CHINA TELLS AMERICA: Turn Around The USS George Washington

1. Having the option of forcefully overthrowing your government does not make you superior to any other nation. Americans talk about their liberties and freedoms, they voted in Obama to restore them. Why were there no protests against Bush about these things, and why have there been no protests against Obama while he has failed to restore the constitution? The American population seems either too lazy or too disinterested to make a stand on anything unless they can do it from their couch.

2. Hundreds of nations have overthrown their governments without the "right to bear arms". If the protest is loud enough, large enough, and forceful enough any so-called democratic government would have to capitulate in the eyes of the rest of the democratic world.

3. This drill is to be conducted in international waters. China knows that it is not going to be attacked by America. They are making these noises to dissuade provocation. It is not about them, it is about preventing NK from finding any excuse to fire anything in "perceived" defense. They are simply concerned that this will allow NK to act. They know for a fact that America is not going to cancel these exercises because China suggests it. They simply have to issue these statements to be a good neighbor.

4. It is the responsibility of the NK people to overthrow their government. As it should have been the responsibility of the citizens of Iraq and Afghanistan to overthrow their own governments.

5. SK has a right to engage in military exercises with any nation it wishes. If her neighbors don't like it, tough.

6. The major problem in this scenario is the fact that NK, SK and America all have their backs against the wall. SK has categorically stated that they will attack NK in defense if so much as a rowdy fart blows their way from the North. NK has stated that they will attack if SK makes any military moves. America has stated that they will defend their ally. China, so far, has chosen the correct course of action and stayed out of choosing a side or making any statement it cannot back out of. They have been the wisest party in all of this IMO.
They will not look weak if they choose to do nothing, and they will not be forced into a confrontation.

The only good signs we've seen so far is that NK didn't again respond when SK took defensive action. And SK managed to fortify the island since the bombing without NK responding. Technically, as the two sides are still at war, it wouldn't be beyond the pale for NK to see that build-up of troops as an aggression.
It might not be right or fair considering they started it, but it could be viewed as an escalation for SK to be fortifying that island. And yet NK didn't take any action against it.

That's possibly a sign that NK doesn't really intend to continue on this path.

However it is analyzed, one thing is for certain, China isn't making any statements that it cannot back out of. And I think they are taking the right course of action.
If China states that it will do something, then be concerned, until then they are simply making wise political statements to avoid upsetting anyone too severely.

Originally posted by Endure

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by Endure

 

What a biased response..
Maybe China and NK should hold war games off the Florida coast and see what response they get from the US..

Edit..BTW, these war games were arranged BEFORE the last incedent so that is moot..

edit on 27-11-2010 by backinblack because: (no reason given)

Yes, very biased. Biased against those who defend murderous dictatorships like they are the best thing since Pringles. Why aren't you all flocking to these places like NK to live again?

Biased against murderous dictatorships... You cannot be for real.. Remmever it was a democary that used the H bomb. It was a demcoracy that went into Iraq and killed and tortued more people than the regime it replaced..
Some peeps need to get off there high throne and see reality for what it is..
kx

Originally posted by Endure

Originally posted by snowen20
reply to post by Endure

 

When and how can we change this country?
Second.

By elections. And if that fails, and the government does not abide by the constitution, we have the right to remove them by force. If we fail to use these solutions to remedy the problem, we are every bit as much to blame as them, period.

"if that fails"????????? After voting for G W not once but twice and now Obama you still say "if"????

Maybe it's time to check what's in your water?

I think the circumstances give SK and it's allies every reason to both practice and display their might to NK. The Chinese should not be interfering in my opinion. The exercise is off the coast of SK near the boarder of NK waters. How one declares this to be Chinas "exclusive" trade waters is not clear to me.

I think, if say, Honduras shelled Cuba, Cuba would be within it's rights to run an exercise off their cost in an attempt to display their readiness to defend or engage in reaction to continued attacks on their lands. If an ally wanted to join them, more power to them!

The important thing here is not that we attack NK. We need to make a big enough scene that the people of NK see that we are not backing down, in order to undercut the effectiveness of this attempt to bolster Kim Jung-Un's bid for power.

The Chinese are trying assist him in fooling his people into thinking he is some heroic anti-western military master so that they don't have to deal with the mess if NK falls into revolt. The whole thing is a show for the NK people, to intimidate them into accepting the continuation of the most failed regime in the region.

reply to post by backinblack


Wait Wait wait...........so NK shoots missles INTO SK territory, Kills some of its citizens and military, leaves others homeless, and its the US fault because we might instigate something for having war games.......THAT WEVE ALWAYS HAD with SK?

Do you even comprehend how contrived that even sounds?

Its not the US fault, or anyone elses fault besides NK if war breaks out.......if they werent sinking ships and launching missiles into other countries that crap wouldnt happen........

Seriously.....the though process of some people completely dumbfound me

reply to post by purplemer

Yes Murderous regime.............here is a taste


Famine in North Korea

More on how the Gov solves the problem

North Korean Work Camps

I could go on all day, or you could do your own research........or ask some of the others flooding OUT of North Korea when they can get away with it, without getting caught and killed by North Korean military or sent to work camps for the rest of their lives......

I think we have to be careful here they China is flexing its muscle and wants to calm the situation only to prevent a possible ally of their own to going to War... the North has not much to lose he already is claiming to stand down from the throne and let his son take over he will do it .. I have no doubt about it ... one more time of old times sake ... every ruler wants to be in the history book ... he will just happen to be one of them ... I mean the traiing excersise is for what would happen if they fight right ... seems they lil pissed off about that... it is kinda like staning next to the cliff apart from your enemy on the other side and mooning them saying ...Kiss this ...and turning and tattleing there swords ... not a very smart idea when the enemy clearly already done fired upon a town and has no problem doing it...heck this day and age it not worth it to bow up next to a known enemy and say aye we could beat you this time .. and here is how ....

reply to post by purplemer


Which democracy used an H bomb? To my knowledge, no nation has ever used an H bomb in a hostile fashion toward another nation. The U.S. dropped two atomic bombs on Japan in 45, but they were small potatoes in comparison to an H bomb. Fusion bombs are much much more destructive. The biggest H bomb that was ever detonated was the Tsar Bomba. The Soviets dropped it in the Artic circle and I believe it stands as the largest nuclear explosion to date.

These should help if you're unsure about the differences.
inventors.about.com...


www.globalsecurity.org...

Looks like GW is enjoying Thanksgiving in the South China Sea . . . Sorry the Chinese didn't show up . . . they could have at least brought cranberry sauce . . . China, just another paper tiger . . . they couldn't ship there cheap defective goods without sea lanes kept open by the USA . . . better not bite the hand that feeds you . . . those shipping lanes can be closed sooner rather than later . . .

Thanksgiving in the South China Sea

The way I see it, IF N.K wars with the S.K then the American/S.K forces will weaken the N.K shortly followed by a Chinese spearhead directly into N.K which from then, they will occupy.

Re: China strengthens ties with Russia. and the North Korea connection. (Selected applicable to thread)

Origin China: 36 Stratagems of war.

1)Befriend a distant state while attacking a neighbour (遠交近攻／远交近攻, Yuǎn jiāo jìn gōng)

It is known that nations that border each other become enemies while nations separated by distance and obstacles make better allies. When you are the strongest in one field, your greatest threat is from the second strongest in your field, not the strongest from another field. This policy is associated with Fan Sui of Qin, circa 269 BC.

2)Entice the tiger to leave its mountain lair (調虎離山／调虎离山, Diào hǔ lí shān)

Never directly attack an opponent whose advantage is derived from its position. Instead lure him away from his position thus separating him from his source of strength.

3)Loot a burning house (趁火打劫, Chèn huǒ dǎ jié)

When a country is beset by internal conflicts, when disease and famine ravage the population, when corruption and crime are rampant, then it will be unable to deal with an outside threat. This is the time to attack.

I believe what will end up happening is China will take power of North Korea if we get to the point of War. It will be a shock but rather than allowing the USofA to be so close to China (The North Korean buffer). China will "help" the US and South Korea but will control the North in the end to maintain the buffer.

reply to post by detachedindividual


I agree with your points except one.

It might not be right or fair considering they started it

This is a matter of opinion depending on when you place the starting point. NK had a boundary forced upon them that is patently unfair and designed to give advantage to SK both militarily and economically. The UN (read US) had no right to impose this on NK. The line that they (NK) say should be the boundary seems reasonable. It is for this reason that the area is disputed and any activity can be seen as provocation by either side.

reply to post by PuterMan


You can't ignore history, North Korea started it, so they made their own bed, but they don't want to sleep in the bed. North Korea, is China's puppet and this is nothing more than muscle flexing by China. They already control N. Korea, they want the rest of the peninsula . . . IMHO

History of Korean War

reply to post by mel1962


Who is ignoring history? I was merely commenting that the North Koreans feel pushed into a corner, and they might well do since the apportionment of the boundary is patently grossly unfair. This has nothing to do with who started it.

If you think you can corner an animal and get away with it try it. And your US bravado in your thanksgiving post rings very hollow with those who are not of US origins. Better that they took that mountain of food and distributed some of it to the starving NK people. I am not supporting the NK leaders, and I am certainly no way in hell supporting the US leaders and their obvious agenda.

I just wish Mexico would invite the Chinese to war games in the Gulf.

Edit: Here, have a flavour of NK propaganda.

without sea lanes kept open by the USA

Perhaps you would be so kind as to clarify which sea-lanes are being kept open by the US?

By the way from the Wikipedia article you linked to:

The war was a result of the political division of Korea by agreement of the victorious Allies at the conclusion of the Pacific War.

Mmmmmm.........................Methinks that might have been the US then foisting THEIR idea of what should happen on to other again?

reply to post by PuterMan


NK = Chinese Puppet (Where do you think they got their Nuclear Technology from???)

Anybody having sympathy for that crazy despotic dictator who starves his people and acts only in the benefit of his own family and the Chinese Government I have got to question your judgment on this issue!

Sorry, but you don't have a leg to stand on this issue and I could not more strongly disagree with you this matter!

You do realize you are defending Kim Jong-il?????

reply to post by mel1962

Sorry, but you don't have a leg to stand on this issue and I could not more strongly disagree with you this matter!

You do realize you are defending Kim Jong-il?????

I never said I had any sympathy for the NK regime. Perhaps you could point out where I said that? Maybe before responding to posts you should read them? Unlike you it seems, I do have some sympathy for the NK people.

You have chosen to ignore the question about the shipping lanes. Why? Because you cannot back that up?

reply to post by PuterMan


No. 1 re-read your previous post, you did express sympathy for NK regime, because the people are not with that idiot Kim Jun Il! He is the one starving, they could care less about being in North Korea they want to live like the South Koreans . . . like having enough food to eat . . . good schools . . . good medical . . . oh yeah, FREEDOM!

No. 2 the US controls all main commerce shipping lanes and can close them as well . . . The US Navy is committed to free and open commerce of the shipping lanes and more specifically those that involve strategic goods such as Oil!

there's 2 ways to respond to China,

A. do this warships duties a very great distance from the mainlands of NK & China, in a
distant part of the South China Sea.


B. give China the ability to 'monitor' if the missiles and nuclear arsenals on the USS Washington are
ever actually activated. Jet fighters have the onboard ability to be warned when an enemy jet has armed its missiles...are you telling me that the Chinese don't have that electronic surveillance capibility...
next, let the global community be informed of the open electronic surveillance (Un-Jammed) status, that will allow China to know that no covert attack is underway.


C. which is inconceivable; would be for the Super-Power to concede to the China demand, under threat of
using their economic leverage against the USA.

reply to post by mel1962

No. 1 re-read your previous post, you did express sympathy for NK regime, because the people are not with that idiot Kim Jun Il! He is the one starving, they could care less about being in North Korea they want to live like the South Koreans . . . like having enough food to eat . . . good schools . . . good medical . . . oh yeah, FREEDOM!

If you are not capable of understanding the distinction between understanding where someone is coming from and supporting them then perhaps you should not be commenting. At no time did I express any sympathy for the North Korean regime. I challenge you to show me where I did. You on the other hand denigrate the Korean and Chinese peoples with your derogatory remarks.

You might also take the time to read and understand the document to which you linked. The American administration divided up Korea and to a very great extent much of the blame devolves upon the USA in their handling of things. The drawing of the boundaries to specifically exclude the crab fishing grounds was a device to ensure that the NK leadership was put under pressure so the US thought but unfortunately they (the US) have never learned the lesson that sanctions never work and only harm the populace and not the leaders.

No. 2 the US controls all main commerce shipping lanes and can close them as well . . . The US Navy is committed to free and open commerce of the shipping lanes and more specifically those that involve strategic goods such as Oil!

I would like to point out to you that the commerce shipping lanes are in International waters. The US does NOT control them, despite the fact that it's citizens may mistakenly think that it does, but I am sure that the US Government is only too aware that to close shipping lanes in International waters would be an act of Piracy. Maybe you should research International Maritime Law before making such glib statements of bravado.

reply to post by mel1962

NK = Chinese Puppet (Where do you think they got their Nuclear Technology from???)

Pretty sure it was from America, so who's puppets are they really??

reply to post by PuterMan

This is a matter of opinion depending on when you place the starting point. NK had a boundary forced upon them that is patently unfair and designed to give advantage to SK both militarily and economically. The UN (read US) had no right to impose this on NK. The line that they (NK) say should be the boundary seems reasonable. It is for this reason that the area is disputed and any activity can be seen as provocation by either side.

It wouldnt of mattered if the boundary ran north to south or east to west. A dictator is a dictator they all ways want more. NK has a lot of coast line just as much as SK with just as many areas for ports. This is of the leaders of NK own design not any others. But little kimmy wants war machines and men to run them instead of a working export import system.