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Responsibility for Sins

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posted on Nov, 24 2010 @ 01:53 AM
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In a recent discussion with a Christian fundamentalist I was told that my decision to become an atheist was the result of me wanting to give up my responsibility to God so that I could sin and quote "do my own thing". To this person it was unfathomable that I actually had legitimate reasons to leave my faith behind and it was also unbelievable that I had stopped believing in God altogether. Instead, I was told, that I still very much believed and in fact KNEW God was real.

I wasn't sure how to react at first but later on when the discussion was long over I came to a realization. Christianity is really all about losing ones responsibility for sins. This person I was talking to had it entirely backward. Christianity states that an innocent man died for your wrongdoings so that all you need to do to be entirely forgiven is repent and believe. In other words you can murder, maim rape and kill and as long as you're sincerely sorry you don't need to pay a price, Jesus will wash away your sin. Jesus has paid the price, he's sprung you from a prison cell and set you free from the "law of sin and death"... So how exactly am I the one trying to shirk responsibility to God here? If anything, if there is a God, I'll get what I deserve but Christians, they get one free ticket to Heaven on the back of an innocent man who did nothing wrong.

For a bit more in depth analysis of this conundrum visit my blog Here




posted on Nov, 24 2010 @ 02:15 AM
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reply to post by Titen-Sxull
 
"Be baptised and wash away your sins, calling on the name of Jesus." The believer removes the sinfulness from himself with help from God, and Jesus takes those old sins and places them on the head of the one who bears the ultimate responsibility for causing sin to exist, Satan. Our free ride is that we do not have to face our great enemy ourselves and have an intercessor in the person of Jesus who does that, using the force of justice that he gained by his death that satisfied its demands.



posted on Nov, 24 2010 @ 02:23 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


I'm curious as to where you get the idea that Satan is the origin of sin, I don't remember anything about that being in the Bible. The Bible never gives a clear answer as to where evil and sin originate from. It also never says, to my knowledge, that Satan is the true bearer of sin, if that were the case the Lake of Fire would be reserved for Satan only and not any of his angels right? I mean if he's really the one to blame for everything wouldn't it just be him in Hell all by his lonesome?
edit on 24-11-2010 by Titen-Sxull because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 24 2010 @ 02:52 AM
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The fallacy of sin lies within the person who either believes or doesn't. We as a hu-man's have the right to declare our own rights, and our own sins. We have for a very long time. WE do not know of the true belief, nor the true SIN, so we reside in limbo. So I personally think that we have a "get out of jail free" card.

If YOU as a person residing here have a legitimate complaint of the conditions of said place, I think that with the proper representation, you have a case. This IMHO does not include those that think that jesus will help, or persons who think that heaven and hell exist's.

WE our selves had made this what it is, and have to deal with the repercussions of those before us. You only have to decide which side your on.

Peace, NRE.



posted on Nov, 24 2010 @ 03:10 AM
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reply to post by Titen-Sxull
 
"the ancient serpent, the one called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world"
Revelation uses these kind of exaggerated images to illustrate points, among them is the lake of fire. After the imagery, there is the explanation, "this is the second death". It's a double death that kills the body and everything else that is included as a part of your identity, meaning your soul.
The idea of a continued existence in some sort of flaming hell in my opinion is a medieval invention and is a misunderstanding of some of the trickier aspects of interpreting revelatory scripture.
The followers of Satan go with Satan into oblivion because they share in his attitude of not being repentant, and to address your problem with what passes today as religion, including so-called Christians who think they can continue sinning and they will somehow be saved anyway.



posted on Nov, 24 2010 @ 03:37 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


But I thought Satan's problem was Pride, not that he was unrepentant. I mean the Bible never depicts him as being sorry for what he did but most Christians would claim that he committed the unforgivable sin and therefore could not be redeemed even if he wanted to be. So I don't think its his lack of remorse that's getting him cast into the Lake of Fire, or oblivion as you view it.

I agree that depictions of Hell are mostly overblown imagery probably added in over the years (particularly borrowing from the Greek Underworld if I'm not mistaken) but that is one of my main problems with the Bible in general. It is very confusing in its talk of Heaven and Hell and our modern interpretations don't help make sense of it at all. One thing seems clear from the text however, Jesus's blood is meant to cleanse you of sin and apparently all you need do is accept the sacrifice and be sorry/repentant of what you've done to avoid punishment. John 3:16 sets the easiest criteria imaginable saying that all you need do is believe and you'll live forever.



posted on Nov, 24 2010 @ 03:53 AM
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reply to post by Titen-Sxull
 
Pride and being unrepentant goes together. A person can be proud too, like thinking, "Great, I'm saved now because I believe." Well, they don't know what the word means. Believing is the path but you have to walk down it. Sitting at the trail-head is not like reaching the destination.



posted on Nov, 24 2010 @ 04:38 AM
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I was told that my decision to become an atheist was the result of me wanting to give up my responsibility to God so that I could sin and quote "do my own thing".

Odds are that that wasn't an argument. More likely, you were simply a projection target. Even as straight rhetoric, it suffers from being ad hominem and, to all appearances, claims mental telepathy as the speaker's source about your motives. Also, it does not reflect the usual Christian view about the full consequences of sin, to be discussed below.

This argument, then, is not to be taken seriously.


Christianity is really all about losing ones responsibility for sins. This person I was talking to had it entirely backward. Christianity states that an innocent man died for your wrongdoings so that all you need to do to be entirely forgiven is repent and believe. In other words you can murder, maim rape and kill and as long as you're sincerely sorry you don't need to pay a price, Jesus will wash away your sin. Jesus has paid the price, he's sprung you from a prison cell and set you free from the "law of sin and death"...

That's Protestant Christianity, and not all Protestants would interpret St Paul in quite those terms. Even if all Protestants did, there are about twice as many Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Chrsitians as there are Protestant Christians. For the majority, it's definitely "You play, you pay."

Many thoughtful Protestants would also point out that if you really were in the required Christ-accepting state of mind and soul, then you wouldn't be inclined to murder, maim, and rape. Then again, most of the time, most people aren't, anyway.

Affordable forgiveness of a repentant sinner's sins is typical of Christianity generally. However, it is important to remember that Jesus will only square your account with his Father. The other consequences of your sin go through. So, murder somebody. Jesus is committed to help you with your eternal damnation problem. For the lethal injection and wrongful death civil suit, you're on your own.

That, by the way, is a nice response to a Protestant debate opponent on another point that frequently comes up, and implicitly came up in your debate. What is the atheist motivation to behave responsibly? You and your opponent agree that sins have consequences, that both of you will endure the temporal consequences of your sin, and that those are the only consequences you will endure.

If that much is sufficient to motivate a "saved" theist to refrain from bad acts, then it ought to be enough for a "damed" untheist, as well.



posted on Nov, 24 2010 @ 08:00 AM
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reply to post by Titen-Sxull
 
Titen-Sxull,

The problem is though the wages of sin is death, eternal death. We are all appointed to die once but we don't have to die the second death which is eternal death.

In true repentence we are forgiven and told go sin no more and then He dwells in us to give us the power to walk as He walked when upon this earth. True once a sinner always a sinner but a remedy was given, a price was paid and we are his twice now first by creation and now by redemption so why shouldn't we want to please Him and that is what is the motive to do His will, LOVE, no greater love can be expressed than to lay down your life for your friends. How can we not love the one who saved us from eternal damnation?

Truthiron.



posted on Nov, 24 2010 @ 08:36 AM
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I recently made a post concerning atheism and morals and how the Christian community as a whole views a non-belief in god as embracing the principles which they claim that satan embodies.
As an atheist, I DO have a god of sorts, I have a god that sees everything I do and knows my every thought. He is somewhat judgemental and critical of some of the things I do, but by and large, he's a fairly nice guy. I see this "god" in the mirror every morning as I brush my teeth and largely ignore my hair.
I do not believe that atheism incites immoral values; now that being said by no means am I declaring that all atheists are saints.
If a christian were to hypothetically steal money from work & not get caught - his conscience would probably bother him until he prayed and asked for forgiveness. It might take several times before he could consciously project the guilt away from himself and onto satan, or into the vast black hole of god's forgiveness.
As a non-believer, I have no such luxury. My "god" will glare at me from the mirror. I WILL feel bad, and for good reason. I will have given in to a primal urge, similar to in the animal kingdom when one steals another one's food. There is no remorse in their world - however, my higher brain functions tell me that what I did was wrong. In a sense, I failed.
As a species, I firmly believe that our superstitions are holding back our progress. What worked thousands of years ago was fine (but wrong) for the time. There was no other way for them to explain what they observed. But now....we know better. We can explain and figure out many of the things that had been attributed to supernatural powers.
Religion has caused us to believe that we are not animals. It makes us think that we are better than they are, not just smarter, but more deserving of being here than they do - when in reality we ARE them. More advanced, but still the same. They teach that we are to subdue the earth, and by that many take it to mean "rape and plunder", "litter and destroy" and that we HAVE done. It teaches that we are created in the image of god, when the bible portrays god as an egocentric, homicidal, bipolar, hypocritical warmonger who eternally punishes all who exercise the free will which he so benevolently provided. If you want to keep a kid off of a tricycle, you don't GIVE him a tricycle and then burn him with cigarettes when he disobeys. But god would. I refuse to represent myself as being made in the image of the god I just described. You may say "infinite love....blah blah blah", yet I say infinite love would always forgive.



posted on Nov, 24 2010 @ 10:06 AM
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reply to post by Titen-Sxull
 
Titen-Sxull,

Satan was the first as he rebelled in Heaven then there was war and he was cast out.

Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Re 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

His "tale", lies, deceptions drew a third of the angels, stars with him.

Re 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Re 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Re 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

He is the first bad egg so to speak.

Truthiron.



posted on Nov, 24 2010 @ 11:27 AM
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reply to post by sykickvision
 

. . .he could consciously project the guilt away from himself and onto Satan, or into the vast black hole of god's forgiveness.
When I wanted to understand the Old Testament concept of forgiveness, I found it was mainly a study of the Book of Psalms. A good case in point was the life of David and his mistakes and subsequent remorse. The best I could come up with is that God takes the guilt upon Himself and transports it away from the sinner. This sin taken on becomes a burden and there comes a point where there has to be some sort of recompense to eliminate it.
A Christian understanding is that Jesus became the recipient of that stored up guilt and took the brunt of the punishment that all these misdeeds deserved in order to satisfy justice. The divine part of his makeup was able to allow his human part to survive the experience long enough for the transfer to complete. His human body then experienced death and that soul went to Hades, just as yours or mine would.
The divinity of Jesus was not able to be held by the bodily death so he was called forth, as God reassembled his physical frame. He then had a different makeup that was purified of the frailties of normal life as we know it. Keep in mind that spiritually, this reborn person was the carrier of all that guilt, as the physical death was not the compete eradication of that guilt. When Jesus returned to heaven, he gained power, power enough to take that guilt and to transfer it onto who, up until then, was the most powerful being in the universe, Satan. (God himself not technically defined as a being) While we have the guarantee of God that this will happen, that Satan will have returned and placed on his head all the guilt of the world, Jesus restrains himself to allow those who have not yet repented to do so. Then the whole world will become a high temperature oven to reverse all the pollution, while the saved are held safe in a city of God in heaven.


edit on 24-11-2010 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 24 2010 @ 12:50 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


I'm not under the assumption that I have a soul of any sort that needs saving from anything. Why WOULD I need saving from acting out as a creator designed me? And futhermore, it's the wrath of the creator that I would need saving from!
I put no more faith in religious books than I would any books located on the "fiction" aisle at the library.
I'm a far cry more "christian" as an atheist than I was as a churchgoer. I now know that there is no one going to heal the sick of their diseases, save a doctor. There is no god caring for the starving. There is no god preventing natural disasters from striking, nor causing them to strike. If anyone is to do anything about these calamities, it is us.
IF there were a god, if there WERE sins we needed saving from, IF he cared anything about us at all - he would show us so that we all would believe beyond any shadow of a doubt.
My meager knowledge of the universe, of how it's made and built, of how it operates has provided enough salvation for me. There is no way, ever, that I would take my children to a church and make them sit and listen to someone tell them that there was something horribly wrong with them at birth, and that is the way that they were made. What sense is there in telling a child that, and then telling them that they must adhere to a set of beliefs to have a chance of ever being OK before that creator or else he will burn them forever. Ask god for forgiveness? I believe that if the christian god were real, he would need to ask OUR forgiveness for all the pain and suffering his egotistical, self-centered bigotry has caused. WE did nothing wrong! WE were acting as HE (Mr. Perfect) created us to be!

I do agree with you on one thing - that the world will one day become an oven. Whether or not it survives it's "baking" is another thing as is the method of it's destruction. We know that one day our sun will die, and before it does it will sterilize this entire solar system with a force beyond our comprehension. We also could be the method of it's destruction, since no monkey (even advanced ones with itchy fingers) should ever be in control of nuclear weapons.

Please do not take offense to this post - as both being members of ATS we can most certainly be in agreement to disagree at times. No doubt you view me as I view you, overall inherently missing what we both consider to be major points. I want you to be aware that I am not attacking you, or your beliefs. I've a saying "You go ahead and live in your fantasy world, and let me live in mine"

Peace - happy holidays.



posted on Nov, 24 2010 @ 03:02 PM
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reply to post by truthiron
 


But why does sin require eternal punishment? Why does something like being a liar or a magician get people thrown into the lake of fire in Revelation? It seems a bit harsh to lump liars in with murderers don't you think? The Bible seems to suggest that all sin will get you sent to Hell after you die, no possibility of parole, no shortened sentence, you sin and down you go. That's about as unjust a punishment as I can think of and yet God is supposed to be MORE just and righteous and forgiving than we humans are - he sure doesn't come off that way.



How can we not love the one who saved us from eternal damnation?


God is the only one threatening anyone with eternal punishment, he's the judge and executioner and he created Hell to begin with. And if Jesus is just God in another form why exactly should I love him for saving me from an already unjust punishment that he threatened me with? And why make the requirement of faith in Jesus in order to be saved from the danger God put us in instead of leaving behind sufficient evidence so that EVERYONE would have a reason to believe?



Satan was the first as he rebelled in Heaven then there was war and he was cast out.


Satan was the first to sin? That doesn't explain where sin comes from though, how evil could just have sprung into existence in the mind of an angel despite God being omnibenevolent, omnipotent and omniscient is beyond me.

reply to post by eight bits
 





That, by the way, is a nice response to a Protestant debate opponent on another point that frequently comes up, and implicitly came up in your debate.


Yep, and it's very similar to what I told this person as a response. I explained that I'm already responsible for my actions in the here and now. We're responsible to society and to each other. If I act like a total jerk people won't like me as much, if I break the law I could go to prison. There's no magic man in the sky required for moral behavior



posted on Nov, 24 2010 @ 03:11 PM
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reply to post by sykickvision
 

Don't worry about me being offended by all that and it seems a reasonable enough sentiment.
What I was saying in my post is the Christian view of sin and responsibility. It might seem very odd to a lot of people who were raised going to church because this view of things has gotten lost over the last 150 years in America. I attribute it to the work of people invested in the continuation and growth of a feudalistic power monopoly with a universal "Church" that stands with it and gives it its legitimacy. The agents of religious officialdom have been hard at work corrupting the purity of a Gospel which leaves out any sort of non organic priesthood connected to government. Call it the Illuminati, the Jesuits or the Synagogue of Satan, they are the heads of the beast that treads the people of the earth to feed on their corpses.

edit on 24-11-2010 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 24 2010 @ 03:31 PM
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reply to post by Titen-Sxull
 

Why does something like being a liar or a magician get people thrown into the lake of fire in Revelation?
I think the term translated here as magician would apply to people who use things in a technical way for the purpose of killing people. Examples could be spraying chemtrails, putting microwave devices in airports and making people stand in them, creating genetically modified food in the supermarket with animal genes, allowing aspartame in diet soda, putting fluoride in the drinking water. All the people who die from them are murder victims.
Lying would include selling mortgage backed securities and causing people to loose their pensions and then foreclosing on houses to offset their losses and having people committing suicide in droves. All to get these taxpayer subsidised bonus for committing the frauds, then being able to keep them and never face prosecution. All the people who die in the wake of their fulfilling their lustful desires are victims of murder.
The major perpetrators of lies and magic are murderers, when it comes to the people being punished with fire and brimstone and are of a class to be grouped with Satan and his angels.


edit on 24-11-2010 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 24 2010 @ 04:18 PM
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reply to post by Titen-Sxull
 
Titen-Sxull,

God does not threaten us with anything we don't deserve. We choose our destiny. This life is a battle for the mind, soul between Christ and Satan. Who will you be of is the Question. If Adam and Eve would have overcome Satan we wouldn't be in this "pickle", and Christ made it possible for you and I and everyone after Him to have power over Satan and be overcomers. Satan took away this earth from Adam because he defeated him and got him to disobey and now is god of this world. Adam and Eve would have had eternal life if they would not have disobeyed God's temporary test.

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

He is offering a way out of our dilemma and it is not grevious.

Jos 24:15 ¶ And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Yes the Lord God must and will make an end of sin or He wouldn't be love. All who take a hold of His Salvation have seen what sin and disobedience lead too and it will not rise up again to destroy as it has for almost 6,000 yrears now.

Na 1:9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

The time is getting close to when Yahweh must bring it to an end. The condition of the world, civil and Christian should tell all something is terrribly wrong and man cannot right it.

Truthiron.



posted on Nov, 24 2010 @ 07:25 PM
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reply to post by Titen-Sxull
 


I find myself in agreement with this. Not solely for the fact that for some reason I hear this entire post read out in my head in the voice of Tom Servo, but for the rationalization as well.
What sort of a world would this be, if we..who are "created in the image of god" ACTED as god did in the OT. Assuming there were any of us left, we would have never progressed beyond the days where we were scratching in the dirt with sticks, sacrificing and burning the occasional goat and/or lamb and sprinkling its blood everywhere. Instead of grounding our teenagers, we could just have them stoned to death. THAT would teach them! For the younger kids, instead of getting a 5-minute "time-out", we could just dunk them in boiling water for a moment or two. That would teach them to follow the christian path. Right? No progress here, we'd still be screaming and ranting about demons causing diseases and following inane laws forbidding the consumption of shellfish and the length of womenfolk's hair. I've known churchmembers who were nearly as bad already - insisting that men should wear long sleeve shirts year round, and stay cleanly shaven. But that's fine. If people can honestly look at the facts about them and STILL believe the delusions, then so be it.

How bad could your child possibly behave in which you would torture them to death by fire?
How much would it change your answer if you knew the fire wouldn't kill them? Would you still burn them? Regardless of what was said, or what the original deal was - when it came right down to the time to watch the blisters boil up on their skin and the blood to flow and the flesh to sear....would you still do it?

It's no small wonder the christian religion is fraught with crimes against children, each other, sexual abuse...the list goes on. That god of yours....is seriously....one sick puppy.



posted on Nov, 24 2010 @ 07:37 PM
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reply to post by truthiron
 


I don't see how someone can hold two conflicting ideas in their mind and still be convinced that they are both true. I had typed a long elaborate response to your post, and then....I just gave up.
I can't say anything right now that wouldn't be offensive, and I've got this atheistic moral code to uphold. So......yeah, happy holidays.



posted on Nov, 24 2010 @ 08:03 PM
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reply to post by sykickvision
 
You should tell us how you really feel. *being sarcastic*
I think that the more oppressive the government is the more oppressive the religion is.
That's why I think the American Christianity of 150 to 180 years ago was the closest to the truth.
What we have today is so corrupted because of the fascist governments all amalgamating to create a new world order which will throw us into times worse than the darkest medieval times.
People who plan these things are not stupid an they plan a century ahead of time and they start by degrading the culture and target religion specifically.
What we have is spiritual Babylon, and the only ones who will be the recipients of God's grace will be the ones who break free from it and reclaim their person-hood and fight for their souls. Those who just go along to get along will join the murderers in the lake of fire. Apathy is condoning the acts of the murderers, and makes you complicit. Don't look to the truly religious for the enemy, but look at who Jesus pointed to as being unable to get through the gate into the kingdom.




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