It is truly disturbing that a group of people can make a religion the spite of the world. Jakko, please take a minute to understand something. People are responsible for their actions NOT religion. First off christianity was not the first of it's kind. Krishna, Budda, Osiris, all were born of a virgin or perfected woman, crucified, or killed in some other manner, and were born again in 3 days. If christianity is to be all to end all, how do you explain these examples? Jesus was just one prophet of many. He was not perfect (remember his rage at the temple). You praise the son but what of the father? Jesus also states (forgive me if I forget chapter) "Do not worship me, worship the one who sent me." Christians worship Jesus instead. Aren't Christians told not to make an graven images of the Lord? So why worship Jesus on a cross? No religion is perfect. If you were born in India, your christ would be Budda, or Vishnu, or Krishna. Religions evolve as man evolves. Bottom line is we worship one supreme being with many names. All religions have been corrupted to benefit a particular group or exploit another. No religion has truly evolved because man has not. Religion just divides individuals. Look at this post. That is why religious convos go in circles. As long as you strive to be a better individual, you are in the right direction. That is the true religion.

Originally posted by Leveller
Yeah, sure your god is the god of quite a few murderers, but did he really have to put one of them in charge?

That's an interesting subject.
Many times in the bible you'll see that the people God chooses for the most important positions, seem to be the worst choices at first sight.
Moses did murder someone, but God knows this as well, and still he chooses Moses?

I think God knew that Moses was not evil inside.
The mistake that Moses had made, was a very bad sin, and if you read the entire story of Moses, you will find that eventually, he has to pay quite a harsh price for that mistake.

In the meantime God still put a murderer in charge, why?

I think God is trying to make a point through this, and many other stories of seemingly "wrong" people at important positions.
No matter how deep you have sunken, no matter how weak you think you are, God wants to use you as well.
Your horrible past will not keep God from loving you or forgiving you, it will not even keep God from using you and your life to serve Him.
It's the total understanding that God has of us, that makes God able to forgive us if we are truly sorry for our deeds.

Now don't start slapping me with these extreme "should we forgive Osama Bin Laden" kind of questions. I do not have all the answers, my wisdom is nothing compared to Gods.
All I know is that Gods forgiveness, and Gods desire to heal what's broken, and to strengthen what's weak, is bigger than we realize.

[edit on 2-7-2004 by Jakko]

Wow Jakko, do you realize how seriously anti-Islamic the things your are saying are?

I'm friends with lots of people who considder themselves Islamic, running across the full range of Islam from traditional Middle Eastern Islamic groups to those in the Nation of Islam, and I believe they would all take grave issue with your statments.

Islam is not a joy-less religion, not in the slightest!

Some of the world's most beautiful art, music and literature has been created for by Islamic peoples in the name of religion. I absolutely love middle eastern music, much of it is devoted to Allah, and there is a flowing poetry in the verse that I find almost nowhere else in any sound let alone music. It's so much more beautiful than any of the Jesus-freak pop that Americans seem to devour for some reason beyond me.

If you want to see Islamic art, look at the Mosques, absolutely breath taking in their glory, and they are the equals of the absolute best Christian cathedrals.

Islamic peoples also love to worship, it is not a forced dicipline action with no enjoyment. Their prayer is a whole body and soul experence, my friends say that they feel god flow through them like a river of perfection, sounds very joyus to me.

There are miracles in Islam as well as angels, prophets and most of the elements of other Western Religions.


Next, I was born a Christian, Roman Catholic actually before I became Pagan, and I would never ever downplay the role that Christianity played in the suffering of untold millions durring the Middle Ages. I would also call the offenders by saying that they did not follow the teachings of Christ, but the actions were still taken in God's name and they believed what they were doing was right, just as you believe that calling Islam the product of Satan is right.

Finally, your idea that other religions are perversions of Christianity, I find offensive, taking part in my religion could earn someone a death sentence durring the Middle Ages, and it sounds like what Christians believed about witches in the burning times is starting to be thought about all other religions now. Islam did not spring forth corrupted from Christianity, but was brought, by a great man and great leader in glory to the peoples of the world and should be given the same respect as any other major global religion including Christianity.

Judge not, lest you be judged Christians, and let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Blessed Be, And May The Goddess Bring Us Understanding.
~Astral

Originally posted by The Astral City
I absolutely love middle eastern music, much of it is devoted to Allah, and there is a flowing poetry in the verse that I find almost nowhere else in any sound let alone music. It's so much more beautiful than any of the Jesus-freak pop that Americans seem to devour for some reason beyond me.

The range of styles that there are in Christian music, is way too big for you to say such a thing without appearing very, very subjective.

There are miracles in Islam as well as angels, prophets and most of the elements of other Western Religions.

Maybe allah just refuses to do miracles in the netherlands then?
Seriously, the current state of these religions, regarding direct action from God now are so far away from eachother they can hardly be compared.

I would never ever downplay the role that Christianity played in the suffering of untold millions durring the Middle Ages.

I think that humans would have done such horrible things with or without Christianity, in anyones name.

just as you believe that calling Islam the product of Satan is right.

Hold on here, it's just a theory I have. Merely thoughts about how and why things are how they are. I can't really help it and for all I know I am plain wrong.

Finally, your idea that other religions are perversions of Christianity, I find offensive

Why? It's not ment as an insult at all....

Islam did not spring forth corrupted from Christianity, but was brought, by a great man and great leader in glory to the peoples of the world

Uhm, I really don't think Mohammed was that great, looking at the stuff that he did to create his own version of the OT.
Your view may be just as subjective as my view, but the fact that Islam "borrowed" some texts from the Jewish religion is something noone can deny.

[edit on 2-7-2004 by Jakko]

Mon Deu you are set on this, and in such an enlightened place as Holland no less!

Listen, I'd like to think that I can change your mind on this, and convince your that your theory is just plain ethnocentrism, but it's probably not going to work.

I never said that all Christian music was bad, just the Jesus-Freak pop that Americans seem to enjoy. I quite like most of the traditional Catholic hymn and American gosple music.

Islam has had a positive influence on billions of people through the years and continues to in today's world. For every single suicide bomber and extremeist terrorist there are a million others who live in peace and wish for peace in the world.

If you really want to get into who borrowed what from whom in religion, I could go to task with Christianity for quite a few things that were taken from the European Pagans. But I guess I'm just under the influence of the devil (even though I don't believe in him) for not being Christian.

I do take offense to your ideas, they are hateful and serve only your own ends. Try to be objective, it's impossible to debate with a closed mind.

*sigh*

I think I've laid out my case well enough, gotten some applause from the mods for it, thank you mods, and I really see no point in continuing this. I don't think we can find any common ground. Your little theory is dead wrong, you wish to see why, see above.

If this means I loose in some peoples' minds, whatever, I defended a religion that isn't even mine because it was the right thing to do. I leave with my head held high. I'll keep reading this thread but won't post unless something really amazing is said. I hope that your ideas will change Jakko, I really do, please just listen to what everyone is telling you and meditate upon it.

Good Night, And Blessed Be My Friends
~Astral

mithras, VERY interesting link there, thanks!

You should google Tibetan chanting, I don't have a link myself, but the Budhist monks can individually chant in two keys at once, it's quite amazing and very hauntingly beautiful.

Blessed Be
~Astral

Jakko,

As a fellow Christian, I would ask that you seriously read and consider statements made in this thread by people you consider "non-believers". The point is - and it is the MAJOR point - that there are extremists right now in the Muslim religion that are doing things that the MAJORITY of Muslims do not agree with or believe in. They are FANATICS. And the second point is - and this is the one I'm hoping you grasp - the same thing has happened in the past in the Christian religion. Heck, it is still happening. Bombings of abortion clinics come to mind. This is NOT in accordance with Christian doctrine. This is NOT representative of the majority of Christians.

The difference, so far, when speaking of the fanatical Islamic movements that are causing grief in the world today, is that they are, in fact, minority among the Islamic population. Unfortunately, the Christian history cannot say that. When the Christian fanatics caused their grief in the world - they were the majority - majority by oppression and power - but nonetheless the majority.

We simply have to come to the point that we can say:

I reject your religion for myself...but I accept that it is your religion. Please do the same for me.

and then boogie on down the road of life. We've only got 70-80 years tops to make the most of this life. And making the most of this life is to do all we can for others, and leave the world a better place. And I truly don't believe that God could possibly be happy with us squandering our short chance to be a true love to our fellow man by arguing with that same fellow man about our beliefs over Him.

[edit on 7-2-2004 by Valhall]

Originally posted by The Astral City

If you really want to get into who borrowed what from whom in religion, I could go to task with Christianity for quite a few things that were taken from the European Pagans. But I guess I'm just under the influence of the devil (even though I don't believe in him) for not being Christian.

Wooo, hold on there.
Ignorance is something else than being inspired/influenced by the devil.
The devil and demons can only be in one place at the same time, so claiming that you are under the direct influence of the devil would be foolish, since that's very unlikely.

The problem is that you say that Christianity "borrowed" some things from European Pagans when this is not proven or provable for that matter.
Maybe such a theory did get into this world with help of devil, that I do not know, but I do know (and I did do research, outside of the bible) that the whole "christianity is partly based on paganism/mithraism" is not true.

I do take offense to your ideas, they are hateful and serve only your own ends. Try to be objective, it's impossible to debate with a closed mind.

They are not hatefull at all.
When a group of people is being deceived by the devil, this does not make me hate them. This make me want to pray for them and makes me want to understand them better so I can find out how to help them best.

I think I've laid out my case well enough, gotten some applause from the mods for it, thank you mods, and I really see no point in continuing this.

Hmm well maybe I should be the one to stop posting here then, I never got applause from anyone, let stand any mods.
I was well aware that my "theory" is not only unlikely, but that it's also considered hatefull or insulting for some, when it's not ment like that at all.

Thank you for posting here astral, even though you disagree strongly with my ideas and thoughts, you succeeded in keeping your posts mature without insults in my direction.