The Future of Europe, page 3
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reply posted on 3-7-2004 @ 11:39 AM by TenPin
Originally posted by FredT
On what are you basing the economic collapse of the US economy? Also given the pace of globalization don't you think that the worlds economies are going to become inceasingly dependant on each other? If one collapses it will have a ripple effect on each other. If the EU's on its way to becomming the economic superpower, then why does the EU kep changing the requirements for membership downward? Esp when some of its biggest members ie. France is struggling.


The USA effectively steals oil from the rest of the world to the tune of $350 million a day.

I can hear half of you gasp in disbelief and the other half of you shout in indignant outrage but I'm afraid it is true.

You can only buy oil for $US and guess who prints those. The average oil price for the last 6 months has been on average $6 higher than the 6 months before that, costing the USA an extra $24 billion. How can the USA afford to do this when it runs a $500 billion trade deficit you ask. Easy, by printing money in the form of US government bonds.

Aha but you say:

"Don't those dollars eventually get spent in the USA ?"

Nope. Almost all dollars spent abroad by the are reused as trading and reserve currency, especially for buying more oil because the dollar is still a universally accepted store of wealth.

The dollar is inexorably dropping in value because dollars are so abundant that they effectively represent no redeemable value in the country that issued them. The only reason the dollar hasn't crashed completely yet is because people can still spend their dollars in lots of places and they still think they can spend their dollars in the USA and get goods in return, which they can as long as everyone doesn't at the same time.

Every dollar that the USA prints out of thin air adds to their problem and will just make it all the more worse when it all comes crashing down:


1. USA prints money from thin air and buys oil and goods with it.
2. Value of dollar goes down because of over supply of dollars.
3. Oil price goes up so oil retailers can retain purchasing power in rest of the world.
4. USA's oil dependent economy goes into decline because of higher oil prices.
5. Economic decline causes value of dollar to decline more.
6. Higher oil price causes USA to print more dollars from thin air.
7. Back to 1.



This cycle has taken a strong hold in the last 4 years, made evident by the fact that the oil price has stayed exactly the same in Euros but the oil price in dollars has increased because the value of the dollar has decreased.

Eventually this cycle will go into a nosedive and all the people owning dollars will panic and sell leaving the USA with no ability to buy anything from the rest of the world and the biggest military in the world. Hmmmm I wonder what that would mean ?

Ahhh but you don't think this will ever happen because you are generally optimistic ?

There is the slight problem of peak oil production and the fact that 65% of the worlds remaining oil reserves are in the middle east. Why else does the USA have 140,000 troops stationed there.

I can confidently predict that the USA will never withdraw its troops from the middle east. After all, it went to such lengths to get them there in the first place. It didn't send them there to depose a corrupt dictator, that was just the excuse to get them there so they maintain a force in the region.

Still don't think it can happen ? Consider the rise of the EU as the new world economic superpower. Its not there yet obviously but even the fact that the Euro offers an alternative to the dollar as a currency that can store value and be spent among 400 million people means that people are starting to convert their dollars to Euros.

As soon as you can buy oil in Euros (which Iraq allowed in 2000 hmmm) the $US will be worth nothing.


A good article to read is the July newsletter by the Association for the Study of Peak Oil (ASPO).

Also read:

www.fromthewilderness.com...
www.currentconcerns.ch...
www.currentconcerns.ch...

A google search for "euro oil iraq" or "euro oil dollar" yields alot too.



reply posted on 3-7-2004 @ 05:01 PM by StrangeLands
Originally posted by 1Ting4SureWeAreNotAlone
Perhaps then Europe will have to invade the UK for its reserves just like another battle which is going on at present.

Yes, of course it will. You've uncovered the whole reason behind the EU - they just want to get their dirty European hands on our oil. We must immediately build an enormous wall around Dover and seed the English Channel with mines. That'll teach Johnny Foreigner!


The only problem being for Europe is that we have already developed our Nuclear Techniques.

Well, thank God for our "techniques". I'm sure that's all that's stopping Luxembourg from annexing Norfolk tomorrow.


I would like to see this thread continue on the subject it was originally designed for. EUROPE IS IT GOOD OR NOT?

No, I think you'll find the thread was started to discuss UK Wizard's ideas about alternatives. The first post is the clue.

... Meanwhile...

I don't think the oil thing is as important as it's being made out to be. As soon as supplies run low and profits are harder to come by, big business will turn to alternative energy. Before you know it, we'll be wondering what held up solar, wind and hydroelectric power for so long. We could switch to clean, sustainable energy tomorrow, if only we had the commitment and the investment.

Energy will, of course, be one of the defining issues of the next century, but I honestly don't see that either energy requirements, nor the energy market, will unduly influence the growth and consolidation of the EU.

The question about the EU being competition for the US is something else entirely...

Originally posted by UK Wizard
have a little faith in humanity, why don't you try and think of solutions instead of just problems for a change

Ah, you have learned much, young one. It's nice to see that optimism is still alive and well!

I've been thinking about some of your earlier posts, Wizard. You've stated several times that the EU might be good for Britain, if we wait 20 to 30 years. Can I ask why you think that? What will happen in the next generation that will make the EU a viable, enticing organisation?


reply posted on 23-8-2004 @ 08:46 PM by taibunsuu
Originally posted by TenPin
Originally posted by FredT
On what are you basing the economic collapse of the US economy? Also given the pace of globalization don't you think that the worlds economies are going to become inceasingly dependant on each other? If one collapses it will have a ripple effect on each other. If the EU's on its way to becomming the economic superpower, then why does the EU kep changing the requirements for membership downward? Esp when some of its biggest members ie. France is struggling.


The USA effectively steals oil from the rest of the world to the tune of $350 million a day.

I can hear half of you gasp in disbelief and the other half of you shout in indignant outrage but I'm afraid it is true.

You can only buy oil for $US and guess who prints those. The average oil price for the last 6 months has been on average $6 higher than the 6 months before that, costing the USA an extra $24 billion. How can the USA afford to do this when it runs a $500 billion trade deficit you ask. Easy, by printing money in the form of US government bonds.

Aha but you say:

"Don't those dollars eventually get spent in the USA ?"

Nope. Almost all dollars spent abroad by the are reused as trading and reserve currency, especially for buying more oil because the dollar is still a universally accepted store of wealth.

The dollar is inexorably dropping in value because dollars are so abundant that they effectively represent no redeemable value in the country that issued them. The only reason the dollar hasn't crashed completely yet is because people can still spend their dollars in lots of places and they still think they can spend their dollars in the USA and get goods in return, which they can as long as everyone doesn't at the same time.

Every dollar that the USA prints out of thin air adds to their problem and will just make it all the more worse when it all comes crashing down:


1. USA prints money from thin air and buys oil and goods with it.
2. Value of dollar goes down because of over supply of dollars.
3. Oil price goes up so oil retailers can retain purchasing power in rest of the world.
4. USA's oil dependent economy goes into decline because of higher oil prices.
5. Economic decline causes value of dollar to decline more.
6. Higher oil price causes USA to print more dollars from thin air.
7. Back to 1.



This cycle has taken a strong hold in the last 4 years, made evident by the fact that the oil price has stayed exactly the same in Euros but the oil price in dollars has increased because the value of the dollar has decreased.

Eventually this cycle will go into a nosedive and all the people owning dollars will panic and sell leaving the USA with no ability to buy anything from the rest of the world and the biggest military in the world. Hmmmm I wonder what that would mean ?

Ahhh but you don't think this will ever happen because you are generally optimistic ?

There is the slight problem of peak oil production and the fact that 65% of the worlds remaining oil reserves are in the middle east. Why else does the USA have 140,000 troops stationed there.

I can confidently predict that the USA will never withdraw its troops from the middle east. After all, it went to such lengths to get them there in the first place. It didn't send them there to depose a corrupt dictator, that was just the excuse to get them there so they maintain a force in the region.

Still don't think it can happen ? Consider the rise of the EU as the new world economic superpower. Its not there yet obviously but even the fact that the Euro offers an alternative to the dollar as a currency that can store value and be spent among 400 million people means that people are starting to convert their dollars to Euros.

As soon as you can buy oil in Euros (which Iraq allowed in 2000 hmmm) the $US will be worth nothing.


A good article to read is the July newsletter by the Association for the Study of Peak Oil (ASPO).

Also read:

www.fromthewilderness.com...
www.currentconcerns.ch...
www.currentconcerns.ch...

A google search for "euro oil iraq" or "euro oil dollar" yields alot too.


You mean, we didn't invade Iraq to set people free? You must be one of those people that hate freedom!

What's scarier than us actually invading them to preserve economic strength is if we actually lose the war, which by all accounts is happening. Interesting times ahead, my friends.

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