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Conspiracy theory about Islam.

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posted on Jul, 1 2004 @ 02:55 PM
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Agreed, we have civilized a lot since both religions were doing wrong. Christianity, in our day and age, is a tool being used for civilizing. Missionaries are always going somewhere to try to civilize the barbarians. But this doesn't mean there aren't the extremists like in Islam. I think some of you have already been through this.

But the biggest reason you cannot say that Islam is inherently wrong is...people who live in civilized countries still practice Islam and they're doing fine! Islam has a place in civilized countries as well. Just look at the countries where these terrorists come from. The terrorists' concern comes from more of a political philosophy rather than a religious ones. We all now what can happen when you mix politics and religion. They don't mix very well and the people essentially go crazy and take on the form of extremism. They are either extremists in the sense of their religion or extremists in the sense of their politics.




posted on Jul, 1 2004 @ 03:38 PM
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That's very well put skadi, allthough I don't agree with some of it.
The Christian religion was never cruel, in the middle ages, humans in general were cruel. The fact that some/a lot christians went along in this does not mean it was right or the Christian thing to do.
You see a religion does not evolve, the followers may evolve though.
The ideas of peace, forgiveness, unconditional love and no hatred never changed through these ages, allthough Christians in general may have found better ways to put this into their lives.

I still think there's a certain sharp edge to the Islamic religion.
There's something about this religion that sets it apart from all other religions. That plus the fact that it's partly based on Christianity, and currently the most problematic religion for this world (generalised), really make me wonder wether satan or demons may have had a hand in the creation and the survival of this religion.

But I guess you'd have to be a Christian to understand these kind of ideas.

[edit on 1-7-2004 by Jakko]



posted on Jul, 1 2004 @ 03:52 PM
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Originally posted by Jakko
The only true example we have of a perfect Christian is Jesus himself. And even though Christians should try to be like him, it does not mean Christian are perfect.

Why can't others be perfect? Also, if Jesus was perfect, was he also absolutely non-violent, no matter others did? Please at least answer that it's not hard, as a good Christian you can be honest.





Why are you afraid to discuss the idea of a perfect human (in the Christian's view of God)?

I'm not, but that's not what this is about.
This is about what I see around me today when I look at the events in this world.

Will starting a new thread mean you answer me? You keep avoiding it!

You only see "your" side. If you went to Palestine you would see the "other side."



What, I bring up terrorists, now you have the "right" to bring up Bush?
As you may have noticed, there are a lot of terrorists doing the same thing, desiring the same Jihad. You can't compare this to the mistakes of Bush. I'm not even going to try to explain why Bush does what he does.

Yes I think I do. There's a lot of American soldiers doing what Bush is commanding. Desiring the same Crusade.



Unless you talked to Mohammed yourself, using his "nature" in this discussion seems a little bit ignorant. Any opinion you have about his nature will just have to accepted by me, right? I don't know his nature like you do...
Understand?

His nature is mentioned in the hadith. Choose that or make it up.

You are wanting me to simply accept that he was a child-molester. We can talk about catholic priests, in that case, but there the "abused" really are abused. But your opinion on what a child molester is not what others see it as. Why should your "refined" laws apply elsewhere and in another time.

In that day and that region the onset of puberty defined sexual maturity. Quite a natural definition, unlike in the modern world where it's an arbitrary age. Did you know Romans had sexual practices involving children and that some "primitive" tribes do even today, as accepted practice?





This is a mistake of logic isn't it? If the focus lies in not doing something wrong, then by logic it is in doing something right. (Doing nothing at all falls into a wrong or right)

No the difference is huge.
It's like some parents raising their kids with reward systems, and other parents raising their kids with penalty systems.
It's the opposite.

I think you're mixing things up.

Whether the system results in a penalty or reward is irrelevant to what I said. You talked about the focus for doing wrong or right, not the result of that action. The result either leads to less happiness (penalty) or more happiness (reward), but there is fear in both cases, the fear of not receiving reward or the fear of penalty.

Sometimes the prospect of reward has a better effect on people, sometimes the threat of punishment does. A rich spoilt brat isn't going behave because you offer him a sweet, but might it you offer him a slap. Sometimes you need penalty and sometimes reward. Allah uses both. There are levels of reward in Heaven.



posted on Jul, 1 2004 @ 03:56 PM
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I still think there's a certain sharp edge to the Islamic religion.


Then what is it, are you sure its not the politics in the region they live, rather than the religion itself. Did you know Christianity is essentialy based on Judaism and that Judaism is essentially based on ancient Sumerian texts!!

Notice that all the major religions, the big 3, came from the Sumer empire.



posted on Jul, 1 2004 @ 04:34 PM
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Mithras, to answer your question. Yeshua said, "Be perfect as my father in heaven is perfect." He wouldn't have said that if there was no chance of being perfect....Now what perfect is I do not know because I'm not it...
He took a whip and ran people out of the temple for selling there. Back in those days there were A LOT of guards on hand so I'd say thats pretty forceful stuff


[edit on 1-7-2004 by KSoze]



posted on Jul, 1 2004 @ 04:38 PM
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I don't think Christianity (and the jewish religion as a part of Christianity) is based on anything.

The sharp edge I am talking about doesn't have to do with their politican situation, allthough the religion probably had direct influence on the political climate of those regions.

As a christian that's been to quite a lot of churches, I know that to atheists a lot of Christians can look like hypocrits. Always being "wise" enough to explain to others what's right and wrong, but not always applying these rules to their own lives.

Even though a lot of christians try to do the right thing, often their mistakes are enlarged by atheists, and used as proof that christians are not that great at all.
Miracles of God are directly thrown into the "mass hysteria/wishfull thinking" corner, and when someone says what he "felt" when he was worshipping God, Atheists say "great for you" and think "what a retard".

I'm used to this part of Christianity, and I have to be carefull that I don't try to "foresee" what atheists might think about my words and actions, because then I wouldn't do or say anything anymore.

The thing with the Islam is...
They don't have miracles. They do not have all these great music bands, worshipping time, a God that forgives you, a God that wants to be your friend, a God that listens to them etc. Yet somehow the people in these churches seem to have a lot more discipline than most Christians. (going to church, praying every X hours)
This discipline, the joyless repeation of all these rituals and rules, remind me of the joyless and disciplined ways that terrorists talk about their "divine purpose", bombing themselves in a crowded area.

It's as if deep inside they know it's not real. As if something inside of them is protesting against the endless repeation of following these rules and regulations without ever asking why.

It's hard to explain, and maybe it has to do with my context. With the summ of everything I have seen that has anything to do with the Islam, I don't know.
What I do know is that my God does exist, and that the allah in the Koran, kind of sounds like my God.
I remember this verse from the bible "satan will come as an angel of light", which points out how this kind of deceit works.
There is almost no difference between the "real" Christianity, and the "fake" Christianity, besides one thing; Jesus.

In the Islam Jesus is not considered the son of God, neither is it believed that he rose from the dead.
The similarities between the Islam and christianity, combined with the fact that Jesus is degraded like that in the Islamic version, combined with the fear, hatred, revenge and pain that the Islamic religion brings this world today, make me wonder what exactly the Islam is.

Could it be that Mohammed was possessed?



posted on Jul, 1 2004 @ 05:09 PM
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Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
First of all, the Christians have NOT been harrassing the Muslims for 2000 years. Islam was founded 500 or so years after Christianity. And, not 100 years after its founding, Muslims went on a vioilent rampage, the jihad, spreading the religion like wildfire.

Christians have been not harrassing Muslims for as long as Muslims have been around, maybe, and the opposite is maybe true too.

That's your summary of Islamic history? Muslims see it a little more balanced. Anyway, no Muslim can deny that in its entirety the empire was spread defensively or peacefully. However during Muhammad's time aggressive or forced conversion of states was not allowed. Beyond this period, corruption in the state happens, the empire crumbles and so on; but even then Islam was generally spread peacefully.

Indonesia (with largest Muslim population) wasn't conquered by Islam, but simply accepted it. Many people are freely accepting Islam today, from all faiths even with the negative media coverage, and this just emphasizes that it didn't need force back then, either.



But the difference? Christianity EVOLVED. With the age of reason, the

How can a religion set by God evolve? You mean man's version of Christianity changed a little but was set aside, inside the state, while sensible foreign policy which had rules, relating to use of force, was established to protect it. This is not evolution.

If you read the rules of war in the Qur'an you will find them far more peace-loving than those in use by many of today's governments. I think it was ahead of it's time, and still is.



Islam did not do this. Islam continues to dwell in the dark ages of human thought. Muslim countries did not accept a seperation of church and state until the west pressured them into doing so. Muslim countries still live well behind the times. Many muslims still dwell in literal translation and thought of the Koran.

Islam will never do this either, the name means submission to God, not to a group of men who make laws. Do you know Islam enough to suggest it "dwells in the dark ages." It's a doctrine, a way of life, that's applicable today - only it tempers certain freedoms which it believes are bad in excess for the whole.



posted on Jul, 1 2004 @ 05:13 PM
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hmmm these discussions always go the same way.

Same things explained over and over again. Same misconceptions, same prejudice, same answers.

Jakko, I think that you don't understand the VERY BASIC concept of islamic faith. Being muslim is NOT, and I repeat NOT about living like Mohammad did, it is NOT about following his way of life. You would know this if you had read the Qur'an. The basic thing, the foundation of Islam is worshiping GOD and God alone, only God. Believers pray to God, you dont have to go to mosque and give them money to be Muslim. You can pray at home too and give money to the poor ( you are actually required to do that if you can ). A Muslim prays directly to God, the prayer doesnt in any way go through Muhammad to God or anything like that. I suggest that you READ the Qur'an and see for yourself. Qur'an is about God and creation of worlds, MANY MANY prophets from the begining of human existance, it is about Heaven and Hell, living a righteous life, and by that I mean general standards like thy shall not kill, it is NOT about how and when Mohammad lived. Do you now understand this basic concept of faith?
You can't even begin to speculate about this religion if you are not familiar with the very basic of it. All your conclusions will be based of false assumptions, therefore pretty much worthless.

You take terrorists as representatives of Islam, yet on the other hand you say that violent Christians are not exactly Christians although they read the same Bible as you do and find in that very Bible a justification for their violence.
You say that we should not take verses of Bible out of context, but you do exactly that with Qur'an, focus on a few misinterpreted verses, or not even focus on Qur'an but other sources and stories.

Are you trying to understand religion or followers of religion? There is a huge difference between those two. Religion itself is divine and peaceful, followers are humans, imperfect, flawed and both good and bad.



posted on Jul, 1 2004 @ 05:16 PM
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I am not a Muslim but I'm one of the few Christians who has read the Koran. I wish to say up front that Muslim complaints about Christianity being a violent religion isn't easily supported. I don't know of a single church or religious group that is out to behead "infidels."

Peaceful Muslims are correct in describing Islam as a peaceful religion. However, from an object point of view, the Koran covers both sides of the street. Peace-oriented Muslims can find much in the Koran to support their position.

But so can the extremists bent on overthrowing every government on earth and turning the world into an Islamic government. Peace-loving Muslims know this, but it's hard to admit.

If anyone disputes this, I'll be glad to offer a long list of verses that would seem to support the Bin Ladens of this world. I'll check back in a week.

www.onealclan.com



posted on Jul, 1 2004 @ 06:23 PM
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The Christian religion was never cruel, in the middle ages, humans in general were cruel. The fact that some/a lot christians went along in this does not mean it was right or the Christian thing to do.


Yes, christian religion has been cruel not one but many times,

This it from Frank Mortyn, and reprinted from Truth Seeker, Vol 119, No.3.

Let it be clear to us all! The worst, the bloodiest urban riots of all time took place in the most Christian of cities, Constantinople in the year 532 CE when christianity took over civilian life.

Meanwhile, where were the humanists? Not much in evidence, unfortunately. The dark Ages were upon Europe.

But across the sea in Athens, we can suppose that there were still a few Philosophers, clan in white, walking quietly amid the tree. If their pavements were slippery, it was because of fruit from olive branches, not blood from tormented bodies, shed by Christian swords.

Today's freethinkers can look with sorrow on the spectacle of death which occurred when Christianity took charge of civil life. The more you know about it, the more likely you are to say to the Christians: "Thank you but NO to your vision of a Christian society" It had its chance. Did Christian City work? Thirty thousand deaths say "NO"

This is a littler something in history to think about.



posted on Jul, 1 2004 @ 09:06 PM
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Originally posted by 2012
I am not a Muslim but I'm one of the few Christians who has read the Koran. I wish to say up front that Muslim complaints about Christianity being a violent religion isn't easily supported. I don't know of a single church or religious group that is out to behead "infidels."

If anyone disputes this, I'll be glad to offer a long list of verses that would seem to support the Bin Ladens of this world. I'll check back in a week.

I don't regard Christianity as violent, if any posts of mine gave you that impression that was to explain the futility of Christians using Muslims' behaviour to attack the Islamic doctrine. I made this clear in the context.

You say Christians aren't out to attack but apparently "Muslims" are; I can assure you this is not how Muslims see it when Bush quotes the Bible and mentions Jesus and God as he sends his army out to pre-emptively attack. At least look at the situation from both sides.

Show just one verse, please, that supports bin Laden, in context.



posted on Jul, 2 2004 @ 02:59 AM
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Some people insist on using history against Christianity, on using the mistakes of people that called themselves Christian, but whos actions had nothing to do with Christianity, against Christianity.It's a little bit easy to play it like this, and quite unoriginal.


newsflash!!!!!!! there is nothing new or original under the sun its all
been done before. i think you have read to much jack Chick



posted on Jul, 2 2004 @ 08:56 AM
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TextSome people insist on using history against Christianity, on using the mistakes of people that called themselves Christian, but whos actions had


Mistake of people? Ha, well everywhere in the news we hear the Islamic fundamentalist, doing terror, cutting heads, been evil, and all along we see the Christian church very much without a work about it.

You know why? because the history of Christianity is as horrible and bloody as the Islamic fundamentalist, but occurs you can not believe that, that was in the pass and we tend to have fuzzy memories about history and whit the way this country teach history no wonder people does not learn a thing.

Open your eyes America and smell the blood of this two religious groups, Christianity and Islamic fundamentalist. One blood maybe old blood and the other one fresh but nevertheless is still blood.



posted on Jul, 2 2004 @ 09:54 AM
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Once again, read the NT and think about how that can be the driving force behind all the horrible things Christians did.
They were not true Christians, because true Christians (even though they make mistake) know better than doing that kind of despicable things.
Repeating this gets old.



posted on Jul, 2 2004 @ 10:45 AM
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They were not true Christians


Then if i am understanding what you are trying to say we must lok back
to the first scism , the first " division of the faith" as it were. That would
be when the original heretic Saul began his drive to take control from James
the Just, and began preaching his own version of the truth based on his
post traumatic "visions". most of the xian beliefs are based on the writings of
Saul or others based on or derived from those teachings.

so it would seem that from its inseption believers in this faith followed not
the Church founded by and headed by people who actually knew, travelled
with, and were taught by the Prophet whos name they took and whos teachings they claim to follow, but the church founded on the teachings
and post traumatic visions of a self professed killer who's knowledge of
the subject was at best second hand.



posted on Jul, 2 2004 @ 10:58 AM
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It's about time that someone told the truth about Christianity and Islam. Frankly, Islam, in my opinion, is a third world religion built upon barbaric foundations. Unless the religion evolves and it's current members begin to not only denounce, but work against extremism, my opinion will not change.

Until Muslims take ownership of what is being done on behalf of their religion... well, I'll just refer to my mini-profile over to the left



posted on Jul, 2 2004 @ 03:56 PM
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I am saying that Christianity fully condemns the actions that you claim, are result of what Christians did.
I don't know why these people did what they did, neither do I know why anyone got the idea they are Christians, but I do know their actions have nothing to do with Christianity whatsoever.



posted on Jul, 2 2004 @ 04:03 PM
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Originally posted by Jakko
I am saying that Christianity fully condemns the actions that you claim, are result of what Christians did.
I don't know why these people did what they did, neither do I know why anyone got the idea they are Christians, but I do know their actions have nothing to do with Christianity whatsoever.



Firstly, you can only speak for Christianity through your perspective. The people concerned considered themselves Christians.
Secondly if you follow the god of Moses, you are in fact following the god of a murderer.

Moses murdered an Egyptian when he saw him beating a Jewish slave. Does the NT justify killing in any of it's passages? The OT certainly does in many places.

So how can you claim that these people weren't acting as Christians? The OT has a killer as one of it's most powerful figures.



posted on Jul, 2 2004 @ 04:09 PM
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Hold on there, the bible doesn't say it's right at all.
It's merely a story/part of history.
Just like David, stealing the wife from an innocent soldier, and making sure he dies, is a story in which it's not directly clear that God condemns his actions.

"The God of a murderer"
Hm?

God created everyone, my God is the God of quite a few murderers...
God is just as well, and evilness will have to be paid for one way or the other.



posted on Jul, 2 2004 @ 04:14 PM
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Originally posted by Jakko
"The God of a murderer"
Hm?

God created everyone, my God is the God of quite a few murderers...
God is just as well, and evilness will have to be paid for one way or the other.


God might have created everyone, but why pick a murderer to be his only spokesman? Of all the people, he chose one who had taken the life of another. It would be understandable if Moses was a great orator and was chosen to put his god's message across, but he wasn't even a great speaker and he had to have his brother do the work for him.

Yeah, sure your god is the god of quite a few murderers, but did he really have to put one of them in charge?

What sort of message do you think that this gave out to the people who you call non-Christian? If their most powerful prophet was rewarded by his god after taking a life, why would they be considered any less Christian?



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