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Responsibility for Sins

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posted on Nov, 24 2010 @ 08:23 PM
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reply to post by sykickvision
 
sykickvision,

What it boils down to God cannot take any rebellious ones into Heaven to destroy it as this old earth has been. This is a planet in rebellion to God. You wouldn't take anyone into your paradise who hated you would you. There is many on this earth that hate God and love Satan. Don't you believe this destuctive system must be stopped. He will bring Satan to ashes on this earth and no doubt he will suffer the longest and most evil men will be consumed almost instantly. Eternal hell fire is not true. Here is some verse to show this -

Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

I choose not to be of Satan as he is the one who has brought on the evil governance of this world. He is going around like a roaring lion seeking who he may destroy. Can you not see it, he is the one who is ruler on this earth at present but we are not to even hate him, only his ways and evil. The next verse I set down is true but it is strong.

Pr 8:36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

I leave it at this. Truthiron.




posted on Nov, 24 2010 @ 09:59 PM
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reply to post by truthiron
 


OK - I've heard it all before. I don't believe it. I don't care.



posted on Nov, 24 2010 @ 10:15 PM
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reply to post by sykickvision
 


No, actually, I've GOT to be cynical now. Maybe this should be posted in rants.

*TV Announcer in annoying half-shouting voice*

"Do you have secrets you need to hide? Did you do something that you don't want anyone to find out about? Do you need someone ELSE to take the blame for something YOU did??? IF SO, CALL NOW!
YES, right now we are offering GOD'S CLEANUP SERVICES for a limited time only! This deity is the one the PRO'S call to handle their tough jobs! With millions of years of experience, there IS NO BETTER! To make it even better, HE was his OWN first client! Take a look at what he did:

Created the earth as center of the universe, with only several thousand stars:
Created EVERYTHING in ONLY seven days, INCLUDING all life
Has killed MILLIONS in unjustified wars, has advocated incest, turned people into salt, had people murdered, raped a young virgin - the list goes on

After doing this, he managed to succesfully hide all evidence for him ever doing so, and makes it LOOK like:
The earth is billions of years old
He created and hid fossils, and transitional fossils in varying strata to make it LOOK like life evolved from nothing
He created BILLIONS of galaxies SO far away that we can't see them without special tools
The earth is actually nowhere near the center of the universe, is nothing special, and neither is the sun - there are BILLIONS of suns!
He sucessfully hid EVERYTHING supernatural about how the earth was formed, and how life arrived on the planet! He not only disclaimed the credit for it - he made it appear NATURAL!

Here's the clencher - he actually created a place to torture (for all eternity) those who disagree with him. Torture. With FIRE. But this is magical fire, that can burn an object with no mass - like your immortal soul.
This fire also needs energy to keep it going, so apparantly he does that with...get this......HIS INFINITE LOVE!
LOVE! Yes! For torture!

Call now to enter a drawing for a talking donkey. Or snake...with legs. Your choice.



posted on Nov, 24 2010 @ 10:31 PM
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reply to post by sykickvision
 
I don't want to be mean or anything but despite all this, aren't you glad to be alive and you are able to see the big picture and are able to articulate it? That's pretty special, I think and though the official view of things about God seem unacceptable to you, isn't there some sort of reconciliation possible to some sort of force or something which oversees everything and keeps all these billions of galaxies going and still takes the time to keep you in an insightful condition and having a will of your own to do something about what seems wrong all around you?



posted on Nov, 25 2010 @ 12:47 AM
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reply to post by truthiron
 




God does not threaten us with anything we don't deserve.


While certainly 'sin' deserves punishment I don't think any human being can earn eternal punishment in ONE lifetime no matter how bad they were. No one can deserve infinite punishment for finite sins. Eternal punishment is unjust and God is meant to be MORE just than human beings, not less, he's also supposed to love us a great deal. If you had a kid who misbehaved would you have them punished for eternity without end? If so what sort of offenses would be worthy of this punishment? Because according to Revelation things as simple as lying can get you punished FOREVER with no possibility of parole.



We choose our destiny.


No. According to the Bible God is the judge, not us PLUS none of us decided to be born into sin.



and Christ made it possible for you and I and everyone after Him to have power over Satan and be overcomers


Perhaps you missed the point. God/Jesus also happen to be the ones who make it possible for you to go to Hell to begin with. If God creates Hell and then set a criteria under which we can be sent there than he alone is responsible for who ends up in Hell. So the only thing Jesus is saving people from is a danger his Father is putting them in. Sort of like a protection racket "This is a nice soul you got here. It sure would be a shame if anything happened to this here soul, like maybe some sort of fiery damnation."

As Bill Hicks put it "eternal suffering awaits anyone who questions God's infinite love."



posted on Nov, 25 2010 @ 09:37 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


That wasn't mean at all. It's true. The entire cosmos IS governed by something we can't see, but it can be measured. It's called the LAWS OF PHYSICS. There is absolutely nothing "supernatural" about it. Everything we see IS as it IS because it's what would be expected (or at least possible) on a planet such as ours.
You have no problem accepting science when you take a pill for your headache, it doesn't bother you a bit to trust science when you pump gas into your car. Nor do you feel a twinge of uncertainty as you use the internet, watch TV, flip a light switch, put on your shoes, nor talk on the phone.
I heard a talk recently that stated "If you watch a child walk down the street and they are purposefully stepping over the cracks, you can be certain of at least one thing....they KNOW the cracks are there"
There is one thing that would disprove evolution, and it actually surprises me (also) that no one has yet tried it.
All it would take, would be for a fossilized rabbit skeleton to be found in a pre-cambrian layer of strata.
Now, surely, if science cannot properly date the materials in the fossil and the strata there should theoretically be nothing that would stop a creationist from planting a fossilized rabbit in a layer of that strata and then "discovering" it, or placing it where it could be easily discovered. But they don't. They won't. They will purposefully step OVER that "crack" for a reason. They KNOW the science works. They KNOW it would be exposed as a fake. They'd rather lean on the same tired, old arguments that have been spouted out numerous times before. They know it's slowly closing in on them. God is running out of places to hide.

If a teacher is teaching a class on sewing, wouldn't she demonstrate the same methods and techniques in sewing herself, when she is not teaching class? Wouldn't she at least attempt to be the very epitome of the lessons she teaches?
How would you feel if your grandfather had robbed a bank, and a judge decreed that your father had to serve time for it - and you have to serve time for it, and any children or grandchildren you may have would have to serve time for it as well. How just is that? We humans (in our mere pittance of understanding) KNOW that isn't fair. It isn't right. Why would WE have to suffer for what someone else has done? Do the current laws now punish those among us for false imprisonment and kidnapping who's ancestors owned slaves? You've heard this before. You've heard these arguments and you write them off as humans not being able to understand the mind of god, thereby canceling out the voice of reason in your own mind that tells you that it isn't fair...that it can't possibly be so....that it's just a made up fairy tale just like the hundreds of other gods that have been worshiped. But that fear of burning eternally makes you where you'd rather err on the side of caution.

I am done with this thread. There are enough debunkers out there already and google can provide you with more information than I can.



posted on Nov, 25 2010 @ 10:28 AM
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reply to post by sykickvision
 
I don't think there is a law of physics and we have things that are theories that can be used to make rough predictions in a limited situation, but there is no provable laws as such.
Everything disappears, including yourself, and the particles that you think make you may be in you one second and in the next be in a tree somewhere. You and everything are not solid stable objects and the universe is in a constant flux and there is no such thing as action and reaction or cause and affect. There is no continuity of motion, for example throw a ball and take a picture of it and another a second later. It is not in the second place because it was earlier in the first place. It is in the second place because God created the universe in that second to where the ball was in the later spot instead of in the first spot. There is no science that can prove otherwise.



posted on Nov, 25 2010 @ 06:50 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


*I don't think there is a law of physics and we have things that are theories that can be used to make rough predictions in a limited situation, but there is no provable laws as such.*

Rough predictions in limited situations do not put spacecraft from earth on mars. Precisely calculated trajectories, velocities, decelerations, and varying forces of gravity, along with wind speeds, planetary orbital paths planetary rotations are what gets it there. Literal rocket science isn't based on "rough predictions"

*Everything disappears, including yourself, and the particles that you think make you may be in you one second and in the next be in a tree somewhere. You and everything are not solid stable objects and the universe is in a constant flux*

I can agree with this. Know what would be awesome? If some ancient religion had made mention of this, describing how our atoms have existed for 13.9 billion years or so, temporarily coming together to make us, and then once again spreading out to who knows where...

* and there is no such thing as action and reaction or cause and affect.*
You've got to be kidding me.

* There is no continuity of motion, for example throw a ball and take a picture of it and another a second later. It is not in the second place because it was earlier in the first place. *
Yeah, it couldn't be because a non-existent law of gravity pulled it back down to earth when it finally overcame the force of the throw.

*It is in the second place because God created the universe in that second to where the ball was in the later spot instead of in the first spot. There is no science that can prove otherwise. *

There is also no science that can prove that fairies don't exist, no science to prove that superman isn't real and living on pluto, no science to prove the "flying spaghetti monster" doesn't exist.

What does exist is overwhelming evidence that the christian god is a callous, bloodthirsty monster with the temperament of a spoiled kindergartner on a sugar rush.
What can be proved to exist are religions which capitalize on human superstitions, telling them that by listening to the TRUTH, they are condemning their souls to hell.

This thread should be closed. It has been totally demolished from all the various tangents it has splintered off into.

On this thanksgiving day, I AM very thankful. I'm VERY thankful that I am NOT religious.



posted on Nov, 25 2010 @ 07:08 PM
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Well thanks for provoking some thought and a different perspective and the sincerity.
I am glad to know you are thankful and I hope you all happiness and success in you endeavors.
I am sorry that religion as it exists today is so unappealing to critical thinkers and I hope you do find something or other in the future.



posted on Dec, 21 2010 @ 01:29 AM
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I never understood the theological concept of sin it logically does not make sense. If you have an all powerful being
that created everything and this being is also omnipotent and can know the outcome of all things then it should know that evil would arise from it's creation. people tend to blame Satan or the Adam and Eve for originating evil or sin in this world. however if god created everything then there would have to be an origin point. God created satan with the potential for evil logically he should have known the outcome. he also put a tree in the garden that in the eden myth caused humankind to fall into sin. yet he was surprised by the outcome? And casting adam and eve or satan as the orgin of evil is a cop out it leaves the god figure out of the picture. Why would a being make another being that o posses it why let a being like that destroy its creation? If the being was all powerful why not just erase the offending being just like a programmer deletes a program that is not working?
I have the same issue with the concept of hell. If god is all merciful and as some people love to say god is love then why would he toss people into hell to burn forever that is beyond cruel! If he wanted people to believe a certain
way for example that he/his son died for them and this belief was the key to getting into heaven. Then if he was merciful and a person failed to believe in the tenets that got them into heaven. Why not simply erase them from existence? It horibly cruel and unmerciful to make some one exist for a eternity of punishment its sound like somthing a sick mind would think up. Would god take plesure in watching billions sufer? Why create such an awful place unless you were horibly cruel and took pleasure in the suffering of others?

Maybe so many of the problems of the world stem from the fact people are born into these abrahamic thought
systems that teach them that they are miserbal pieces of crap and that they better watch out or Jesus, Allah, or yahwee are going to get them and do somthing horible in this life or the next.
Teaching children these things are psychologically damaging and can destroy any potential for postive development.

getting back to the thelogical orgins of evil two system that seem to deal with it better then the standard theology of Christianity are

the persian religion zoroastrianism of which there are equal duel beings one good one evil
at least in this concept makes good an evil mutually exclusive from each other.



In Zoroastrianism, the Creator Ahura Mazda is all good, and no evil originates from Him. Thus, in Zoroastrianism good and evil have distinct sources, with evil (druj) trying to destroy the creation of Mazda (asha), and good trying to sustain it. Mazda is not immanent in the world, and His creation is represented by the Amesha

en.wikipedia.org...

And some sects of Gnostosism believe that the god that made this world is evil thus solving the thelogical problem of evil


He is Demiurge and maker of man, but as a ray of light from above enters the body of man and gives him a soul, Yaldabaoth is filled with envy; he tries to limit man's knowledge by forbidding him the fruit of knowledge in paradise. The Demiurge, fearing lest Jesus, whom he had intended as his Messiah, should spread the knowledge of the Supreme God, had him crucified by the Romans. At the consummation of all things all light will return to the Pleroma. But Yaldabaoth, the Demiurge, with the material world, will be cast into the lower depths.

en.wikipedia.org...

just my 2 cents and some venting for today

mods sorry If i misused the off site quote feature please change if possible
I'm not famliar on how to use that feature



posted on Dec, 21 2010 @ 11:28 AM
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reply to post by Titen-Sxull
 
Titen-Sxull,

I was going over the replies I made to you and notice I never did directly to you about about eternal hell fire.

That fire is the Eternal One and consumes the lost, most in the twinkling of an eye, the amount of damage they've done will probably determine the time, Satan the longest, the sins of all the redeemed are put on him. Satan and all the lost will be ashes under the feet of the redeemed according to scripture.

Our God, Yahweh is a consuming fire and this is not fire as we know it, an account in Zechariah shows them disolved while standing on their feet. I made a thread "No Eternal Burning Hell Fire" not real sure now if that is the exact wording of the title.

Truthiron.



posted on Dec, 21 2010 @ 01:21 PM
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reply to post by truthiron
 


There are a great many interpretations of Hell. Some see it as mere separation from God others as a literal Lake of Fire and still others as the annihilation of the soul entirely. The one I find most disturbing is the fundamentalist literalist view that it actually is an actual lake of fire and that, regardless of how many sins you commit, anyone who doesn't accept Jesus will be heading there.

The way I see it if God is truly good and truly merciful he should be able to find a way to punish people without destroying them or torturing them. Rehabilitation is always better than mere imprisonment and if anyone should be able to find a way to redeem people its a loving all powerful God. This is the same reason why I take such offense to Yahweh's thirst for blood in the Old testament, he's always killing or commanding that certain people be killed, yet if he were truly holy, good and ALL POWERFUL he would never have to stoop to breaking one of his own commandments. If he's all powerful than ALL options are open to him, why would he choose the one that involves horrific bloodshed?



posted on Dec, 21 2010 @ 02:23 PM
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reply to post by Titen-Sxull
 
Titen-Sxull,

Yahweh is giving each and everyone not only forgiveness but power over committing sin. As for the death of many in the old testament He was merely protecting His own. The world has been terribly rebellious against Him as they had another Master. In other words they were whores. All are His by rights as He created All. Then He did not require more than the obedience of love. The commandments are not grievious. They are to those who hate Him, but why do they hate Him? Because they can't see that to be in His Family they need to be with and of Him. Men want to commit sin and not be condemned and that can not be. You didn't tell your mom and pop, well I don't like it your way but you got to keep on blessing me with the things I want and what I want to do. What right have you to rule over me? you know I don't like my little brother so you better keep him away from me.

He didn't create the worlds for the rebellious but for those who would love Him as He is Trully a loving Father. He proved that when He gave of Himself in our Redeemer. Titen this rebellion is soon to be at it's climax as it has almost reached the pinnacle of war really against their own creator, Includes Satan, fallen angels whom conspired with him and then man as Satan seduced Eve and Adam knowingly disobeyed. I'm solidly of the opinion that even Satan and the fallen angels had there season to repent and be forgiven but are too proud. Pride seems to be what rose up in Satan first from what can be gathered.

The clay has no right to say to the potter, I won't be a cup in your house, I'll be a beer glass in the saloon. The beer glass ought to be broken had it not?

You know by reading my replies and mybe my threads I show the reasons for my convictions and abide by the Word without wresting it. Yes you got to know I'll stand up for my Saviour until the end.

Even though I do not coerce you or anyone and my God is the same, He does not coerce, although He pleads.

Thanks for being a civil person and working with resonings of others.

Truthiron



posted on Dec, 21 2010 @ 08:02 PM
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reply to post by Titen-Sxull
 


It would seem that the concept hell whether it originated from the greek's concept of hades and tarturus or from a combination of various myths and cultures such as Persian and Egyptian beliefs became quite a benefit for the institution of the roman catholic church. Though hell isn't exclusive to Christians Islam also believes in hell and a day of judgement as does zoratrianism. Also some versions of Buddhism believe in a hell though it is not permanent you are only there until you have worked off you bad karma.
But the doctrine of hell for the first catholic church and the later protestant faiths was a Godsend

It gave the church power over peoples lives if a king or nobility failed to fall in line with the church they could be excommunicated which in the belief system of that time was a one way ticket to to the eternal torture pit and it always helped to have some church propaganda to go around just remind people what a bad place it was.



It also kept the money flowing if you were to much of a sinner you could buy your way into heaven or at least purgatory. It generated vast wealth for the catholic church and gave the church great power over the nations and kingdoms that were with in its domain. The protestant faiths during the reformation were not going to give up a great psychological ploy either most kept the doctrine of hell though others did reject it.
the formula is still successful today and keeps the churches full and money flowing in to build Megachurches.
Sucessfull evangelist can live high on the hog in mansions if they play the con right with tax exemption to boot.
Why get rid of a good scheme if it works?
Islam seems to think its a good enough idea Also. Punish the infidels in hell award the pious in paradise with virgins. You have a nice reward and punishment psychological ploy to keep people in line and play on their emotional buttons.

However Judaism which chirtianity is more or less an offshoot of had no concept of heaven and hell at least in its early stage it had a place called Sheol which was a shadowy place of cold and dark filled with shades.
The most you could expect from Judaism was that you could follow the law and Yahweh would give you a good long life filled with blessings and maybe hold back on the the boils and plagues that he seemed to enjoy dishing out.
I did read someplace I don't feel like digging up the source but at the Council of Nicia an idea similar to the eastern concept of reincarnation was considered and almost voted in as a doctrine of faith.
Makes me wonder if Church would be completely different today if this was doctrine.
But this is how history is made it goes to the winners.



posted on Dec, 21 2010 @ 08:47 PM
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reply to post by truthiron
 


There is not agreement at least amongst Jews and Christians that Yahweh and God the father along with the concept on the trinity are the same being. Jews are monthestic they do not believe in a 3 part god that is also one nor do they believe god can take form as a man the concept of god incarnating as man in Judaism is Blasphemous to Judaisms. They also do not believe that Jesus fulfilled the prophecy of the Messiah. However it seems the Idea of gods and demi gods incarnating through humans and being born of virgins was not that unusual through out the mediterranean cultures and near east.
www.entheology.org...



posted on Dec, 21 2010 @ 09:26 PM
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reply to post by Titen-Sxull
 


I have known people who have done terrible, terrible things and later "found God".
One person in particular who ruined my childhood with violence and fear.
I cannot describe to you the pain, both physical and mental that I suffered at his hand.

And then he was gone, moved on to start a new family, and repeat his actions on them.

Several years later i confronted him, I told him of how he had hurt my mother and I, and his second family.

Did he apologise to the teenage girl crying before him for the wrongs he committed against her and others, did he feel remorse, no he did not.

His response God has forgiven me, I was in a bad place, but now God has forgiven me.

But as i see it, his debt did NOT BELONG TO GOD, god was not beaten, strangled, threatened to be murdered, from the age of 4 years old, afraid that any moment step dad might just kill the entire family.

Why should he be able to be forgiven by praying to god?
This mans debt BELONGS TO ME, and the others he has wronged.

The way I see it GOD has no business forgiving "sins" that were committed against others.
It's a cop out, it's small and pathetic and irresponsible to pardon your ill deeds against humanity by paying lip service to an imaginary deity.



posted on Dec, 21 2010 @ 10:06 PM
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reply to post by ELahrairah
 
ELahrairah,

You hit on the point that must be realized. Yes God knew in the beginning sin, rebellion would rise up as He wanted His to be free and choose whether they would rebel. So before anything He brought out of Himself our Redeemer. Before Bethlehem He was "LORD Hosts". You need to read my latest thread "THESE STAND ON THE ROCK." LORD of Hosts is the great Creator and all angels and men are by Him, that is why His name is LORD of Hosts. All who choose not to rebel and be obedient to the law of love will be saved, those who stubornly persist to rebel can't be taken into Paradise to mess it up, we of Him and He have had enough of this sin thing and don't want to ever take part in it again. It then will not rise up again. It had to be this way as He only wants and can put up with the obedient ones. His own will and must be free within His will, law of love for us and Him. He also abides by His law of love. At Bethlehem LORD of Hosts entered into the body prepared for Him and is known to most as Jesus, Yahshua. He and the Father are from all eternity.

I hope this will help.

Truthiron.



posted on Dec, 21 2010 @ 10:33 PM
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reply to post by mumma in pyjamas
 




It's a cop out, it's small and pathetic and irresponsible to pardon your ill deeds against humanity by paying lip service to an imaginary deity.


Yep.

My dad was a drug head an alcoholic for years until he "found Jesus" - religion is now his drug. Your experience sounds about a thousand times worse than mine. Its a total cop-out and its one that a lot of prison inmates take as well, they're always converting to one faith or another.

That's why I find it so offensive when I'm told that my atheism is based on a desire to get rid of my responsibility to God. Why exactly am I responsible to God and why isn't being responsible to my fellow human beings good enough?



posted on Dec, 21 2010 @ 11:02 PM
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reply to post by truthiron
 



As for the death of many in the old testament He was merely protecting His own.


How was he protecting his own when he flooded the entire Earth killing newborns, puppies, etc? How was offering power over Job and allowing Satan to kill Job's children "protecting his own"? How does the revenge of killing the first born of Egypt in any way protect the Hebrews? Why would a God who created everyone and loved everyone pick a favorite race and then command both racial purity and genocide against other peoples? How does completely desolating everyone, including innocent children, in Sodom and Gomorrah - when Lot and his family were already running to safety with two angels - protect his own? Sorry but that blanket excuse doesn't work at all. Even if it did work it doesn't justify a good God committing murder. If he's all powerful he could easily just surround the people he wanted protected, or those they were to be protected from, in a wall of impenetrable energy. If he could do ANYTHING why is murder at the top of his list?


The commandments are not grievious.


Have you ever read the commandments of the Old testament? In the ten commandments it says to kill anyone who works on the Sabbath. The ten also put restrictions on thoughts, you aren't allowed to covet your neighbors goods or wife. They also restrict free speech and free religion as you are not allowed to have any gods but Yahweh. In Deuteronomy is says women who aren't virgins on their wedding night should be brutally stoned to death. The commandments are grievous and morally repugnant to any with a sound moral conscience.


In other words they were whores.


Somehow a whore's life has less value than someone elses? Considering that Yahweh, if the Bible is to be believed, condones slavery I really don't think he's in any position to cast judgment on whores.


You didn't tell your mom and pop, well I don't like it your way but you got to keep on blessing me with the things I want and what I want to do.


Any good parent respects their child's autonomy to a certain degree and especially after they've become an adult. All parents know that their children are not going to be capable of fulfilling their every whim and obeying their every command. Yet Yahweh doesn't seem to know this. He seems to think that anyone who doesn't obey deserves eternal torment. What sort of a God grants his children free will but then demands, under penalty of eternal torment, that they only use that free will as he sees fit? The same sort of God who would damn all generations to come for the sins of two naked people who listened to a talking snake.


as He is Trully a loving Father.


A loving Father would have forgiven Adam and Eve. God puts Adam and Eve in the Garden with no apparatus for telling right from wrong. They have no knowledge of good and evil yet he expects them to obey - HOW? How can they know that obeying him is right if they do not know right and wrong? The story is analogous to a hot stove. The forbidden fruit is like a hot stove top and God, like a parent, warns his children not to touch. But rather than forgive them and help mend their wounds afterward God is so furious that he curses humanity, and, according to most Christian interpretations, damns Adams descendants to be born in sin. Rather than show mercy he casts them out into the world and leaves them tainted with sin, despite the fact they were entirely unable to know that what they did was wrong. Six chapters into the Bible God decides his only course of action is to kill every living thing on the planet. Within the first six chapters yahweh has proven that he is not a good Father, in fact he's one of the worst imaginable.

then man as Satan seduced Eve and Adam knowingly disobeyed.

They knew they were disobeying but, as they had no knowledge of good and evil, could not have known it was wrong to disobey. Also, Satan isn't mentioned as being in the Garden, the Bible says a snake, which was the craftiest creature God had made, was there. The idea that this snake was Lucifer stems from other verses and interpretations. The word Satan simply means adversary and it isn't always used in the Bible to refer to the specific character, the link between Lucifer and Satan is even more tenuous but that's a subject for another discussion entirely.


The clay has no right to say to the potter, I won't be a cup in your house, I'll be a beer glass in the saloon


If God wanted obedience, if that was his goal and wish than all he needed to do is create a race of unthinking unfeeling beings. If he wanted us to be able to make our own choices than he should be comfortable with those choices. If he wants us to love him than he'd better make himself known and show that he is a God worthy of love. The Yahweh of the Bible, if the book is taken literally, is not worthy of love and is a being of unspeakable evil.

A Father should not, when his children leave the house, grab them as they leave and say, "Obey my every word, or I will kill you, but don't forget that I love you. You must do only what I say if you want my blessing or my help" - That is not the love of a loving Father, it is a conditional love and a threat of violence, yet that is how the Bible makes Yahweh come off.



posted on Dec, 22 2010 @ 12:03 AM
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Geez it seems so bizarre why bother creating anything in the first place if it turns out to be such a Massive failure
and correcting the failure requires such massive and weird effort. Your chief angel turns traitor and goes crazy wreaking havock all over your creation. And even though your Omnipotent you couldn't for see that your chief angelic
creation would turn rebel when you made him. Then after you make the crown jewel of your creation a man made out of mud and dirt and blow some life into him. He gets all Mopey so you make him a play mate out of his rib.
You tell him and his lesser play mate that they can eat all the goodies in the garden except for the stuff from one
No- No tree but even though your omnipotent you seemed to have forgotten that you left that tricky snake in the garden. And still with all your omnipresence you must have had your back turned because oh look what happened
your pet project ended up eating from the no touch bad fruit tree all because of that pesky snake you left in the garden. You start to realize that this whole creation thing has gotten off to a real bad start so you get really pissed and kick the kids out of the fun happy time garden. But first you got to make sure they don't eat from that other tree that happens to be in the garden the one that will apparently make the kids just like you. So you rush them out and tell them their life is going to suck and they will have to till some earth and your creations playmate will have to give painful birth doom and gloom crap all because you got a grudge about that one fruit tree. In short your royally pissed with them. At some point you make hell to burn the billions of the offspring of your first two creations forever for not excepting your master plan to fix the whole situation about the grudge you have for them eating the Apple from the forbidden tree. But your great master plan to fix the whole situation will have to wait a few thousand years. You green light them having kids Eve pops out two brats. Some time later the two brats want to show you how much they love you so one gives you some vegetables the other gives you some meat.
Your not a vegetarian Deity you dig blood sacrifiecies and burnt offerings. So Able gets your affection. This gets Cain real jealous and you once again must of had your omnipotent back turned because Cain up and kills Able.
You get pretty impressed by what Cain does you think too yourself maybe he not a vegetarian wimp after all
I like his style. You put a sign on his head so whoever kills him will receive 7 times your wrath since you have got a real thing for the number 7 you also kinda like 40 a whole lot. Weird since there is like nobody else around to kill him. Anyway Cain wanders off to Nod which is like an abandoned city since there is no one else around.
Maybe Cain will wait around a couple more hundred years for his mom and dad to make some more kids so he can have some incest. Since everybody you made at this point lives like to be 600 hundred years old.
Someone begets someone begets someone who begets some old fart named Methuselah. Your Angels start getting horny and doing it with the lady folk down on the earth who get knocked up and make these mutant giant babys that are a real pain in your holy rear. Whats a deity to do? Oh yeah you decide you will just drown everybody. Things havn't been going very good since that whole apple incident some hundred years ago. You think to yourself as you get ready to deep 6 the earth "That sure was one bad apple look what I have to do because of it" However its a lot of work to start over for an all powerful being so you see some sap you kind of like named Noah and tell him to build a boat to put two of every animal on. Well except for the dinosaurs they suck and are not coming on this trip might as well get rid of them. You also magicaly transport all the animals from the other parts of the world like the marsupials in Australia and the Critters from the Amazon and the polar bears from the north pole and the bison from north america shrink them down so they can fit on this big boat that still isn't big enough to fit all the animals species on earth. As for the plants heck you can just let those drown and Re-god them back into existence plants are easy to make. You crank up the water works and waterworld the earth for 40 days. Noah boat lands on a mountain and you kinda feel crapy about the whole genocide by water thing so you promise Noah you at least won't ever flood the earth again and show your sincerity by making a Rainbow for him because you really like rainbows even though you hate gay people a whole lot.
Noah makes an animal sacrifice that has a pleasing aroma to your nostrils. One of his kids sees Noah naked
and you turn all his decedents into slaves your not really sure why you just love doing things like that.
You use your god magic to telaport all the non indigenousness animals back to there native environments. After that with your god mojo you recreate all the plants you wiped out in the flood.Than all the animal get busy repopulating the world through inbreeding. Noah and his family get down to some inbreeding too. At this point the gene pool really sucks so people don't get to live as long as they use too. some generation go by and you find some other sap named Abraham you tell him to kill his kid and he gets ready to do it and you change your mind and stop him and this is your awesome covenant with him and his kids. You also promise him some great killer real estate in the future. Abraham has a brother that hangs out in some queer city named Sodom you work some deal that if you can find one non gay person then you will spare the city because hey your a merciful deity.
Then you decide to carpet bomb the whole place because there were to many gay people. Lots wife takes a peak back gets turned into salt because thats just the type of god you are. Abraham gets into some incest.
Then gets it on with his slave his slave has a kid named Ishmael. Then you use your magic god powers to make Abraham's barren old wife crank out anouther brat named Isac who's ancestors will go on to found a religion that later clashes with the relgion that Ishmael will found. Which is great because at this point you have come to enjoy violence. ..........................................fast forward
Lots of violence genocide animal sacrifice killing plagues more plagues more genocide crazy visions. Crazy rules that require death by stoning more genocides killing whole city's including women an children.

Ok time for that master plan of yours to undo that whole apple incident in the garden. You go find your peace nick love and forgiveness son Jesus who is not a whole lot like you because he is not into the whole genocide murder eye for an eye thing that you really get a kick out of. You send him down to incarnate in a Virgin named Mary. He teaches people about turning the other cheek how to forgive their enemies. he heals a bunch of people and feeds the hungry. You realize how much you are not like your son his style is not your style. But your son isn't aware of what your master plan is yet but he finds out he must die in a horrific way to appease your wrath and blood lust that you took out on all the decendents of adam and eve for eating that apple.
You really need your peace loving kind son to die to appease your insane wrath. And sure enough he dies for you and all the people on the earth so they have there sin and the original sin of eating that bad apple forgiven.
However they are not of the hook they also must believe and except that your love and peacnick son died for their sins and the orginal sin of adam and eve or you will roast them forever and ever in a fire pit.
Truly you marvel at what a great plan this is and what a great fix it is to your creation.
You resurrect Jesus and bring him back up into heven but not after you get him to tell his followers that he will return in less then a generation. one generation passes still no jesus two generations pass still no jesus but hes coming anytime soon.................................................thousands of generations pass holy wars are fought
witches are burned people are tortured by the inquisition more wars. Science is held back by relgious dogma. ......................................................flash to the 21 century. You tell Jesus that its time to put on the show you can't wait this will be more exciting then the flood. You get Jesus to rapture up the couple hundred people that were actually able to follow all of your contradictory and crazy rules. Then you let the blood bath of armagadon begin this is what you waited all those thousands of years for.Death and destruction everywhere seas boiling with blood seven headed monsters plagues and fires. Once your done creating havock on the earth you crank up the furnaces of hell and watch the billions of followers who did not believe that your son died for the sin of their ancestors adam and eve and the original sin of eating that forbidden apple in the garden so long ago.
A smile crosses your face as you watch billions writhe in agony in the furnace of hell forever.
You think to yourself I truly am a Just and Loving God
the end




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