People continue to believe that we are either in or out of the EU why can't there be a third way in which we have european unity and our independence

Current EU prgress is going towards centralisation of power, but my idea would stop all the power becoming fcused in one place therefore stopping the creation of 'super state'

What I do not understand is why people keep saying that is EU is not working. It is the greatest thing this continent has ever created!
Europe was divided by CONSTANT wars for 2000 years, including 2 world wars and a cold war. Thats what we had when we were separated.

In only 15 years since the fall of berlin war ( the official end of communism and eastern block ) we have managed to unite the whole continent, raise the economy of eastern countries at an acceptable level, establish functional democracy there, bring one single currency in the EU which is now doing better then the almighty $, achieve a never before reached level of cooperation between countries regarding trade, economy, education, travel, fun, TV shows , laws, police, etc, etc. The consequence of all that is that another war between european countries is now impossible. I'd say that it is working quite well considering all the things we had to overcome.

Of course it is not perfect, there are a lot of things that can be improved. We are on the right path, though. Imagine where Europe will be in another 15 years.

Oh one more thing, the model of EU, the integration of former enemies and how good it worked, could be applied to Arab countries, it think it would solve most of big current issues there.

the thing is the EU is just one big pile of paper work, remember our cultures are very different and old feelings about some eurpean countries die hard.
Intergration now is far too soon, maybe in 100 to 200 years but not yet, my plan involves choosing what level and what type of intergration you want, the style of intergration will get us on more equal and friendly terms with our european brothers and sisters,
my plan will also silence the more extreme parties as they cannot complain about our independence being old away

[edit on 9-9-2004 by UK Wizard]

Originally posted by UK Wizard
the thing is the EU is just one big pile of paper work, remember our cultures are very different and old feelings about some eurpean countries die hard.
Intergration now is far too soon, maybe in 30 to 40 years but not yet, my plan involves choosing what level and what type of intergration you want, the style of intergration will get us on more equal and friendly terms with our european brothers and sisters,
my plan will also silence the more extreme parties as they cannot complain about our independence being old away

Oh I agree it is one big pile of paper work, but that pile is smaller then all the piles of independant countries combined together.
Actually the point is, although EU does have a lot of birocratic issues, certain rules and laws have been imposed on all countries equaly so that in certain points we now act as UNITY, while still preserving a huge level of national identity. We are not united as one, we are just united inspite of all our differences in the past and now.
If you let everyone chose the level of integration differently, we will again have same problems that we did in the past. This way, we have created a very stable basis. All nations had to compromise and sacrifice a few things, but IMO it was all worth it.
The only way to contain past animosities and conflicts is to take away their breeding ground. Thats what the EU has acomplished.

It's not the EU that has prevented wars in Europe. That's just a dangerous myth put about by federalists trying to scare people into joining up.

The EU has absolutely nothing to do with Europe's war free status. It's simply the modern global business environment. Every country is so heavily invested in every other country, it would be ridiculous to start a war. People move around more. We understand each other because of global media, the internet, foreign holidays etc. The people of Europe of have absolutely no wish or desire to conquer or subjugate each other.

THATS why Europe is peaceful. It's you, me and every other European that makes it that way, NOT the politicians.


---

UK Wizard, you're right. What we have at the moment, i.e. free trade and movement of people, is fine. Well, by that I mean there's a lot to fix, but it won't be fixed creating an even more powerful central structure.




[edit on 2-7-2004 by muppet]

muppet, I agree. I shuld have worded my post differently. I think it might be the language barrier lol, my first language is bosnian, the comes german and then english Of course I meant that it is people who created EU. I also stated the benefits of free trade, travel, one currency etc,etc. THAT has united people, united the EU, and created a secure enviroment, thats what I said.

The point is, you have to keep it that way. Although the people have united Europe, given the right circumstances and some new fad ( people are people, people follow fads ), if we do not have a stable basis for unity, it can fall apart. Thats why being european, a part of european union of equal countries, and reminding people just how cool all that is, is essential for survival of EU.
A stable basis is of course the economy and free trade but in real world you also gotta have a stable legal basis, laws and regulations, or it wil all fall apart. Now, I do admit that it was a golden oportunity for politicians to create a huge "pile of papers" and benefit from it, but in the end, it is the people who benefit the most.

The EU will replace the USA as the new economic superpower in the next 6 years. The USA's economy is finished and living on borrowed time.

The military imbalance is interesting and is the reason why we will see WW3 from 2010 onwards.

The reasons for this lie in peak oil & dollar hegemony. Theres such a vast amount of information on these subjects on the web that it should be obvious that dollar will be worth nothing in a few years.

Originally posted by TenPin
The EU will replace the USA as the new economic superpower in the next 6 years. The USA's economy is finished and living on borrowed time.

On what are you basing the economic collapse of the US economy? Also given the pace of globalization don't you think that the worlds economies are going to become inceasingly dependant on each other? If one collapses it will have a ripple effect on each other. If the EU's on its way to becomming the economic superpower, then why does the EU kep changing the requirements for membership downward? Esp when some of its biggest members ie. France is struggling.

Originally posted by paperclip
The point is, you have to keep it that way. Although the people have united Europe, given the right circumstances and some new fad ( people are people, people follow fads ), if we do not have a stable basis for unity, it can fall apart. Thats why being european, a part of european union of equal countries, and reminding people just how cool all that is, is essential for survival of EU.
A stable basis is of course the economy and free trade but in real world you also gotta have a stable legal basis, laws and regulations, or it wil all fall apart. Now, I do admit that it was a golden oportunity for politicians to create a huge "pile of papers" and benefit from it, but in the end, it is the people who benefit the most.

I understand your point paperclip, and as a Bosnian the issue of Unity must be particularly relevant to you.

I cannot imagine my own country and people suffering the kind of conflict at home that your people have endured. For that reason it is hard for me to truly appreciate some of the political and social benefits that the EU will bring, particularly in the Balkans, and some of the former Warsaw Pact Nations who have recently joined (hello latvia! ).

I hope the EU can work, but I worry that it will become too strong, too fast, and the voice of the people and the smaller counties will be lost.

Countries are around for a long time, and they take a long time to change. I think if we try to change too quickly, we will increase the risk of conflict, rather than reduce it. People will find it too easy to blame the the European government for everything, and I worry about seeing it break apart due to a rise in anti-EU nationalism.

Lets keep the important things.. the free trade, and free movement of people, but let the rest develop in it's own time.

there is a saying.... Rome wasn't built in a day!

..
btw you expressed yourself perfectly... any misunderstanding was on my part.

I think this very thread shows what kind of peaceful unity we currently have, we are dicussing the very future of europe in a logical manner, we should be proud of ourselves, 200 years ago we would be calling for military action to dispose of our so called enemies.
Even if the Governments of the EU and the member countries can't agree at least the people's of europe can live together peacefully.

The future no matter what path we take should be interesting...



(people should stop knocking American (ten pin) with out them we would have lost the cold war and Communism would currently be a virus spreading throught europe... remember we all live on the same planet

[edit on 2-7-2004 by UK Wizard]

I understand your point paperclip, and as a Bosnian the issue of Unity must be particularly relevant to you.
I cannot imagine my own country and people suffering the kind of conflict at home that your people have endured. For that reason it is hard for me to truly appreciate some of the political and social benefits that the EU will bring, particularly in the Balkans, and some of the former Warsaw Pact Nations who have recently joined (hello latvia! ).

That is very much true. I see the future of my country as a part of EU, thats the only way to stop future conflicts. What caused the conflict was the rise of nationalism ( I am Serb, I am Croat etc, etc ), the nationality became far more important then anything else. What we need is unity.

What really makes me angry sometimes is the constant bickering amongst politicians, latest example: who will be the next president of European Commision.
UK: gotta be one of ours, and deffinitely not the one France wants
France: neh, gotta be the one we want, you Britons don't have euro, so your guy cant be president
Germany: yeh, gotta be one of our guys
Random small country: just choose somebody, damnit!

I thought to myself " has any of these idiots thought about picking a guy who is most qualified for the job, regardless of the fact where he comes from??"
They are supposed to set an example of unity, instead they show the opposite.

The anti-EU parties use things like this to promote the ever popular "we wont let other country run our country" policy. They do not see them as european candidates, they see them as someone from another country and our highest representatives are not actually helping with their constant bickering.
A lot still has to be done to change the mentality of people, to make them realise that such divisions are the thing of the past. We need a positive additude, we have to emphasize good things and fix the bad ones, I think we all agree on that one.

Originally posted by paperclip
What really makes me angry sometimes is the constant bickering amongst politicians, latest example: who will be the next president of European Commision.
UK: gotta be one of ours, and deffinitely not the one France wants
France: neh, gotta be the one we want, you Britons don't have euro, so your guy cant be president
Germany: yeh, gotta be one of our guys
Random small country: just choose somebody, damnit!

A brilliant and accurate analysis!

We need a positive additude, we have to emphasize good things and fix the bad ones, I think we all agree on that one.

I certainly do agree with there... now all we have to figure out exactly HOW to fix it!! I wonder if any politicians read this?

[edit on 3-7-2004 by muppet]

I certainly do agree with there... now all we have to figure out exactly HOW to fix it!! I wonder if any politicians read this?

I have detailed the way to 'fix it', the multi alliance plan i propose is both pro-european and pro-independence


[edit on 9-9-2004 by UK Wizard]

The taxes will still rise.

People will still get poorer compared to those in a higher place in society.

The Scum will fight the wars that the politicians decide to undertake.

The bigger the country. The bigger the problems.

We wont be intouch with those who govern us.

We loose our indepent way of thinking as a small nation, because we rely on licking buttocks of the larger country's which have more pulling power in the essential voteing system.

Fraud already exist within europe but will exist on a much grander scale.

We will have less say in what goes on locally as well as nationally.

Opening our trade barriers will close others of the poorer nations making the 3rd world more like the 4th and 5th world.

Equality does not exist very well with capitalism. Let alone a "SUPER CAPITALIST FEDERAL STATE". of which the german chancellor has virtually already called the new european union.

Did adolf really loose the war? Now im not so sure? What do you think you should vote

Good post 1Ting,

And some provocative but valid points for people to consider before committing to something we may live to regret.

And all very good reasons why it really does matter who we choose to govern us. Sometimes smaller really is better.


[edit on 3-7-2004 by muppet]

over the coming years our very way of life will change for better or for worse... sometimes opposition is just sometimes it is not...

i believe that opposition to the EU is just...
the pro-EU believer's have argued their case, they say change will come, the EU will change for the better... yet it has not

We want change but we do not wish to be governed by a centralised super state... that is the current path we are taking

we need effect plans and solutions to our problems not more red tape and more centralisation... we want the world to see that europe is a just, free and fair collection of nations not a giant super state that seeks to influence all

I made the earlier points in this thread because unfortnate as it is. The paradox of living in a capitalist society is that it is by its very own nature a society which grows by greed.

Money, Money, Money. Buy, Buy, Sell and Sell thats all we hear. Long gone are the days when care in the community existed. Maggie put pay to that ideal in the UK when she came up with her divide and conquer plans against the miners.

This is just an extension of them plans if you ask me.

Joining the European Superstate is just away of putting all the different breeds of human in a cage together and watching them all tear each other apart. INSTEAD OF fighting against those who want to throw them all in the cage in the first place( the untouchables).

Anyone Agree?

turn the EU into a zoo

what are you getting at... how would you solve the european unity problem...

you arn't suggesting using communist idealogy are you
because that would be worse

[edit on 3-7-2004 by UK Wizard]

Originally posted by 1Ting4SureWeAreNotAlone


Joining the European Superstate is just away of putting all the different breeds of human in a cage together and watching them all tear each other apart. INSTEAD OF fighting against those who want to throw them all in the cage in the first place( the untouchables).

Anyone Agree?

hmmm I disagree. You are simplifiying the issue. We are not tearing eachother appart, we are doing the exact opposite of it. While I do agree that it is dangerous to put too much power in few hands, to centralize too much, I don't see it happening in Europe, we are not going in that direction, EU will not become some fascist super-state, it is not designed that way. We are united but we are not mindless drones blindly following orders, and not all politicians are out to create New Reich. It is people who created the Union in the first place, as stated before, the cooperation between the countries.
The "cage" we created is a mighty comfortable one, I think.
In fact, the EU could serve as a model for the rest of the world.
We are still separate states in a lot of things, local laws, police, regulations, national anthems, we all have separate goverments, ministers, football! lol, we all still have our own football teams and leagues , so a super-state with fascist tendencies is highly unilikely to happen.

All we have to do is to make sure that there are regulations which limit the authority of EU bodies. I am not sure, I will have to check, but I think that such regulations already exist. I'll get back to you on this one later.

There is no solution.

The only solution is to not get in any deeper than we already are.

Wade the water for a while and see which direction the rest of the idiots err i mean nations are going.

Perhaps the UK could be a sort of tax haven for the rich. Lets start being a bit selective of who we let in to this country for a change. Weve let our fare share of numpties into this country.

This is not a racist remark. Its a true remark when i say numpties i mean for instance all those who come here claiming that they are plumbers/computer technicians and the likes. And soon as they are granted the right to stay in this country the truth comes out that they have no skills and thus end up on the dole sponging of the british tax payer.

After which they send the money the get from this country back home to theyre own country. Which makes our country poorer and theyre's just that little bit richer.

One day us british will be seeking to do the same to theyre country because we will have nothing left here.

Shove Europe Off The White Cliffs Of Dover for all I care. by the way have you seen how many bludgging foreigners live in kent latley?

Blow the tunnel up as soon as to.