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Christians, Was the Sun created after Vegetation?

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posted on Nov, 26 2010 @ 11:41 PM
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That may sound like a stupid question but....

Recently I had a very unpleasant exchange with a hardcore atheist that claimed that most Christians believe the Sun was created after vegetation or grass. He says the bible teaches that, I disagreed.
I found that some fundamentalist actually do believe this.
If your a Christian please relate what YOU believe on this matter.
Personally I believe God created our solar systems Sun in the context of Genesis 1:1 embedded within the "Heavens" many millions of eons ago.

SCOFIELD REFERENCE NOTES

The new beginning - the first day: light diffused Let there be light Neither here nor in verses 14-18 is an original creative act implied. A different word is used. The sense is, made to appear; made visible. The sun and moon were created "in the beginning." The "light" of course came from the sun, but the vapour diffused the light. Later the sun appeared in an unclouded sky.


NOTE: This thread is for Christians that believe in creation to give their honest opinions, and not for atheists to hijack it.




posted on Nov, 26 2010 @ 11:51 PM
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atheists are idiots, they spend more time talking about God than the Pope does.



posted on Nov, 26 2010 @ 11:54 PM
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OK here we go, the easiest answer would be that of the Sun being made first off and then being able to see it later like you said. There is also the argument of translation for this one, the way the ancient Hebrew was translated things like timelines can get a bit off, that one however is a little far fetched. I personally believe this, yeah he created the grass first, so? The "days" style of the Genesis account is simply the way of breaking up the information into segments, it's possible He created the Sun immediately after the grass. One interesting thing I find about folks who bring up things like "yeah well if the Bible is true why does it say that grass was made before the sun huh? huh?!?!?!" are the same folk who say things like "don't look at the Bible as being literal"..... make up your minds.



posted on Nov, 27 2010 @ 12:04 AM
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Dont let you atheist friend belittle your faith. Remember that they don't WANT the bible to be true. And they don't want there to be a God. This way they can feel free to live a life of sin and not feel condemned. But as it's written in corinthians, every man has God's law written on his heart.

With that said your atheist friend is technically right, the sun was created after vegetation. However that doesn't mean anything because the very first thing God created in Gensis was light!
Genesis 1:3 "Then God said, 'Let there be light', and there was light."

So even if there wasn't a sun it doesn't mean that the plants on Earth weren't receiving light in some way.
If nothing else, Gods breath alone can supply life to anything (remember who were dealing with here), and since he made everything he could easily make vegetation without the sun, where the plants are getting their light from HIm.



posted on Nov, 27 2010 @ 12:11 AM
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Sure enough.

That is an interesting point, the breath of God being life and all. Another interesting thing now that you've brought up the light issue, God is also referred to as being Light. Look at Rev 21;23. If God is around who needs sun?



posted on Nov, 27 2010 @ 12:20 AM
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reply to post by Jermicide
 


God wants us to believe in Him based on faith, not based on fact.
"Oh there's God, let's bow down because we have to". Wouldn't that suck?
Isn't it great that God gives us a choice to reject him?
Most people wrongly assume God is like a robot.
He has feelings just like we do, and he wants to be loved by people who choose to.

Also it says in Genesis 1:14 "Then God said, 'Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and for years; and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give lights on the earth '; and it was so."

There are different interpretations of this verse but what I get from it is that He wanted to create some form of time measurement for us.


edit on 27-11-2010 by freedish because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 27 2010 @ 12:35 AM
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Well,... whatever... what about this:
If God is light and the light is in Him,... then why is it totally dark before He created anything?????????!!!!!!

Which God did create this earth?
A dark God?
If you read the revelation of John in the Nag Hammadi scriptures, you will find this is indeed the truth.
The same god that condemned his creation in the first week.
The one who said he is a jalous god (why would he be jalous?), because he knew there was a higher God.



posted on Nov, 27 2010 @ 01:41 AM
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Originally posted by noahproductions
Well,... whatever... what about this:
If God is light and the light is in Him,... then why is it totally dark before He created anything?????????!!!!!!

Which God did create this earth?
A dark God?
If you read the revelation of John in the Nag Hammadi scriptures, you will find this is indeed the truth.
The same god that condemned his creation in the first week.
The one who said he is a jalous god (why would he be jalous?), because he knew there was a higher God.


I believe this website will have all the information you seek. www.godandscience.org...



posted on Nov, 27 2010 @ 06:15 AM
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reply to post by Blue_Jay33
 

If your a Christian please relate what YOU believe on this matter.
I think that chapter One of Genesis is more a commentary on the rest of the book. What I mean is that it is later than the more organic Second chapter but organizes it to clarify some ambiguities and to be maybe more specific about what is god and what is not god, to better separate the creator and the creation.
The Creator being God does not have to follow any rules and being God does not have to sacrifice Himself or have some sort of previous god die in order to leave a legacy of a universe that our current "god" would inherit as some sort of divine ruler over a pre-existing thing that was already ordered according to these unknown laws and rules that define a universe, rules that had to be followed by the god who we have come to know, and have adopted as our "official" god.
The writer of Genesis One was saying that the god we know as God, and the one who takes care of us, is also the god who is supremely God and can order about the highest order of things which in our human minds, think are the arbiters and the predictors of all life, such as the Sun and Moon and the stars. They do not order God.


edit on 27-11-2010 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 27 2010 @ 10:54 AM
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Light was created the first day and the Sun, moon, stars on the fourth day. Heaven on the second and vegetation on the third.

This was foreshadowing the difference between those who actually worship the physical sun instead of the Light. If the sun were gone, life would still remain. This is what separates believers and non believers. The physical and spiritual.

And this is also reflected in Revelation when we return to God and his original plan is restored.

Revelation 21:23
And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.



posted on Nov, 27 2010 @ 11:01 AM
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Personally, I'm still wandering which creation story is held as true, the one in Genesis 1:1-2:3, or the one in Genesis 2:4-25.



posted on Nov, 27 2010 @ 11:44 AM
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reply to post by Blue_Jay33
 
Blue_Jay33,

There is nothing impossible or wrong with creations story, there was light the first day, grass the third day and the fourth the sun to keep the grass trees etc. to keep it going. He created the grass and then the dark portion of the next, the fourth and then the sun the light portion just as happens continually so what's the problem. It just had to endure aprox. 12 hrs. darkness as it had to continue to do from then on each 24 hr. day. God was never screwed up, it's we who have to get things lined up.

Truthiron.



posted on Nov, 27 2010 @ 11:53 AM
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I think the answer you are looking for can be found here : "And God said, Let there be light,and there was light."

And what is light??? Light=Energy.

Here is a quote :

In an old documentary film taken in the laboratory at the International Institute of Biophysics, Dr. Popp opens a chamber about the size of a bread box. He places a fresh cutting from a plant and a wooden match in a plastic container inside the dark chamber and closed the light proof door. Immediately he switches on the photomultiplyer and the image shows up on a computer screen. The match stick is black while the green, glowing silhouette of the leaves is clearly visible. Dr. Popp exclaims, "We now know, today, that man is essentially a being of light."




In 1976, they were ready for their first test with cucumber seedlings. The photomultiplier showed that photons, or light waves, of a surprisingly high intensity were being emitted from the seedlings. In case the light had to do with an effect of photosynthesis, they decided that their next test -- with potatoes -- would be to grow the seedling plants in the dark. This time, when the seedlings were placed in the photomultiplier, they registered an even higher intensity of light. What's more, the photons in the living systems they'd examined were more coherent than anything they'd ever seen.


And here is the link : Click me

After you read that article draw your own conclusion.


Peace
edit on 27-11-2010 by Seed76 because: no reason



posted on Nov, 29 2010 @ 07:25 PM
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The sun was in fact created AFTER vegetation in the bible. But don't worry, there was a "magical light" before that would still make plants survive. Magic \o/

Well, either way, the sun was created AFTER earth...and we know for a fact that's not what happened so it's blatantly obvious that genesis is wrong.



posted on Nov, 29 2010 @ 08:28 PM
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reply to post by Blue_Jay33
 


I can't believe you're sticking to this gun. I can't believe I didn't notice this thread until now.


Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
That may sound like a stupid question but....


Yes, it's very stupid because it's making me into a straw man and belaboring a point that I've refuted repeatedly.



Recently I had a very unpleasant exchange with a hardcore atheist


Yes, I'm hardcore, I really, really, really don't believe in god!....wait, that doesn't make any sense.

Also, I didn't introduce the unpleasantness, I recall (and can reference) that you began calling me a troll without even addressing my arguments.



that claimed that most Christians believe the Sun was created after vegetation or grass.


Boom, lie!

I never said anything about what individuals believe. I didn't say most, some, any, half, two thirds, three eighths, or any other percentage of Christians believe that. I said it is what is in the Bible.

Oh, and it's really dishonest for you to not mention my name, lie about me, and then not provide my side of the story or at least a link to the material in question.



He says the bible teaches that, I disagreed.


And then I systematically dismantled your argument, all the way to the point where I referenced the original Hebrew writings and took apart the first 19 verses of Genesis.



I found that some fundamentalist actually do believe this.


Well, it is what the Bible says.



If your a Christian please relate what YOU believe on this matter.


you're
I'm sorry, but you've lost the level of courtesy and restraint that I have for people who don't lie. I'm going to start correcting your spelling and grammar.



Personally I believe God created our solar systems


system's



Sun in the context of Genesis 1:1 embedded within the "Heavens" many millions of eons ago.


Except that there's absolutely no way for you to support that claim scripturally and there is a specific instance of the Sun being created in the fourth day in Genesis.




SCOFIELD REFERENCE NOTES

The new beginning - the first day: light diffused Let there be light Neither here nor in verses 14-18 is an original creative act implied. A different word is used. The sense is, made to appear; made visible. The sun and moon were created "in the beginning." The "light" of course came from the sun, but the vapour diffused the light. Later the sun appeared in an unclouded sky.



I already refuted this, something akin to NUCLEAR WINTER would result from the sun being 'diffused' for so long.



NOTE: This thread is for Christians that believe in creation to give their honest opinions, and not for atheists to hijack it.


I'm sorry, but that is something that is exclusionary and I cannot abide by ignorance.
And to top it all off, you lied, so nuts to your exclusionary positions. You were also indirectly deceitful by providing only a single side of the story. For the sake of honesty, below is a quote of my post (this is the third separate thread I've placed this in, stop ignoring it)

I have right of response in this case, I'm not hijacking when you refuse to show my side of the story.

 


The original post can be found here


Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by Blue_Jay33
 



Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


The bible does not say grass was created before the creation of the Sun & Moon, your interpretation is clearly wrong.


1: Saying my 'interpretation' is wrong doesn't make it wrong.
2: I'll quote Genesis from the beginning and point out where it actually says that grass was created before the Sun and Moon.

From Genesis


1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.


Ok, we have a space known as 'heaven' and a space known as Earth/



1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.


Ok, so everything is dark...



1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.


Boom, out of nowhere: light! What a great idea...too bad a light source isn't given yet....it's just...light.



1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.


God is awfully pleased with himself, decides to separate light from darkness....but still not a light source in sight.



1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.


Alright...day and night pass without....the sun...

Well, I guess you're saying they're epochs written metaphorically as days.



1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.


...and there's no such thing as a 'firmament', so let's just toss that passage right out.



1:7 And God made the firmament and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.


Again, no 'firmament'.



1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.


So the sky is Heaven...capital H, not lowercase h.



1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.


Well, this also contradicts what we know about the Earth's formation...



1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.


Alright, now we have dry land and wet sea...but no...nope, nowhere do we have the the Sun or Moon.



1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.


We have vegetation...at least vegetation as it was known to the cultures of the fertile crescent.



1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.


God seems pretty good at all of this, even if he's getting the order wrong


.
1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.


Alright, three days in, no light source but we somehow have a marked passage of time without light sources.



1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:


Ok, I guess this means stars. Which are definitely a lot more important than just 'lights in the sky', being pretty much the same as our own Sun...



1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.


So where was the light coming from before?



1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.


Well, there are several problems.
1: The Sun isn't a 'great light', it's a close 'light'...and by light it's really a self-sustaining fusion reaction.
2: The Moon isn't a 'light', it's a giant reflector
3: This is the very first mention of the Sun



1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,


So they're in the firmament...which is around the Earth...which means this is a geocentric model...which is even more wrong.



1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.


Pleased with himself again.



1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.


And there we have it, the Sun came about on the fourth day and it is in the firmament which is around the Earth

The Bible seems to fail awfully hard at science and we aren't even 500 words into it.



Vegetation couldn't grow without the sun anyway, that really does defy science.


Which is why the Bible is wrong on the issue.



The planet would be colder than Pluto, a frozen wasteland unable to support no life whatsoever.


Yes, which is why the Bible is wrong. It seems to not know that the Sun is the source of heat and light in our Solar System.



It refers to the light from the described heavenly bodies that were preexisting.
I have already explained it.


No, you simply stated that the Sun is preexisting, even though I pointed out that the Sun is created along with the Moon on the fourth day.

Light is preexistent, but heavenly bodies which produce light are not brought about until the fourth day.



That whole argument is asinine, and you know it.


Yeah, which is why I'm wondering why you're sticking to it. I mean, I've repeatedly shown you that you're wrong, yet you seem to have some sort of 'anti-evidence' filter on your computer. I even took the quotes from Genesis verse by verse now. There's no way you can deny my claims when I've demonstrated them in detail repeatedly, to the ridiculous point that I took Nearly 500 words of Genesis and broke them down.

 


Now, if you'd like to provide a counter-interpretation, go a.. But don't simply say mine is wrong. I hope for at least the level of detail I went into in your counter-interpretation before you dismiss mine.
edit on 23/11/10 by madnessinmysoul because: Formatting and a bit of extra text


 


Then I added the following after being simply accused of trolling. The original can be found here


Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by edmc^2
 


The difference between light in those verses? I thought I already differentiated the two...I guess I'll recourse to Hebrew then.

Because, you know, a troll often researches and posts sources when people object to claims.
I started out here then I used the handy-dandy "C" button to get the Hebrew words.

In Genesis verse 3 the word for light is: 'owr
From here


Part of Speech: feminine noun

Biblical Usage:
1) light
a) light of day
b) light of heavenly luminaries (moon, sun, stars)
c) day-break, dawn, morning light
d) daylight
e) lightning
f) light of lamp
g) light of life
h) light of prosperity
i) light of instruction
j) light of face (fig.)
k) Jehovah as Israel's light


Usage of this word as 'the sun' is restrained to only a single passage in the whole Bible, and it isn't Genesis.


2Sa 23:4 And [he shall be] as the light of the morning, [when] the sun riseth, [even] a morning without clouds; [as] the tender grass [springing] out of the earth by clear shining after rain.


In each case in Genesis when the 'sun' is referenced as a light the word ma'owr is used.
From here


Part of Speech: masculine noun

Biblical usage: 1) light, luminary


So an entirely different word is used between the two, that's what the difference is. Hell, one is a masculine noun and the other is a feminine noun.

But I guess Blue_Jay33 is right, I'm just a troll.

edit on 29/11/10 by madnessinmysoul because: (no reason given)

edit on 29/11/10 by madnessinmysoul because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 29 2010 @ 08:32 PM
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Originally posted by RuneSpider
Personally, I'm still wandering which creation story is held as true, the one in Genesis 1:1-2:3, or the one in Genesis 2:4-25.
I think the form of Genesis 2 was written in a style reminiscent of similar creation stories of neighboring countries, where while it may have seemed a good enough explanation at the time, later it became evident that with the changing of the times, too many unanswered questions arose that made it somewhat obsolete. The story was written again in a way which addressed those new questions while not being too contradictory to the older version.
edit on 29-11-2010 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 30 2010 @ 03:01 PM
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I tend to think that the spiritual realms were created first, then the physical. The first light created was not the sun but that "unique" spiritual light that the author of the Gospel of John spoke about in John 1:1-13. Jesus discusses this light with Nicodemus more in depth in Chapter 3 saying that people don't want to come into the light because when you do your deeds are exposed. Even Yah himself , asked Job if he knew the way to the "abode of light."

I've read thousands of near death experiences, and though no two experiences are the same, the vast majority report being drawn like a magnet, into a tunnel, then propelling at speeds beyond belief to the light. Even the Prophet Daniel was told, that one day knowledge would increase from people travelling to and fro. The man was having the most spiritual events of his life with angels etc from other wordly dimensions and realms.

In Kabbalah there are three schools of thought, one is the School of Hillel (earth created first), one the School of Shammai (heavens created first) or that they were created concurrently. I am not a practioner of kabbalah but I have used it as a resource, when I'm looking for a deeper meaning to something I read in the Bible.

Like I said, I tend to think that all things were made in their spiritually perfected form first and everything in the physical are mere patterns . Both vibrate at much different frequecies. The further away from the source (God) the lower the vibration and the denser the matter gets.. If you consider how radiation decays, as it moves away from it's source, and apply that to the human life (from the moment you take your first breath you begin to die) and the fact that the physical universe is expanding it explains a lot - like we are only getting half of the picture.

Look at a single blade of grass. To make it grow and to sustain it's luster you need the perfect combo of darkness, soil, light, water & oxygen. Too much or too little of one or the other and you got ugly grass. Now consider the same single blade of grass, that many people have reported seeing on the other side in it's perfected form. They claim that the grass is just amazing. Each blade is if it has jewels embedded within it. From that one simple statement much can be learned. Even the elements and minerals in the physical were once in a perfected state. Everything in the physical that we know is like scattered and broken but all the way back from the point of origination (God) there was and is complete harmony. If "time" it'self is a trajectory from God and he owns the path, it becomes so easy to see how he can show one things that will not only happen in the future but can also hit the "replay" button and show someone their entire past, when they get back to the perfected state - in the abode of light.

I'm totally fascinated by what people report at the moment of death. Most say they just suddenly find themselves floating up in a corner of the room. After reading it so many times you start to wonder - exactly what is it that rises out of the physical? Some people report you are all "mind", others report you're a see - through type essence. Not relying solely on testimony from people who have died and come back, but factor in nurses and doctors reporting a vapour of sorts coming out of people at the moment of death. Even James, the brother of Jesus stated that our lifes are a "mist" that are here for a little while, then vanishes.

I find the tunnel aspect of the Near Death Experience even more fascinating. It's as if, at the very moment a person comes to the realization they are outside their body dead but still alive - a portal opens and the tunnel suddenly comes into view. The reports are almost all the same - you are pulled in like a magnet, a pin dot of light appears, you travel very fast until you arrive at the light. Some people report being escorted by beings (of light) and others recall seeing others in the tunnel, some hanging back deliberately and some .ed back the other way. It's just a guess, but what makes sense to me, is that what these people are reporting fit like hand and glove to how a black hole operates.

Who knows? Maybe all the chemicals, elements and minerals etc themselves recycle in a black hole back to their perfected state - which in it's entirety emits the true light of God. It surely would explain what people are reporting, like crystal cities, streets of gold, transparent glass like structures, the precious jewels that make up the foundations of the Heavenly Jerusalem, and the very throne descriptions themselves.

Sun created after vegetation? Everything is fragmented in the physical and everthing perfected in the spiritual.
edit on 30-11-2010 by Myrtales Instinct because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 30 2010 @ 03:27 PM
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Originally posted by Myrtales Instinct
I've read thousands of near death experiences, and though no two experiences are the same, the vast majority report being drawn like a magnet, into a tunnel, then propelling at speeds beyond belief to the light. Even the Prophet Daniel was told, that one day knowledge would increase from people travelling to and fro. The man was having the most spiritual events of his life with angels etc from other wordly dimensions and realms.



This can be explained through brain chemistry. A dying brain can play amazing tricks on the mind.

I've had my heart stop twice, and almost died 5 times so far...once at birth when my umbilical cord strangled me (heart stopped), one diving accident (stopped breathing, heart rate dropped to "critical levels" according to the medic who saved my life), another drowning incident because I got overconfident (stopped breathing for 2min), a snowboard accident where I managed to cut an artery on my leg (red snow...can't remember much, but I saw pictures of the spot where I collapsed...didn't know humans could lose that much blood and live), and meningitis (heart stopped).

Every single time was different. When I had meningitis, the doctors made my parents sign an "organ donor" form because they said my chances of survival were very slim. When my heart stopped, the doctors tried to reanimate me and almost gave up after a few tries...if my parents wouldn't have insisted that they try a few more times, I'd be dead. The thing is, during the time I was dead, there was no "me", at least not that I can remember. It wasn't as if my "soul" was just moving on...not trying to scare you, just saying that I wouldn't trust the people who claim they were with dead relatives. Having said that, I never felt uncomfortable while I was "gone".

Fun fact: I saw "lights" before my heart stopped when I had meningitis. But given the amount of drugs I was on, I'm not really surprised...and many people who died and then come back to tell stories were also on a significant amount of drugs. In short, everyone would see lights at that point


Anyway, it's only logical that "believers" start "seeing things" when they die. The mind is a powerful thing and can play tricks on you. If I had to explain it, dying feels a bit like dreaming once your not consciously perceiving things anymore.



posted on Nov, 30 2010 @ 04:09 PM
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Dude, that is some serious bad luck.

My sons umbilical cord about did him in too - he recalls nothing either. My older sister coded 2 years ago and had no experience - even though she was baptized into the Lord as a child, she has other experiences during the broad daylight that have her grounded firmly in her faith.

The dying are not the only ones reporting phenomena, the living are as well.



posted on Nov, 30 2010 @ 04:14 PM
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reply to post by Myrtales Instinct
 


Even belief can be explained




As for my bad luck...I'd prefer to call it "good luck"




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