The Ignorance of Creationists, page 1

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Topic started on 24-11-2010 @ 09:27 AM by madnessinmysoul

A while back there was a thread "The Gullibility of Evolutionists"

Well, I'd like to actually call into question the amount of education and research that the majority of creationists on here have with regard to the sciences.

I've heard questions about such easy to understand scientific concepts as:

The formation of atoms and different elements (easily explained through astrophysics)
The confusion between evolution and abiogenesis
The confusion between evolution and the Big Bang theory
Misinformed ideas concerning the Big Bang theory
A complete rejection of radiometric dating
And many, many more.

What's concerning is that this ignorance seems to be willful, that the sources that these people use are biased, entirely inaccurate, and sometimes outright laughable.

What's even more concerning than that is that the willful ignorance seems to extend to direct explanations of the scientific concepts, particularly the refusal to accept that evolution and abiogenesis are entirely different theories and that evolution deals solely with biodiversity.

I wonder how we can remedy this.

reply posted on 24-11-2010 @ 09:52 AM by PeasantRebellion

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
What's concerning is that this ignorance seems to be willful, that the sources that these people use are biased, entirely inaccurate, and sometimes outright laughable.

They need to stop talking smack about evolution at churches. They never even come close to getting it right, and I highly suspect that's purposeful. Again, a type of straw man argument. I had to walk out of a mega church once due to the guy proclaiming, "Evolution is like having a messy room and coming home to it magically clean all by itself!" As everyone applauds. Geniuses.

I wonder how we can remedy this.

No more churches? Not that I would ever advocate that.

How about we start looking at the creation story in a book full of parables as exactly that - a parable. Didn't anyone get the message to that story? Some possible theme interpretations include: Work hard, work well (lessons from the ruling class more than god but whatever), but don't forget to reconnect with the important things, even god needs downtime, etc...

To me the creation story is at best an obvious parable. What is the Bible? A holy guide to life from your creator, right? Christians, consider those stories in the Bible you already know to be lessons and parables. Now pretend they're not and try to make sense of them literally. Doesn't work, creates more questions than answers, makes the teller seem foolish... Sound familiar?

reply posted on 24-11-2010 @ 09:53 AM by TechUnique

I don't claim to be an expert on the matters but from what I have researched and a lot from personal experience these are my conclusions;

- Evolution does happen to an extent however I believe not to the extent of us starting out in the sea then coming all the way to talking about this over the internet now.

- Evolution is FACT. It happens. Things evolve based on their environment. This is proven.

- Creationism I strongly believe in to an extent. I believe that something/someone come and set down the genetics for physical life. Who is this? I haven't got a clue. Do I have any evidence? No. Am I trying to force my views on anyone? No. Therefore am I ignorant? Not in the slightest.

Why do I hold these beliefs? Because I consider myself a British equivalence of a Shaman and have seen things for myself. Doesn't mean I am right or you are wrong. Although I strongly believe I am right and you are most likely wrong. (If you believe in Evolution to the extent of crawling out of the see and talking in depth like this over the internet, eating packaged food and all the rest)

Just for the record, I am NOT religious in any way shape or form. Although I am VERY spiritual.

Believe what you want, that is the beauty of the human consciousness, whoever/whatever gave it to us, even if they didn't

Edit to add: PLEASE make sure you do not get me twisted, I am not saying anyone is wrong or stupid. I value other peoples opinions and keep an extremely open mind. And please do not call me religious. I despise religion, not religious people.

DO NOT GET ME TWISTED.

edit on 26/10/2010 by TechUnique because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 24-11-2010 @ 10:00 AM by PeasantRebellion

Originally posted by TechUnique

I'm not sure that you count as a Creationist, actually. I mean, not the Creationists that I was referring to anyway. Can't speak for the OP. I think more people should adopt that kind of fluidity to their belief system that you have.

reply posted on 24-11-2010 @ 10:03 AM by seedofchucky

the ops post = scientism at its finest. Its a dirty little sickness.

reply posted on 24-11-2010 @ 10:07 AM by Nightfury

I for one do believe God created the heaven and the earth. I do believe that evolution exist, BUT I believe in micro-evolution, That animals and humans adapt/evolve to better survive in their inviroment. We get a dog that came from a wolf for instance, same "family", not new species.
I DO NOT belive in macro evolution where a human came from a monkey.
Just because we are like 98% the same, doen't mean we are monkeys (although we act that way sometimes

)
A Watermelon consists of 98% Water and we humans of 97%, does that mean I'm only 1% away from being a watermelon? Ofcourse not, so even though we might only differ 1% or 2%, doen not make us the same.
Micro- evolution does exist, Macro- evolution..... not so much..
Mutations.... yes,,, but if it's not suitable to survive, it will die shortly after birth and will not be able to multiply, If it does survive, we might come across it as a "new species", but that is not evolution.

edit on 24-11-2010 by Nightfury because: Typo

edit on 24-11-2010 by Nightfury because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 24-11-2010 @ 10:07 AM by TechUnique

Originally posted by PeasantRebellion

Originally posted by TechUnique

I'm not sure that you count as a Creationist, actually. I mean, not the Creationists that I was referring to anyway. Can't speak for the OP. I think more people should adopt that kind of fluidity to their belief system that you have.

Ok fair enough, I problem shouldn't have posted

And thanks, I'll take that as a compliment ^^ Was expecting to get flamed to hell after my post.

Question to the OP: Are you talking about anyone who doesn't believe fully in Evolution or what? Can you please give a specific guideline to who you are calling Ignorant. I am rather confused.

Thanks.

reply posted on 24-11-2010 @ 10:09 AM by gandhi

"The point in a personal opinion based argument?"

Is what I would have called it.

It's hard to categorize all creationists, as is evolutionists.

As I always say,

Intentional or spontaneous, existence is a wonder of the ages.

reply posted on 24-11-2010 @ 10:10 AM by madnessinmysoul

reply to post by TechUnique

Originally posted by TechUnique
I don't claim to be an expert on the matters but from what I have researched and a lot from personal experience these are my conclusions;

Well, thank you for admitting that you have a level of incomplete knowledge on the issue.
I am also not an expert, but I've done a hell of a lot of research thanks to having to combat creationists on this forum.

- Evolution does happen to an extent however I believe not to the extent of us starting out in the sea then coming all the way to talking about this over the internet now.

Why? Why do you not believe that evolution can lead from simple marine life to complex, intelligent humans?

- Evolution is FACT. It happens. Things evolve based on their environment. This is proven.

And sexual pressures. And mutations. And thanks for admitting it happens.

- Creationism I strongly believe in to an extent. I believe that something/someone come and set down the genetics for physical life. Who is this? I haven't got a clue. Do I have any evidence? No. Am I trying to force my views on anyone? No.

Well, at least you admit you have no evidence and you're not trying to shove it down anyone's throat.

Therefore am I ignorant? Not in the slightest.

Well...sort of...
We're pretty sure that genetic can arise naturally. They are based on the most reactive chemical element, carbon. Unfortunately, the field of research relating to the natural formation of life, abiogenesis, is still in its youth

Why do I hold these beliefs? Because I consider myself a British equivalence of a Shaman and have seen things for myself. Doesn't mean I am right or you are wrong.

Alright, but personal experience has absolutely nothing to do with science...

Although I strongly believe I am right and you are most likely wrong. (If you believe in Evolution to the extent of crawling out of the see and talking in depth like this over the internet, eating packaged food and all the rest)

Why do you reject it? We have the tetrapod transitional fossils to show that life went from marine to land habitats.

Just for the record, I am NOT religious in any way shape or form. Although I am VERY spiritual.

Yes, but are you scientific? Are you rational? And are you educated in what you disagree with?

PLEASE make sure you do not get me twisted, I am not saying anyone is wrong or stupid.

Oh, I'm not calling anyone stupid either. I am saying that they're wrong if they disagree with established science without providing any proof, but they aren't stupid, they're misinformed.

I value other peoples opinions and keep an extremely open mind.

Just don't let it fall out.

And please do not call me religious. I despise religion, not religious people.

Will not call you religious.

edit on 24/11/10 by madnessinmysoul because: quote edit.

reply posted on 24-11-2010 @ 10:18 AM by TechUnique

reply to post by madnessinmysoul

Thanks for a semi civilised response.

In response to one of your most important questions I'm guessing;

What I have seen and experienced says a LOT more to me than what some fossils that someone says proves something. It only proves something to those that believe it.

Science has been proven wrong many times before therefore cannot be definitely defined as fact.

reply posted on 24-11-2010 @ 10:20 AM by NonKonphormist

Originally posted by TechUnique
(If you believe in Evolution to the extent of crawling out of the see and talking in depth like this over the internet, eating packaged food and all the rest)

There is evidence that whales started off as land mammals, if that's possible, why is it unlikely to have happened in reverse on a much larger scale over a longer period of time?

Peace.

www.pbs.org...

reply posted on 24-11-2010 @ 10:22 AM by madnessinmysoul

Originally posted by TechUnique
reply to post by madnessinmysoul

Thanks for a semi civilised response.

And thank you for your civilised responses. I do my best.

In response to one of your most important questions I'm guessing;

What I have seen and experienced says a LOT more to me than what some fossils that someone says proves something. It only proves something to those that believe it.

But we can actually use verifiable, testable, repeatable methods to back up those claims about fossils.

Science has been proven wrong many times before therefore cannot be definitely defined as fact.

No, "science" has never been proven wrong. Positions within science, established hypotheses and theories, have been proven wrong....by science.

reply posted on 24-11-2010 @ 10:24 AM by redoubt

reply to post by madnessinmysoul

What's concerning is that this ignorance seems to be willful, that the sources that these people use are biased, entirely inaccurate, and sometimes outright laughable. What's even more concerning than that is that the willful ignorance seems to extend to direct explanations of the scientific concepts, particularly the refusal to accept that evolution and abiogenesis are entirely different theories and that evolution deals solely with biodiversity. I wonder how we can remedy this.

You could begin by allowing people to believe as they choose.

It is not within your purview to make these choices for others. You may however, at your leisure, form your own opinions and share them as you please and for those interested, debate the subject. Just don't expect the human race to fall over itself beating a path to your pedestal.

reply posted on 24-11-2010 @ 10:33 AM by TechUnique

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Originally posted by TechUnique
reply to post by madnessinmysoul

Thanks for a semi civilised response.

And thank you for your civilised responses. I do my best.

In response to one of your most important questions I'm guessing;

What I have seen and experienced says a LOT more to me than what some fossils that someone says proves something. It only proves something to those that believe it.

But we can actually use verifiable, testable, repeatable methods to back up those claims about fossils.

Science has been proven wrong many times before therefore cannot be definitely defined as fact.

No, "science" has never been proven wrong. Positions within science, established hypotheses and theories, have been proven wrong....by science.

I understand your points and why you believe what you believe and why so many other people do. I do not think people are stupid for thinking this way.

I am sorry but I no longer wish to take part in this debate, It has been fun although not very productive and there is no point in both of us further banging our heads against each others brick walls

Nice talking to you and I hope to bump into you on ATS some other time, I'm going to add you as a friend.

You debate well my friend.

reply posted on 24-11-2010 @ 10:34 AM by madnessinmysoul

reply to post by redoubt

Originally posted by redoubt
You could begin by allowing people to believe as they choose.

They do have a choice between truth and falsehood. I'm not preventing that choice or advocating its prevention. I want to simply make sure more people go for scientific truth.

It is not within your purview to make these choices for others.

I'm not saying it is...but they're still wrong and I try to show them that they are.

You may however, at your leisure, form your own opinions and share them as you please and for those interested, debate the subject.

This is not a matter of opinions, this is a matter of education on matters. People come into a debate on the subject lacking basic foundations in very basic science. Not understanding that the theory of evolution have nothing to do with the Big Bang or the origins of life is a matter of facts, not opinions.

This is a forum that discusses science, not opinion. Science doesn't give a piece of flying excrement what your opinions are, it's ruled by a tyranny of evidence.

Just don't expect the human race to fall over itself beating a path to your pedestal.

Never said I was.

reply posted on 24-11-2010 @ 10:44 AM by Aggie Man

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
I wonder how we can remedy this.

First off, I completely agree with your OP. Now, as to the answer to the quote above, I think it's near impossible to remedy. Evolution is a complicated subject. One, in which, an individual must invest a significant amount of time to truly understand and accept as true. I never doubted evolution; however, even having a B.S. in biology, it took several semesters of various courses to fully understand the processes involved and to see the evidence clearly. Most doubters will never spend an hour investigating the truth of evolution; much less invest years of their life into it. For the most part, the people who deny evolution are the same crowd that deny anything that is printed in a textbook.

reply posted on 24-11-2010 @ 10:53 AM by redoubt

reply to post by madnessinmysoul

Dissecting my comment does not enhance your position nor does it in any way - whatsoever - support your apparent self-appointed position as doctrine/belief inquisitor.

You may find this shocking but... most people are quite capable of making up their minds and do not require, and will not accept, a self aggrandizing know-it-all.

You have helped no one, convinced no one and gained no followers. Your point is lost and made feeble because you won't listen to anyone that doesn't agree with you. The good, honest advice people offer is reduced to single sentences for your personal enjoyment. You become the butt of jokes told behind your back.

That is not a way to win hearts and minds, my friend.

Believe as you choose. That is your right. Do us all a favor and extend the same courtesy to the rest of the world. Keep your spoon to yourself.

Later.

edit on 24-11-2010 by redoubt because: Typos

reply posted on 24-11-2010 @ 11:06 AM by DrunkYogi