism is then, to you, the key to understanding everything... no?

A person is not meant to leave any of the rites knowing any more than he came in. It is the reflection upon the symbolism of those rites that leads to higher understanding, or enlightenment. To again quote Hall: "The true student realizes most of all that the taking of degrees does not make a man a Mason; a Mason is not appointed, he is evolved, and he must realize that the position he holds in the exoteric lodge means nothing compared to his position in the spiritual lodge of life. He must forever cast out of his being the idea that he can be told or instructed in the sacred mysteries or that his being a member of an organization im- proves him in any way; he must realize that his duty is to build and evolve the sacred teaching in his own being: that nothing but his own purified being can unlock the door to the sealed libraries of human consciousness, and that his Masonic rites must eternally be speculative until he makes them operative by living the life of the mystic Mason."

I am baffled that you claim not to know or understand the symbolism. Is it just so you don't have to talk about them here or that you truely do not understand them? Or was hall right when he wrote this?

"The initiated brother realizes that his so-called symbols and rituals are merely blinds built by the wise to perpetuate ideas incomprehensible to the average individual. He also realizes that few Masons of today know or appreciate the mystic meaning concealed within these rituals. "

Originally posted by pianopraze
reply to post by network dude

 

Thank you for the ernest reply

I in no way am saying it is "satanic" symbolism. I find it obnoxious that whenever confronted with an idea that challenges the Christian dogma it is immediately castigated as satanic. IMHO many Christians assign to much to "satan" and undermine the greatness of an all powerful God to equate Christianity as a dualistic philosophy with "satan" as a yin to God's yang.

I detest dualism in general but that is off topic.

Masonry seems to be all about symbolism and thus the whole impetus for this thread. Manly P. Hall said: "It is neither historical nor archaeo- logical, but is a divine symbolic language perpetu- ating under certain concrete symbols the divine mysteries of the ancients."

So symbolism is then, to you, the key to understanding everything... no?

A person is not meant to leave any of the rites knowing any more than he came in. It is the reflection upon the symbolism of those rites that leads to higher understanding, or enlightenment. To again quote Hall: "The true student realizes most of all that the taking of degrees does not make a man a Mason; a Mason is not appointed, he is evolved, and he must realize that the position he holds in the exoteric lodge means nothing compared to his position in the spiritual lodge of life. He must forever cast out of his being the idea that he can be told or instructed in the sacred mysteries or that his being a member of an organization im- proves him in any way; he must realize that his duty is to build and evolve the sacred teaching in his own being: that nothing but his own purified being can unlock the door to the sealed libraries of human consciousness, and that his Masonic rites must eternally be speculative until he makes them operative by living the life of the mystic Mason."

I am baffled that you claim not to know or understand the symbolism. Is it just so you don't have to talk about them here or that you truely do not understand them? Or was hall right when he wrote this?

I never claimed not to understand the symbolism, just that it can change with interpretation or could mean something completely different to another person. M.P.Hall was spot on with this paragraph. We will never achieve all the knowledge we were meant to have. We will die searching for our truth. He is saying that we must try to live and lead by example, but to never be so arrogant as to assume we are above anyone or anything. We as masons are trying to make ourselves into the perfect ashlar. We know that we are always going to resemble the rough ashlar in the plane of existence, but we should never stop working that stone.

"The initiated brother realizes that his so-called symbols and rituals are merely blinds built by the wise to perpetuate ideas incomprehensible to the average individual. He also realizes that few Masons of today know or appreciate the mystic meaning concealed within these rituals. "

edit on 29-11-2010 by pianopraze because: editied quote

as I said earlier, you must search for the knowledge. Nobody is going to dump the meaning of life in your lap. And if they did, and you weren't ready to hear it, it would be wasted. You search, you study, you learn, you live, then you understand. Nobody takes the place of "you" in that equation.

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by Extant Taxon

 

I think you have hit the nail on the head. Conspiracies have become somewhat mainstream. If Jessie Ventura can have a TV show about conspiracies that goes for more than 1 episode, I think that proves it. So given that the public digs conspiracies, the media engine can use that to their advantage. And the smart ones already have. Namely JZ and the others mentioned in your post. Yep, whatever shoes sell the best will be worn by all.

As usual, your insight is 4 dimensional.

This is a very lax concept and one that comes instantly to mind when we see the prevalence of such symbolism. It does not explain why it has been around for so long though does it? Or the clear process of initiation some unwary idols fall into.

Are you saying Jay-Z is not in the secret societies and is just interested or playing up? Possible, but it does not explain how his lyrics suggest higher knowledge and premonition of events or how convenient it is to have such a noxious group of people control such a large chunk of pop culture, it does not explain why quite talentless people are worshipped. It does not explain why they take to playing their world stage parts so well "Kanye playing the joker".

reply to post by Majestic23


I'm saying that there is manipulation of occult symbolism occurring in the entertainment industry, but perhaps without the focus that is traditionally applied in conspiracy theory circles.

Well, I think it's not a big secret that a lot of people in the music industry (or at least the musicians) are into the occult. Hell, a lot of bands are solely based on the occult. But the fact that you print a pentagram or any other occult symbol on your CD cover doesn't make you some kind of a master wizard, or even very well informed on the esoterica. Jimmy Page owned the Boleskine House, Bowie was in the O.T.O..

Many times the occult just works as an inspiration, and the music may just be the language to interpret it. I wouldn't get too paranoid about it. Sure, The Simpsons is full of strange remarks and symbolism. But it's just art and entertainment. A great way to add some mysticism into your works

Originally posted by Extant Taxon
reply to post by Majestic23

 

I'm saying that there is manipulation of occult symbolism occurring in the entertainment industry, but perhaps without the focus that is traditionally applied in conspiracy theory circles.

Then Kubrick had no idea what he was doing? 2001 et all is a study in the occult.

Sorry, but I cannot agree. He laid it out for all to see... Eye's Wide Shut.

Originally posted by Majestic23
This is a very lax concept and one that comes instantly to mind when we see the prevalence of such symbolism. It does not explain why it has been around for so long though does it? Or the clear process of initiation some unwary idols fall into.

Are you saying Jay-Z is not in the secret societies and is just interested or playing up? Possible, but it does not explain how his lyrics suggest higher knowledge and premonition of events or how convenient it is to have such a noxious group of people control such a large chunk of pop culture, it does not explain why quite talentless people are worshipped. It does not explain why they take to playing their world stage parts so well "Kanye playing the joker".

I will tell you like I see it. Being a member of a "secret society", I speak with other members of other "secret societies". Most of them are doing the same thing we are. Trying to fend off the ignorance and arrogance of those who fear what they don't understand. So very little dialog is had between members and non members. It's always the same crap. But on occasion we get to have meaningful conversations. I find that everyone I speak with is of the same mindset that no, there is no hidden mystical, magical powers hidden in everyday things. We find that we are on a quest for knowledge. So all this talk of being "Illuminati", or whatever group these people claim to be, is just that. They might be involved in a group like masonry, but they have no super powers because of it. It's possible that Jay Z is using his message to get kids to be interested in masonry. I can tell you that gang banging and selling drugs is not synonymous with masonry. A kid who joins early in life, tends to be very grounded and wholesome when compared to some others. (that is my opinion only) If that's the case, I applaud him. And if he happens to get stupid filthy rich while doing it, great. But I don't believe anyone who claims to be in a secret group has any secret clout that others don't. And no amount of hidden symbolism changes that.

reply to post by network dude

I never claimed not to understand the symbolism, just that it can change with interpretation or could mean something completely different to another person. M.P.Hall was spot on with this paragraph. We will never achieve all the knowledge we were meant to have. We will die searching for our truth. He is saying that we must try to live and lead by example, but to never be so arrogant as to assume we are above anyone or anything. We as masons are trying to make ourselves into the perfect ashlar. We know that we are always going to resemble the rough ashlar in the plane of existence, but we should never stop working that stone.

Does not the changing of the symbol at every level show the Mason that there are ever deeper meanings and drive the mason to study the symbolism and dig deeper?

This teaches that there are always deeper "hidden" (by very definition occult) meanings to all the symbols. The end is a mystical tradition, imbedded into the symbols that Mason claim go back millennia?

Surely you must know, just in the name Ch**** (to use the Chaldean) that the meaning is alchemical in nature. The true transformation in alchemy which you equate to stone in your reply.

So back to your original question, the answer must be... symbolism changes your very essence.

Thus symbols to Masons are, as Majestic23 pointed out, hermetical. You incorporate the essence of an idea and it works for you. It is a form of imposing your will upon the cosmos. Some call it "magic" but for some reason when, say Christians, through the effort of evangelizing the cross, impose their will on the cosmos it is ok. It is the same.

More so that most Christians know actually. Jesus said he must be lifted up as moses lifted the snake septer in the wilderness, so that He might draw all men to him. If you look at the symbol Moses raised it was the caduceus. Which is also the symbol of Hermes. The cross becomes a caduceus. Which is deeper than most people realize because healing comes through our Chackra system which the Caduceus represents the rising Kundalini. Doctors to this very day use it as our symbol of healing.

Thus we've come full circle to Mason's which seem to me, an outsider just to be a Hermetic order. Wikipedia gives forth this gem: "The origin of the word Hermes relates to a stone pillar used to communicate with the deities and the use of names beginning with Herm in Greece dates from at least 600 BCE. The God Hermes is a generic term used by the pre-classical Greeks for any deity,"

Sound's just like Masons to me.

as I said earlier, you must search for the knowledge. Nobody is going to dump the meaning of life in your lap. And if they did, and you weren't ready to hear it, it would be wasted. You search, you study, you learn, you live, then you understand. Nobody takes the place of "you" in that equation.

I totally agree. We are the third pillar. Most of what I've written in this message is wasted as people will gloss over it and not understand what I've written. But I've laid out many of the secrets of the ages... a stoning offense in most ages.

reply to post by pianopraze


our symbols are ever changing. Not just in masonry but in life. The square and compass represent something that every mason identifies with. Just as the plumb square and level do in their own right. And lest we forge the trowel. If you should ever think yourself an expert, you should be questioning your thought process. We are always learning in this ever changing world. So don't be upset that a symbol changes meaning. It only did for you. To others, it's still exactly what they thought it was. Masonry teaches interpretation. that's why you will have 10 different masons give you 10 different answers to the question "what does masonry mean to you?" You could not understand the secondary meaning of a symbol completely without first knowing it's original intent. Which is why we are taught in a process that builds upon the previous lesson. (ask any mason who remembers learning his catechism).

You have some very specialized knowledge and I look forward to learning more from you. thanks for the discussion.