The use of agent provovoteurs on ATS

"Om"

Originally posted by SeventhSeal

We have Republicans for that.

Or maybe we have SeventhSeal for this? I mean, the false "left/right" paradigm is the biggest piece of disinformation in the modern era.

I can promise you, from my own firsthand knowledge, that there ARE government agents here. Some (like Bedlam) will openly tell you. Others are not as forthcoming. But regardless, public opinion is steered by various governmental entities. Use of internet forums is just one such way.

ETA: think of it like this: people are paid t post in forums to "infiltrate" various terror cells, etc. In so doing, they behave in a way that will draw out more "terrorists". In the process of behaving this way, they actually tend to incite the very hatred that they are there to identify.

Call it entrapment, if you would like. But that is just one scenario of what happens. Without such agents coaxing people along, the majority of the "terror attacks" that the FBI has thwarted would have never even been designed in the first place. The agents provocateur are the catalysts that spur these individuals to act, and then provide them a rope with which to hang themselves.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
I can promise you, from my own firsthand knowledge

...thx but no thx... i dont know where your hand has been... might have cooties...

...btw, just how fat and furry are ya?...

Let me tell what my strategy would be if I were a AP or disinfo agent or whatever you wanna call it on the ATS ...

I would start threads and make posts on the subject of agents provocateurs and disinfo agents, I would always focus on posters instead of posts, and I would always use ad hominem logical fallacies and attacks attacking posters/sources and always focusing on motive instead of substance in full knowledge that motive is all but impossible to decipher in a forum environment.

Basically I would use every possible tactic to distract from information exchange and analysis and focus on the insignificant. It's not hard ... this and many other threads like it indicate how easy it is to distract others and how easily some are distracted. It has always been obvious that the easiest and shortest route to deflection is not refuting information, for that requires people/time/effort, but to simply plant the seed of suspicion and have us all intellectually cannibalize each other through mutual distrust.

Sad thing is that no one even needs to go out of their way to plant such seeds on forums such as ATS where paranoia, fear, insecurity, and distrust reign from the top down, assuring that this dynamic is self inflicted and constant.

Meh ... and so it goes ...

Originally posted by SeventhSeal
I believe this may be a case of severe paranoia. Some may think there are "agents" on this web site, therefore, they'll point someone out and accuse them of being such a thing if they disagree with an opinion or ideology.

I wouldn't doubt this site was or is still monitored by some kind of authorities, but really, no one's going to sign up to spread disinformation.

We have Republicans for that.

in a lot of cases you may be right, but let me tell you a little story. In 02 I was goofing off on a music forum and had some trouble with some of the member for reason I could not fathom. While this was happening someone decided to post two very disturbing pictures of a young naked man standing outside in the dark with a chain hooked around his neck and the other end of the chain was going toward the camera. the young many had a pretty concerned look on his face. the next picture they posted was of the same young man although it was blurry and he was lunging forward as if being pulled to the ground and the chain no longer showed slack.

At first i thought it was some weird gay game and thought "gee, that looks like Michaels brother"... and laughed it off.

...but then I got to thinking about it because Michaels brother had gone missing years before and they thought they had found his body in the river next to where he was spending some time in a camper (he was not known for responsibility and it was decided he got mixed up with bad people and got himself into trouble) his body was found in the river and his head was found a good distance away somewhere up the river trail.

The last time I had talked to his brother he told me that the local police wasn't really doing anything about the case and that they never found out what happened to him. I got curious and called the local sheriffs department and asked the investigating unit if there had been anything turned over on that case and the man on the phone said "Why don't YOU tell me what YOU know" I got off the phone with the man without saying anything else because at that point I realized that the case was probably taken over by the FBI. You see, before Micheals brother moved up to this small town where he was staying by the river he was trying to mess around with some young kid... a boy closer to my age at the time and rumor had it that he had gotten him all #ed up on pills one night and out of the blue, his whole family decided they were going to move out of town... like they were scared of something. If my memory serves me correctly, this kid who this murdered fellow had messed around with were latinos from a small farming community that were originally from texas and he had a pretty sister in middle school that my sister was in classes with who was always bragging that her daddy was in the hell's angels.

Hence the reason this case was taken over by the FBI... assuming the fact that a well known outlaw biker group tied him to a bike and drug him up the river trail until his head came apart from being smashed into roots and stumps...and thus we have established what happened to michaels brother...although the locals were never able to tell his family anything.

the question is... HOW did some random asshole on the internet get his hands on pictorial biker souvenirs that were also evidence in a serious crime. this # is files away and if someone still had them in their sock drawer, i find it really surprising they would be showing it off online... to me... a person who never hung out with the guy much, didn't really like him and hadn't seen or heard of him in several years... but there it was.

taunting?...somehow, yes... was it a person on the street or was it somebody with access to these files who was trying to hint to me that I was being watched... and guess what? I was being being told constantly that i was being watched, how about that?

Also, I got into a little bit of trouble and was put in jail (it seems locals are dying to lock me up) and found out that despite never having been convicted of any felonies, I have federal files that locals can't access... and they were quite curious about me, but #ing hell, I didn't know what to tell them. I didn't know anything about it.

Do i sit around and put a lot of thought into it? not really. Do I think I'm being watched, yes... but it's not anything of critical importance. It can't be. I have done a pretty good job at doing nothing with my life so far. Has it caused me problems? Yes... Do i get paranoid? not anymore. ... but does it make even the slightest little charade of great annoyance to me because someone thinks they've got a brain in their head and likes to push buttons. ABSOLUTELY. I've adopted the mindset that if they want something from me at this point they would just be smart enough to ask... but maybe they have gone away, maybe they are just still twiddling their thumbs... who knows? All i know is these things shouldn't surprise anyone. Is it disturbing? YES... but is it really that hard to do? No. do you know how many government agencies out there just practically invented themselves and can get this type of access if they dig hard enough. If something like this were happening, yes... they probably know the exact names of the people they are looking for and it might have something to do with the site itself or it might just be an internet cop watching a particular persons activity... but these things happen. They happen everyday... they happen all the time. It shouldn't surprise anyone.

As for this site itself... haven't quite figured out what the deal is here.. and probably will never. it seems to be fully open to contrasting ideas, so it's not full of heavy propaganda... but it does seem to see a lot of strange traffic and who knows where it's coming from because I'm no hacker... I don't track these things so i have no idea who would be doing what... i can only guess, but some people's posts do seem to be pretty "loaded"
meaning... they are unbelievable. meaning, the person posting them is talking a load of horse# and one can only wonder why. i can think of a lot of reason this would be taking place but what's important is that the people who are doing it are at least able to identify their reasons in order to ask themselves if they think that what they are doing is getting them anywhere, because what I see is a lot of pointless reverse psychology and it does get annoying... and I admit, it's not good to dwell on it. There could be some bad intentions in there and then again, even the best of intentions get completely out of hand and detrimental to the very agenda that they came from.

I was laying in bed the other day and as I was drifting off to sleep I heard a little voice that said, "there is really no point in going through any of the stuff written on the website"... yet still I do... and I have my reasons.

One of these days someone is going to relax their death grip of control that they strangle the truth with... and if they don't, I pity their souls.

reply to post by Clark Savage Jr.

as soon as one fires up the old PC, it is a constant barrage of half-informed pop cultural BS , pseudo science, youtube 'evidence' and wikipedia 'facts'.
As for these secret agents,they logically couldn't pose a greater threat than the average bored college kid or out of work trucker with an opinion and an audience anyhow IF we would all try to develop a degree of critical thinking and actually pay attention to what we see or read online.
My two cents.

Two well-spent cents.

Anyone who thinks there's any kind of "threat" on ATS among all the idiocy is giving us way too much credit. For a site that destroys its own credibility by permitting baseless threads to run on over 30+ (or hundreds) of pages, ATS is hardly the first thing law enforcement would think of while looking for worthwhile targets.

Just scanning a couple of pages of the "most recent posts," or a look at the hottest topics, and a hungry cop will move to more fertile ground. And minds.

Deny ignorance.

jw

Originally posted by jdub297
reply to post by Clark Savage Jr.

 

as soon as one fires up the old PC, it is a constant barrage of half-informed pop cultural BS , pseudo science, youtube 'evidence' and wikipedia 'facts'.
As for these secret agents,they logically couldn't pose a greater threat than the average bored college kid or out of work trucker with an opinion and an audience anyhow IF we would all try to develop a degree of critical thinking and actually pay attention to what we see or read online.
My two cents.

Two well-spent cents.

Anyone who thinks there's any kind of "threat" on ATS among all the idiocy is giving us way too much credit. For a site that destroys its own credibility by permitting baseless threads to run on over 30+ (or hundreds) of pages, ATS is hardly the first thing law enforcement would think of while looking for worthwhile targets.

Just scanning a couple of pages of the "most recent posts," or a look at the hottest topics, and a hungry cop will move to more fertile ground. And minds.

Deny ignorance.

jw

It never had to be about the site itself. There could be a lot of reasons that it could be happening to anyone. when regulars users on the site get prejudgemental about it, it only adds to the confusion.

It's sometimes hard not to jump to conclusions. I could tell you some pretty crazy stuff that has happened on the internet to me. seriously, you would not believe it. Something that happened to me because of the internet over ten years ago... caused something to happen in real life and if I was able to prove it, the person who did it would not want me telling people online. SRS. In short, someone hacked something from a protected computer system and used it in one of their ways to make money (not talking about the above scenario or anything paranormal)... just typical greedy bull# as far as I can see and I could get proof but it would cost me....sooo

but anyway... you have no idea who is online right now that might have enemies that have nothing better to do than sit behind a computer all day... kinda like I do, but unlike me they are hackers.

What I'm saying is it happens. It's like watching freeway traffic and assuming that in nary one of the cars that pass you by is a murderer to think that these things don't happen. sites get investigated all the time... individual posters get investigated all the time.

Originally posted by Wyn Hawks

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
I can promise you, from my own firsthand knowledge

...thx but no thx... i dont know where your hand has been... might have cooties...

...btw, just how fat and furry are ya?...

Fat? Depends on the time of year. Winter, a little more so. Summer? Not so much. I am a former powerlifter, so i weigh far, far more than i appear. Most guess in the 280 range. I am closer to 420 right now.

Furry? Not so much anymore. Had hair to my butt. Cut it awhile back. The name is a gift from a former employee when i ran a call center in Wyoming.

ETA: in all seriousness....you won't often find me working hard to convince someone of something that is extraordinary. There are things I know to be true, and i am here trying to find ways to prove it to others. But if i don't find that proof, I am fine with it. I have my own experiences which I cannot ask you to believe.

reply to post by ChaosMagician


Being a Moderator of a death/gore forum, I can tell you it's very easy to get a hold of crime scene photos. Local, national, international, it doesn't matter....it's not that difficult to get access to photos that have been investigated by the FBI...especially ones of a murder.


The forum also features Uncensored content that ATS wouldn't even touch and I assure you, we're in the clear. If we're good, ATS is just fine

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


...i really didnt expect you to answer my silliness...

...my son is a whopper too... 6'4" - not sure what he weighs but he's no little thang... one day he picked up my riding lawn mower like it was a tinker toy... all i could think was thank goodness he loves his mama, lol...



...on another note, i should apologize to yyyyyyyyyy for derailing this thread with chit-chat... sorry... i'll try to behave tomorrow...

Originally posted by SeventhSeal
reply to post by ChaosMagician

 

Being a Moderator of a death/gore forum, I can tell you it's very easy to get a hold of crime scene photos. Local, national, international, it doesn't matter....it's not that difficult to get access to photos that have been investigated by the FBI...especially ones of a murder.

...did you happen to visit the thread about the actor who killed his mother with a sword?... one of the news articles showed the crime scene pics... i was surprised, since its not been to trial yet... guess i'm behind the times or "not in tune" cuz i didnt realize that was common...

Originally posted by SeventhSeal
reply to post by ChaosMagician

 

Being a Moderator of a death/gore forum, I can tell you it's very easy to get a hold of crime scene photos. Local, national, international, it doesn't matter....it's not that difficult to get access to photos that have been investigated by the FBI...especially ones of a murder.


The forum also features Uncensored content that ATS wouldn't even touch and I assure you, we're in the clear. If we're good, ATS is just fine

Is that so? I had to testify at a murder trial when I was 15. The crime photos were taken by the police. They were shown to the jury, judge, family of the deceased and of course all who investigated.(different case, not the guy at the river)

So without me telling you my name, you find that particular case and those particular photos of that dead man's body that were not published and were filed away and then you will have made your point.

and even if you could, it still does not explain why someone would want to do that and how they even knew that i knew who this guy was in the first place. i hadn't even seen him in several years... nor his brother.

Hop to it.

Originally posted by Wyn Hawks

Originally posted by SeventhSeal
reply to post by ChaosMagician

 

Being a Moderator of a death/gore forum, I can tell you it's very easy to get a hold of crime scene photos. Local, national, international, it doesn't matter....it's not that difficult to get access to photos that have been investigated by the FBI...especially ones of a murder.

...did you happen to visit the thread about the actor who killed his mother with a sword?... one of the news articles showed the crime scene pics... i was surprised, since its not been to trial yet... guess i'm behind the times or "not in tune" cuz i didnt realize that was common...

the photos I'm talking about were not published.. they were of a naked man, the family was never shown or told what happened, the local police had no idea what happened, there was no trial. I assume that outside investigators came in, took over the case, used the evidence they found to track the one who did it to have him turn over federal evidence concerning other crimes related to biker groups. When it comes to groups like that, it is often taken over by the FBI because they treat gangs like that the same way they do the mob. That's essentially what they are... a mob.

Even if they had published this... none of this explains how anyone on that forum who only knew me by my screen name and my typical goofing off (or so o thought) who I was or who i had known in my life. that is digging pretty damn deep on another member of a message board.

When they pick up someone in a group like that and get them to rat, they don't go trial like you would think... they have private court hearings and stuff like that so that the members of their former group don't connect the dots. this is why the family was never told #. Had it been anyone else but a biker, the family would have been told a lot more... instead they were told NOTHING. NADA. ZIP. ZILCH.

The whole thing hadn't even crossed my mind in several years. You know what someone suggested?... I think one of the locals... a wild animal got him while he was passed out. Just a guess. Just a stupid guess.

The locals couldn't get this info, much less some person running a music forum.

reply to post by ChaosMagician



Reminds me of the case of a young girl named Nikki aka Porsche Girl. She was driving her daddy's Porsche one day while on some coke (at least we believe she was) and got into an accident. The result was fatal. Photos of her skull ripped apart and her brains hanging out surfaced on the internet and her family demanded them to be removed from sites that published them. Of course, not every web site granted their wishes...

Sometimes you have situations where the murderer publishes the photos of his victims online. Example: A German musician murdered and beheaded a young female. He posted the photos of it onto some gore/death forum. After he posted them, he got into his car, drove off and went head on into a truck. The scumbag died. The police contacted the site and the photos were removed...however, they were already saved by quite a few members.

Those horrific photos are only one Three forums that I know of (one of them being the one I moderate).

I do find it interesting someone was interested in digging into your life though on a message board.

Originally posted by SeventhSeal
reply to post by ChaosMagician

 

Reminds me of the case of a young girl named Nikki aka Porsche Girl. She was driving her daddy's Porsche one day while on some coke (at least we believe she was) and got into an accident. The result was fatal. Photos of her skull ripped apart and her brains hanging out surfaced on the internet and her family demanded them to be removed from sites that published them. Of course, not every web site granted their wishes...

Sometimes you have situations where the murderer publishes the photos of his victims online. Example: A German musician murdered and beheaded a young female. He posted the photos of it onto some gore/death forum. After he posted them, he got into his car, drove off and went head on into a truck. The scumbag died. The police contacted the site and the photos were removed...however, they were already saved by quite a few members.

Those horrific photos are only one Three forums that I know of (one of them being the one I moderate).

I do find it interesting someone was interested in digging into your life though on a message board.

edit on 29-11-2010 by SeventhSeal because: (no reason given)

yeah, they seemed to be pretty strategically placed and I did not know the kid's dad... I could barely remember his name after being in 4th grade with him. How he would have known who I was would have been a good question and very obscure- there's no real reason for a connection... or anyone knowing that I even knew the guy who was killed except for his family, who were just in the dark as anyone and would have no reason for doing this... not that details of people's lives aren't filed away as well, especially if someone is keeping tabs on them or they've been involved or had to testify in other cases. The guy was basically a nobody and I have never seen anything about him anywhere online in any other place.

one interesting thing though... Like I said, I knew his brother. We dated around the time I quit school. One day at school (and this is part of the reason I quit... MOST of us quit)... Michael checked out a book from the school library that he saw in there one day. Then later on in class he was called out into the hall and handcuffed and taken to jail. He was arrested for having the Anarchist cookbook. that book tells you how to make bombs. Apparently one of his teachers saw it on his desk and reported it despite the fact that he got it right out of the school library.

Later they dropped the charges and the school said they didn't know how it got in there.

Coincidence? I think not.

I've seen stupid # like this happening around me all my life and one day, somebody's got some 'splainin' to dooo!

reply to post by yyyyyyyyyy


A good way to tell is look at the issues that TPTB need public support for and then look at all the new members arrive to push the agenda and then disappear into the night.



Remember all the posters pushing for the health care bill I do. And I dont see a single one of them posting anymore. Hmmmm

Originally posted by Subjective Truth
reply to post by yyyyyyyyyy

 

A good way to tell is look at the issues that TPTB need public support for and then look at all the new members arrive to push the agenda and then disappear into the night.



Remember all the posters pushing for the health care bill I do. And I dont see a single one of them posting anymore. Hmmmm

see... things like that- it's often about the small details.

All sorts of reasons that suggestiveness becomes so infectious.
It's almost better to walk around with your fingers in your ears going LALALALALALALA and just running around like little kid not paying any attention to the so called grown ups conversation.

...although i'm sure some of those numbers come from pulling in traffic via google. this sites content is crawled pretty well from what I can tell... but all of it? I doubt it.

reply to post by ChaosMagician





I think we see planed and organized steering of certain thread on ATS. Just look back at the health care threads and then look at the posters other posts and you will see patterns I did. And then the new posters just vanish.

reply to post by yyyyyyyyyy


Your post concerned "agent provovoteurs" being on ATS. You said agent provovoteurs were agents paid to encourage others to break the law so the resultant disturbance could then be blamed on the target group in question. I really have seen none of this on ATS.

I certainly believe that "dis-info agents" are on ATS, however. Unfortunately, it would be difficult to prove who was a paid dis-info agent and who was simply a sceptic. So, trying to do somthing to limit dis-info agents on ATS would be futile, IMO.

The best way to counter a dis-info agent is to be well informed on the subect in question and stand your ground. Not so hard for the typical ATS'er, I'd say!