reply to post by ExPostFacto
Thanks for the OP and the response.
Some of this will be like splitting hairs. A lot will be rambling,
There were points like the one about people isolating themselves and living away from others.
I agree with the spirit of it, but causing harm to another has to be defined. There are some details missing.
I spent about 15 years with a group of friends that were if not all, at least most libertarians.
I know at least these people very well and love every one of them. Most became Libertarians after becoming comfortable. They are good, responsible,
self sustaining citizens that work for a living and enjoy the fruits of their labors. They are not bigots, or racists.
I don't want to impose on others any more than I want to be imposed on. But I have seen helpless people needlessly suffer and die because nobody
cared. I can't accept that. I'm an individual but I am a part of a large group of individuals, and I don't expect to have all my desires fulfilled
because that would deny the opportunity of others to have some of their desires fulfilled, and vice versa.
We recently had a disaster in our community. We were hit by a couple of tornados that pretty much traumatized everyone.The reaction was like a movie
script. Most people just started to clean up debris and move fallen trees and branches. 2 Police men with chainsaws were assigned to cut the big stuff
and move it to the sides of the road, it took days.
People helped the police and each other, we got it done. I have 4 sons, the 5 of us did our property,
then the neigbors, etc.. We have a few wealthy people on our block. Not one of them did anything but take care of their own.
They hired day laborers at Home depot, cleared their driveways, and waited for the street to be cleared by me, the police, and the others. How do we
fix this? I don't begrudge them having the resources to hire the illegals to do the heavy lifting, but they had no right to use the road without
helping because they could have, and should have.
Someone could say "Ziggy you all did it voluntarily righ?" I did, but it was not an option to not do it. I felt it was my social responsibility.
I could have stopped at my property but I felt that having 5 able bodied men sit around having lemonade while the old lady next door stood in shock
looking at the 80 feet of tree trunks and branches covering her front porch needed help.Her son is a Veteran with a bad knee. He directed traffic, I
carried his branches.
The wealthy guys down the street took unfair advantage of the street we all cleared.
We have a house on one corner owned by organized crime. They also got a free pass.
I would agree with all your points if they were gone into in more detail. Tolerance of differences would have to be paramount.
How then do we decide who can go where and do what, under what circumstances.
Would communities have all their own laws?
Brunette California has an ordinance that stipulates any black haired person out after dusk unescorted by a Brunette is subject to search and
I have a problem with that. So now I'm pulling away from the Libertarian ideal. Your version says one law "No Harm" does that mean they can make
all the ordinaces they like as long as none of "them" is harmed? or Nobody is harmed? If we have only one law it has to be framed to emcompass every
If I can count on people to be rational, I can release more of my dependence on laws. Fewer laws, less enforcement, less enforcers, smaller GOV. More
rational people, less laws required.
I like the "one law" do no harm. It's beautiful, but like the Constitution is only a framework.
I think we all agree government is prone to corruption. Many believe having many governments in the US would be a good thing. I don't believe
I believe States would degenerate into factions, and we would all go to hell in a basket.
So here is where we may disagree, maybe not.
Assistance should be provided to individuals in hardship situations. Everyone should have the opportunity to be educated, and everyone that can work
If you legitimately can't work we have to take care of you. If your business is part of "the infrastructure" then your business can't refuse to do
work, or provide services to anyone based on the personal prejudice of the owner.
If your business is not part of the infrastructure. Say you are a blacksmith in bumfreak with no road access to your community, no taxes, no draw on
the rest, you have declared yourself "apart" in word and deed.
then you can refuse if it does not cause harm to the individual seeking your services. Why? Because at a minimum the other individual is a human being
and is a part of your larger community that affords you the ability to set yourself "apart" from the rest.
Liberty and oppresion are at opposite ends of the scale but they overlap in practice. Tyrants, and Oppressors have absolute liberty to do as they
Do we want millions, thousands of them, or none of them? The only way we can have none is to put in place laws that apply to all. Thus my
This pursuit of Liberty must not be burdened by Foreign interests, Gov corruption, Corporate crime, criminals, bigotry, or racism. In other words
Libertarian Socialist Capitalist Equality. We are already Socialists, and Capitalists. Let's add Liberty, and Equality.
There lie the real challengess.
Education should be available to all. Equal opportunity has to be available to all. Justice should be available to all.
Charity should be practiced by all.
In an ideal Libertarian world the only enticement to being non productive would be to want to become a sociopath.
Libertarian principles can only be realized if there is a level plane to start with and we don't have that.
The path to what you rightfully seek in my mind lies in a form of American Socialism that is based on our particular circumstances as a nation,
Capitalism has to become non destructive, any monopoly of a resource or service enslaves everyone to the whims of that entity.
If we want to be a Nation, as opposed to a group of associated States then we have to agree on some common rules or we are destined to become feudal
terms of bigotry and racism. You can feel any way you want, believe what you want, as long as it does no harm to those you are racist, and or
Some will be richer than others but it will be a much more equitable exchange of values for everyone if we have Liberty.
This is how I feel. Like you say, let them flame away, I don't care. I'm tired of all the partisan BS, hate, fear propaganda.
Peace out - Ziggy