Proof that Jesus existed.

Originally posted by Romantic_Rebel
reply to post by theRhenn

 

Well I have study Jesus here and there. There are to many dead ends that I end up in. Why I mentioned authentic was to see if Jesus existed and what he was truly like in the past. Maybe he did and he was just a normal guy. Christianity, Islam and other faiths view Jesus in some way or another. I would like to understand the real or original Jesus better.

I can understand.. slightly.

The idea is to understand the message behind the person. The word is the truth of it, not the flesh of the man speaking it. The only real diffrences b/w religions can be simple and small, depending on who you're talkin to and how important it is to them. I think Muslims teach that he was a teacher/prophet, jews teach that he was a rabbi, and christains believe he was the massiah. I'm catholic by birth and couldnt tell ya if he's supposed to be GOD or the son of GOD, but I think it he was supposed to be GOD comming in the Flesh. I dont understand it. If he was GOD in the flesh, why would he pray to himself? Perhaps to be a rolemodel? I dunno. Thats beyond me.



btw OPer, good luck with that.

Originally posted by loves a conspiricy
I personally dont think religion should be tolerated in the 21st century.
If religion had been abolished 500 years ago im pretty sure we would be a more advanced loving civilization.
We would probably all be flying around the universe exploring...but oooooooh no religion has to hold back humanity every step of the way.

What do you suggest we do? Kill em all? Perhaps you would like to operate the guillotine? Do tell.

reply to post by theRhenn


Well real Jews don't believe in Jesus at all. Since they believe the teachings by Christians and Muslims to be against Judaism.
Messiah Truth
Jews for Judaism
Don't shot the messenger. Jews simply have different views on their beliefs then Christians would have.
Jesus in Islam
Jesus in Islam is cool! A lot of the same and a lot of differences.

Originally posted by theRhenn

Good luck.



Do you realise you're a part of a forum that actually exists because of these beliefs? Or do you think that only UFOs and conspiracies should apply? To some, they might be all one and the same. Or is it that you really believe in none of this at all and you're just here to bash and call people nuts for what they believe.

I'm ashamed really. Its just this sorta thing that really has me wanting to stop contributing and just go my merry way. This is exactly why such forums turn to crap, leaving people to search endlessly for a place where they can have CIVIL constructive arguments over such topics.

If you cant be constructive, why reply at all?

I am on ATS because I am interested in conspiracies.
I do believe in some conspiracies and I get an enormous amount of education from this site, most topics are extremely well covered and the debunking powers of alot of the members here are amazing, that does not mean I'm here to see everything get debunked, I am here for the truth.
I have not called anyone nuts, nor do I think 99.9 per cent are nuts.

I have been civil and will continue to.
All I have asked for is evidence, that is all, I'm not bashing anyone, if you find your lack of evidence so frustrating then might I suggest you don't follow this thread.
Peace

Originally posted by Opensourcerer
I believe the Romano-Jewish historian Titus Flavius Josephus (born year 37-38, died about year 100)
mentions Jesus Christ.

Excellent place to start!
The author of this thread asked for FACTS. Here's the first lead.

I have often wondered about the census that was taken when Mary and Joseph entered Jerusalem. Were names taken? Was the record kept or destroyed? That kind of thing. There may be some ancient artifacts with their names on it from that time period.

Originally posted by Monteriano
Roman historian and politico, Tacitus, about 50 AD wrote about Christ and Pontius Pilate's crucifiction of Jesus. He was known as an accurate historian and an honest and factual writer.

Excellent.

Lets look up these fella's and get some links posted ...

reply to post by Romantic_Rebel


That is not fully true. Some jews will say that this Jesus in question existed, but he was not the real messiah. Some will say that he hasnt come yet because that Jesus was supposed to be the king and ruler. Ect ect. There are variances based upon belief. Ive spoken to both types of Jews and also heard mention of something a bit more detailed but I dont remember atm. But thats only hearsay from my perspective.

For those that want proof of the induvidual... Myself... I like to look at it this way.. Militant Agnostic: I Don't Know And You Don't Either!

Good luck with all this. You will not find definative proof. Everyone has their own beliefs as to what proof exists. In the form of documentation other than the bible, very little. Very very little. But if you want to know the person behind the words? Read the words and take them for what they are and you may have a glimps of the one speaking them. As far as who's right? I dont know. But I do know that the Tora was before the new testament and the new testament was before the koran. And the koran was not written then as mohomet was illiterate. It came about in 633 A.D.

For people who truly want to know, here's a start.

en.wikipedia.org...

Also keep in mind there are archaelologists, and historical scholars, that make a living studying this stuff. If there was nothing to the bible, it would have been debunked, long ago. It would seem the more they uncover, the more they discover it to be true. They have access to information that you do not have. They are far more intelligent and have spent more time in schools than you did. For the same reason people who do not understand science shouldn't be debating it is the same reason that people who don't understand ancient history should not talk ignorantly of things they do not understand.

Originally posted by NonKonphormist

Originally posted by theRhenn

Good luck.



Do you realise you're a part of a forum that actually exists because of these beliefs? Or do you think that only UFOs and conspiracies should apply? To some, they might be all one and the same. Or is it that you really believe in none of this at all and you're just here to bash and call people nuts for what they believe.

I'm ashamed really. Its just this sorta thing that really has me wanting to stop contributing and just go my merry way. This is exactly why such forums turn to crap, leaving people to search endlessly for a place where they can have CIVIL constructive arguments over such topics.

If you cant be constructive, why reply at all?

I am on ATS because I am interested in conspiracies.
I do believe in some conspiracies and I get an enormous amount of education from this site, most topics are extremely well covered and the debunking powers of alot of the members here are amazing, that does not mean I'm here to see everything get debunked, I am here for the truth.
I have not called anyone nuts, nor do I think 99.9 per cent are nuts.

I have been civil and will continue to.
All I have asked for is evidence, that is all, I'm not bashing anyone, if you find your lack of evidence so frustrating then might I suggest you don't follow this thread.
Peace

Errrrrmmmm...
"....will produce anything other than a load of religious nuts dictating their beliefs to you as some form of "evidence"."

These words are yours right?

reply to post by theRhenn


Study the links I provided and you'll see where I'm coming from. The Messiah is very different compared to the Christian concept. The Jews back then and today are not looking a savior.
Messiah in Judaism

• The idea of mashiach (messiah) is an ancient one in Judaism • The Jewish idea of mashiach is a great human leader like King David, not a savior • There is much speculation about when the mashiach will come • The Bible identifies several tasks that the mashiach will accomplish • Jews do not believe in Jesus because he did not accomplish these tasks

Why don't Jews believe in Jesus?
The Jews present a good debate and I would believe their interpretation over the text more so then anyone else.

reply to post by Romantic_Rebel


I know this and I know what you are saying. But there are more than just one sect of Jews. I should have worded what I said diffrently. Many Jews believe that this jesus was not THE messiah, that this jesus was ONLY a rabbi. The true messiah would come eventually and be king. The one we all speak of is Joshua ben Joseph (Jesus son of joseph) which they probably had quite a few back in that day.

reply to post by theRhenn


I suggest you go back and read all the posts, those were not my words

reply to post by NonKonphormist


lol sorry bro. You're right. When you responded off of it, I took it as being yours. It's too early in the morning! The post belonged to detachedindividual


The post was originaly responded from his post. I have no idea why you responded back from it

reply to post by theRhenn


Well then you would enjoy what this group of Jews have to say about Jesus.
link

Jews vary about what they think of Jesus as a man. Some respect him as an ethical teacher who accepted Jewish law, as someone who didn't even see himself as the messiah, who didn't want to start a new religion at all. Rather, Jesus is seen by these Jews as someone who challenged the religious authorities of his day for their practices. In this view, he meant to improve Judaism according to his own understanding--- not to break with it. Whatever the Jewish response is, one point is crucial. No one who is Jewish, no born Jew and no one who converts to Judaism, can believe in Jesus as the literal son of God or as the messiah. For the Jewish people, there is no God but God.

Like I said don't shot the messenger. Shot the writer! lol

I say this all the time: Religion is based on Faith, not Logic or evidence. Faith and Logic is like oil and water, can not, will not mix.

Well met guys and gals. I'm done with this one, and all others today. That last one threw me for a really BIG loop. Made me think I was responding to the wrong people! lol Good luck on this but I can assure you, other than what was mentioned about the description of Jesus from Flavius, I seriously dont think you will find ANY other information. You can do a general search on goodle and just about every single topic that comes up with say just that... No definative proof. No one will ever agree on this one. Either the poster knew this or got really really lucky when he asked it

Salute! Onto other topics.. after much needed sleep!

reply to post by Romantic_Rebel


I know that the bible not only written on paper(The bible).
But is also written in the stars for those who do not believe in the son
of God(Jesus). I was looking for the staff and the serpent and the crown
picture of the stars.
Anyway found a link on you tube. Gospel in the stars part 1
I don't know how to attach a video, or haven't post a thread.
But has been entertaining posting replies.
Peace

Originally posted by loves a conspiricy
I personally don't think religion should be tolerated in the 21st century.
If religion had been abolished 500 years ago im pretty sure we would be a more advanced loving civilization.
We would probably all be flying around the universe exploring...but oooooooh no religion has to hold back humanity every step of the way.

I'm sorry, but this type of thinking disgusts me. Care to explain how religion (at least the non-radical kind) has held humanity back from ANYTHING?

Wars are more often being fought over political ideology and greed than religion. I'm certain that without religion we would still find ways to hate each other. At least most religion espouses peace and tolerance.

Do you know what really shouldn't be tolerated in the 21st century? Bigotry.

I do believe he existed but am no longer a Christian. He was a great teacher and told many enlightening things to those who cared to listen to the message. As for the divinity thing, I do not think it is so. Far too many myths and stories exist with similarities to a holy birth and resurrection. The bible itself is not in it's entirety. There are many books that did not make the cut. Jesus was a messenger of truth, love and light so why was anything that Jesus said or did left out? Because some powerful men decided it should be?

The "saved" movement amongest the youth of today is appalling. They fornicate, use drugs, and act horribly but throw around phrases like WWJD like its hello. They are in no way, shape or form living a Christ-like life but are the first to throw stones at anyone who is not "Christian" Accountability for actions? What's that? As long as a man died on the cross for my sins, I can act however I want and still be assured eternal life at the end. What a disservice to humanity to be translating the teachings of someone who offered guidance and answers in this way.

reply to post by Romantic_Rebel


Replace Hitler with Napoleon or Julius Caesar... Cant believe how nitpicky these guys are.... You get my point dont you?

Originally posted by faceoff85
reply to post by NonKonphormist

 

Isn't the proof of Jesus existing as good as any other historical figure having existed? There are NO eyewitness reports on ANYTHING dating back more then a hundred years. I can guess where this thread is going but unless you've SEEN Adolf Hitler, what can make you believe the man is real? Historical written works are the only way to go for our current generation.

I am just curious but are there many Hitlers?
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/19a9ab5cf45e.jpg[/atsimg] Do you mean this one? The one I see right there in that picture? This is the Hitler we have a great deal of still and motion footage of as well as people that actually saw him. Hitler was not all that long ago. I do not understand this stretch. There is absolutely no historical evidence of any kind for many characters like Jesus but Hitler? Yep, I seen him.


Specifically, my point being that if we are going to debate that nothing can be proven to exist outside of what each and every one of us have witnessed for ourselves, that will go nowhere really fast. As well as if we want to negate the very question of the existence of Christ by simply trying to equate the lack of evidence with the abundance of evidence for a relatively recent historical figure. I hope you see how that might seem a tad confusing.