Massive European Pyramids Discovered, page 15

reply to post by Chai_An

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And you're posting as if you've already read up on the subject and all of the points of view...I apologize for the harshness but I cannot see any rationale for your reasoning.

I need solid evidence to support your backing. Your optimism is noble in its essence but fails to give the necessary rationale to support your opinion. If you feel that adequate reasoning is unnecessary then I have no reason continuing this debate because I can state that pink elephants are indeed able to fly and we can leave the argument at that (If you need me to flesh this statement out then quote and respond). Believing that something is possible is not science, it is faith, and this subject should be a scientific evaluation as it is being performed under a "scientific" field. I stress the word scientific because the way this research is being performed borders on pseudoarchaeology. I've said this many times in this post and I'll say it again: "Just because something exists somewhere does not mean it exists somewhere else." An adequate counterpoint is just because something does not exist somewhere does not mean it cannot exist somewhere else. However, the latter point requires evidence to support its upholding, while the former is a true statement that does not require a leap of faith. This pyramid concept was actually put to rest 5 years ago here at ATS and was simply brought back to a life by the OP who found an old video online. Not that it's an uninteresting subject, just that there are too many opinions being thrown around and not enough facts . Counterpoint?

Originally posted by TheChemist1
reply to post by Chai_An

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And you're posting as if you've already read up on the subject and all of the points of view...I apologize for the harshness but I cannot see any rationale for your reasoning.

I need solid evidence to support your backing. Your optimism is noble in its essence but fails to give the necessary rationale to support your opinion. If you feel that adequate reasoning is unnecessary then I have no reason continuing this debate because I can state that pink elephants are indeed able to fly and we can leave the argument at that (If you need me to flesh this statement out then quote and respond). Believing that something is possible is not science, it is faith, and this subject should be a scientific evaluation as it is being performed under a "scientific" field. I stress the word scientific because the way this research is being performed borders on pseudoarchaeology. I've said this many times in this post and I'll say it again: "Just because something exists somewhere does not mean it exists somewhere else." An adequate counterpoint is just because something does not exist somewhere does not mean it cannot exist somewhere else. However, the latter point requires evidence to support its upholding, while the former is a true statement that does not require a leap of faith. This pyramid concept was actually put to rest 5 years ago here at ATS and was simply brought back to a life by the OP who found an old video online. Not that it's an uninteresting subject, just that there are too many opinions being thrown around and not enough facts . Counterpoint?

You posting as if you had read all possible viewpoints and decided no one can have an opinion different than yours. I re-read my posts and for the life of me I can't understand the tone of your message. As a matter of fact I've read about the Bosnian pyramids and I stand by my previous comments. I can recall other instances people spoke with absolute authority saying certain things didn't exist just for it to be shown otherwise such as off the coast of Japan and the mainland of China . So let me get this straight, if a topic matter don't have the general consensus of ATS members it's not factual? Well seems to me you have an opinion you are throwing around as well, and that's ok however you need to know there is always that possibility you could be are wrong. Talking about people needing to bring facts to the table, where's yours supporting your stance?

According to Professor Vrabac, who specializes in paleogeology, there are dozens of similar morphological formations in the Sarajevo-Zenica mining basin alone. The Geological team report on Visocica, based on the data collected in six drill holes at 3 to 17 metre depths, is supported by the Research and Teaching Council of the Faculty of Mining and Geology, as well as the Association of Geologists of Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Claimed photos of discoveries of artifacts made at Visoko "Pyramids" - LINK

Visoko, the former medieval capital of Bosnia, cradles a rich history, including Roman and Illyrian ruins and countless Neolithic artifacts. - National Geographic.

a) No parallels of Romano/Egyptian type pyramidal monuments have ever been located in Europe, given the preservation of greco/romano and pre/prior periods of architecture in other countries, Turkey, Italy, Greece
you would expect to find the same level of preservation here.

b) The "Pyramids" extend far beyond how a normal pyramidal construction would work, they seem to integrate with the bedrock of natural geology instead of sitting on top of it like a man made structure would.

c) Given the level of preservation and sheer quantity of artefacts found in other eastern european countries from these dated periods, you would expect to find much more at such a claimed monumental site as this.

d) I have looked at all the photos pertaining to show parts of the pyramidal structures concerned and am satisfied that it is mostly based on naturally occurring geological phenomenon, I will include examples at the end of this post.

e) Below is a personal quote from Semir Osmanagic taken back in 2006 before excavations were even set to begin.

The current target of the project is to complete excavation by 2012.[9] This is in order to "break a cloud of negative energy, allowing the Earth to receive cosmic energy from the centre of the galaxy.

If this isn't an absolute declaration of pseudoscience, i don't know what is.. This person will literally cling to anything to substantiate his claims to ensure personal popularity, future book sales, and to boost the Bosnian/Herzegovina tourist trade.

Enver Imamović of the University of Sarajevo, a former director of the National Museum of Sarajevo, concerned that the excavations will damage historic sites such as the medieval royal capital Visoki, said that the excavations would "irreversibly destroy a national treasure".[13] Excavations by archaeologists not related to the Foundation in the summer of 2008 uncovered medieval artefacts and led to renewed calls for the government to cancel Osmanagić's digging permits. - Wikipedia

In recent months thousands of tourists have flooded into Visoko to peer at the Bosnian Pyramid of the Sun and its neighbors, the nearby hills christened the Pyramids of the Moon and the Dragon. - National Geographic

Let's take a break for a minute.

The Izmo Guglich Affair.

In February 2008, Izmo Guglich submitted two papers of nonsense camouflaged in pseudoscientific and New Age jargon, signed by a "Dr.Phil. Amer Kovacevic", for publication on Semir Osmanagic's web site, as an experiment to see if that web site, claiming to be dedicated to serious and scientific geo-archaeological research of Bosnia-Herzegovina's cultural and historical heritage, will accept it for publication.

On personal recommendation from Semir Osmanagic, both articles were published immediately and one of them subsequently translated into English by his staff member. This was followed by publishing of another similar article, written by Mr. Osmanagic's associate Davorin Vrbancic, clearly inspired by the nonsense written by "Dr.Phil. Amer Kovacevic".

Since Izmo Guglich announced on his blog that both articles were a hoax and that a "Dr.Phil. Amer Kovacevic" is a fictitious person, there was no reaction from Semir Osmanagic's project web site nor were those articles removed from it. - Wikipedia

Some Photos



Naturally laid sediments, photo taken from Osmanagics personal field report.



Naturally cracked sandstone sediment, being reported as manipulated stone features, photo taken from Elma Okic photographer for bosnianpyramid.com.

There are inconsistencies, small sections of more artificially shaped stones possibly forming floor levels or the bases of wall foundations, more than likely indicating the location of a small settlement possibly from the roman/post roman period.



Interesting photo illustrating above comment, taken from Elma Okic photographer for bosnianpyramid.com

Conclusion.

The Visoko area was inhabited by the Illyirian tribe of Daesitiates. The Roman empire established its rule in 9 AD and built roads and fortresses in places like Kralupi, Seoča and Mokronozi. Area of Visoko was part of Roman province Illyricum. - Wikipedia

I believe that these Naturally occurring geological phenomenon are found very close to pre existing ancient human activity of some description, possibly a small town, possibly an military outpost. I don't believe the archaeology is as expressive as indicated by Semir Osmanagic, and where it is in some cases may have even been tampered with to conform to a personal/political agenda. I believe the lack of credible archaeological resource in countries such as Bosnia and Herzegovina can allow untrained and unqualified people involved to let their passions get in the way of a scientific examination.

As always, as humans we love adventure, we love mystery and we love the unexplained. We feel a need to relate to the past somehow in more ways than need be explained.

Just my two cents anyway.

plex.

reply to post by Chai_An

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Also, as far as credible journalistic, scholarly resources and institutions are concerned the "Yonaguni Discovery" is still being furiously debated with virtually no credible evidence having surfaced apart from some poorly perceived photography.

For such an advanced civilization capable of building in megalithic form, wouldn't one suggest them to have left something behind that is a bit more tangible? We have civilizations from much older periods where artifact evidence remains solid and in huge numbers.

reply to post by xxshadowfaxx

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agree.

and there has to be a reason why the "truth is covered up, we got left with some books that now are religion for so many, scary.

reply to post by Chai_An

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Talking about people needing to bring facts to the table, where's yours supporting your stance?

Your accusation is unwarranted as you have not read the entire thread. I have, on numerous occasions throughout this thread, dug up a number of facts and links related to the topic pointing in the direction of a falsified discovery perpetrated by a pseudoarchaeological expedition. PAGES 5 AND 11 ARE ESPECIALLY PERTINENT (STORMDANCER RE-EVALUATES THESE FACTS ON PAGES 8 AND 9 FOR FURTHER READING) -- I have supplied numerous academic, journalistic, and professional opinions with a wide range of sourcing. Plexus also gives a wonderfully backed statement in the upper half of this page, although he cited a source which I criticize heavily. (WIKIPEDIA)

As to you not quite understanding my tone: If you understood my two counterpoint statements then I am in no way ruling out the possibilities presented, merely expressing doubt in regards to the authenticity of the research being performed. I also discussed the fact that the japanese pyramids are not relevant to this discussion as numerous archaeologists gave support to the idea in its infancy. Please stay on topic in this regard as this falls under my "because something exists somewhere it must exist somewhere else" logic. This is a dangerous game to play as it limits your philosophical vision as to see only that which you desire.

I mean this without trying to make it personal, but your vision is the same as that of all of the other people who believe in the existence of these pyramids. To add to this (maybe putting it in caps will drive it home): I STILL HAVE NOT RECEIVED A SINGLE REFERENCE FROM OUTSIDE THE OSMANAGIC GROUP CONFIRMING THE IDEA THAT THESE HILLS ARE PYRAMIDS. I even supplied possible sources to help the believers out (Ref: Ezra Zubrow). Yet all I have been met with the same personally-critical responses. This is incredibly frustrating because the general template has been: Personal criticism of TheChemist, statement of opinion, bogus confirmation of content knowledge, and witty quip to close. Not a single part of these generic responses has steered me from reaffirming what I have stated. I have given my opinion and facts that these are not pyramids. In order to play ball you must now give me your facts, as I already understand your opinion.

Just FYI...I came into this thread as a believer and left in disbelief...I hope I can convince you of the same...

reply to post by TheChemist1

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I can sometimes understand peoples hesitance in giving Wikipedia the credability it deserves.

Just to back up my point of reference..

That is to say, I only ever use cited quotations from Wikipedia that can be referenced in an outsourced article or other external information source.

Relying solely on Wikipedia and it's contributors for article relevance, bias and factual evidence, would be a mistake.

Thanks for the kind words, I also completely agree with you.

reply to post by TheChemist1

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After our own discussion on this topic, I did more reading on this than I should have probably. Even made a few inquiries.
In brief. Although I very much support independent study of ancient ruins within established boundaries so as not to destroy what eventually may be found there relating to something else entirely. I must say, that given the available information from both sides of the debate, I have come to the conclusion that these are not pyramids. Not that I was convinced they were to begin with. As I had taken the wait and see attitude. But until I see something more substantial from those who are at present administering the site, I just can't buy into it. And I have my reservations about Mr.Osmanagic.

I appreciate the amount of information you posted on this, as it was helpful in leading me to other information I wasn't aware of.

It hasn't changed my mind on the public sector of science. But as I wrote in another thread, just because I have strong reservations about their sincerity, doesn't mean I completely disregard their findings either.

reply to post by TheChemist1 Reading your comments on the Bosnian pyramids promted me to sign up, so thanks for inspiring me to do so. Just before I read your post I had read www.bosnianpyramid.com... . To me this evaluation seems accurate, it also makes no conclusions but only states the facts of the analysis that was conducted useing accepted scientific measurments. I am therefore wondering if you have the courage to read a Analysis that might very well challenge your thinking.

Some time ago Osmanagic spoke approvingly of a report by Nabil Swelim. Swelim has another report. He still calls these hills pyramids, but he is clear that he thinks that you can call a hill a pyramid even if it isn't manmade. He says says "If nature creates a geological pyramid shape, why don’t we give it the proper descriptive term: pyramid hill ?" ; "At Visočica the calculated base is found to be rectangular but in fact there is no physical base for this natural structure." ; "Field archaeology is a tool which can reveal information about the object and if the pyramid is manmade or if there are any human interventions. [...] If no traces are found then our pyramid hill becomes a geological case." ; "archaeological finds, when unearthed, will show the true status, this has not been attempted and until then we may dismiss human intervention." and "If nature creates a geological pyramid shape, why don’t we give it the proper descriptive term: pyramid hill? The arguments on this nomination at Visočica persist because of: 1) little knowledge on PYRAMID SCIENCE, 2) wrong belief that pyramids are MANMADE; and 3) opinions driven by DISAGREEABLE ATTITUDES.!" Report (small pdf file) Doug

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