A question for all religious minded individuals.

I have to post this, a very close friend of mine is a Vatican Nun, I used to live next to their villa in which they cared for older nuns (old folks home for nuns). Today we went to lunch and we discussed many topics, none of which I would ever insult her on for she is a walking 'body of knowledge' having been sent to some of the best schools across the world for over 30 years of her life (she has at least 5 Phd's).
Well someone died in my related family recently from a suicidal drug overdose, the coroner quietly said he wouldn't list it as a suicide, but the amount of drugs in her system was 4 times greater then he ever saw. So today I asked my friend how in the eyes of god this would work, since she was christian. I mean just because the coroners report says it was an accidental overdose doesn't mean in the eyes of god it was. So would she go to heaven or hell?
Well to my surprise she stated the churches view on this has changed, they now see suicide as a disease of the mind. What causes the disease satan, drugs, mental disorder, stress, doesn't matter, god will always make sure they go to where they belong. The church even holds mass and allows burial on consecrated grounds which they used to not allow in these cases.
Now to the big point, if suicide has been deemed a mental illness or 'satans' influence' in the eyes of the church, what about pedophilia? Is this a suitable angle for the church to hide there own to avoid prosecution? I mean if god knows these people are just manipulated by satan, then they should be innocent, right? Or if I am a priest and sexually molest a child can I just say satan made me do it?

I find pedophiles to be the worst form of human aggression toward another individual, I personally could never forgive these individuals for I would commit suicide before partaking in such an act.
Please, faith driven masses, clarify this topic for me. (I am being serious)

reply to post by AnteBellum


First, condolences for your loss and may the healing begin.
Secondly:

Is this a suitable angle for the church to hide there own to avoid prosecution?

Exactly, this will be classified as mental illness and grant the accused not only a chance to avoid justice, but to be kept tucked away in the church business too.
This stuff is sick, but if someone is "qualified' to become a priest or figure in the church, it ain't Satan or a mental illness that makes them prey on kids, it's because they are animals who choose their own desire over what's right and wrong, as well as another persons personal freedom.
To hell with them yes, but first jail and castration, imo!

Peace,
spec

Originally posted by AnteBellum
Well to my surprise she stated the churches view on this has changed, they now see suicide as a disease of the mind. What causes the disease satan, drugs, mental disorder, stress, doesn't matter, god will always make sure they go to where they belong.

It amazes me that "the church" can just change their view on something to make is a lesser offense. I mean, seems to me that if it was wrong at one time, it's still wrong, unless of course, God actually spoke to the Pope and told him it was OK now to commit suicide...

It sounds very suspicious to me and I think you have a very good question about other "diseases of the mind". It''s very possible that the church is looking for some shelter from it's pedophile priests. As a victim of a pedophile, I hope not.

I personally could never forgive these individuals

Just a side note - forgiveness is something I do for myself, not for someone else.

reply to post by AnteBellum
AnteBellum,

A lot of times the higher the education of the world the less common sense and a getting above God. The law of Love defines sin and He tells us He will be in us as the Father was in Him. Then with His indwelling we can walk as He walked and pleased God.

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

We can do nothing of ourselves to overcome the evil one. Our only hope is He in us and then Satan is a defeated foe. When we confess our sin in true repentance He forgives us and tells us as He told the woman.

Joh 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

We really have no excuse for sinning and we should strive to walk with Him, we only fall when we put him out.

Truthiron.

Hi AnteBellum

You asked your friend what it means in the eyes of God, and she's instead told you what it means in the eyes of the Catholic church.

I feel that the Bible contains a more accurate measure of God's stance on things than that which the Vatican declares. To my recollection the Bible does not pass judgment on suicide, but it does indirectly touch on paedophilia...
- Sex outside of marriage is prohibited
- Homosexual sex is prohibited
In most cases paedophilia would break both of those laws.

I understand where you are going with this though. You want to know where does the church draw the line, and I think that's a good question. I don't feel that the Catholic church speaks for God and I feel that they have been too lenient with pederast priests.

Re Truthiron

You wrote:

"A lot of times the higher the education of the world the less common sense and a getting above God."

Is that:

1/ Common sense = God

or is it:

2/ Common sense + God

In case of 1/ you'll have to clarify a bit on your definition of common sense, because based on a selfcontradictory book, which is interpretated any old way, christians fight, excommunicate and 'heresy-fy' each other constantly. Some of the bloodiest and darkest periods in christianity have been inter-christian conflicts.

The only thing 'common' in extremist christianity is the obsession with dominance, violence and invasion. And the 'sense' (as in sensible) part of 'common sense' are non-sense doctrines, which only a believer can find any meaning whatsoever in.

In case of 2/ you'll have to make yourself as schizoid as your 'god' seems to be, and live your life with a multiple personality.

But to return to the OP. What happened to infallillibillity, or for the deep thinkers .... infallillibillity about infallillibillity (for the less deep thinkers: The church(es) and the bible(s) are right, because they say so themselves). No matter, that there at one time were three contemporary popes, who all simultaneously were infallillibillible in each their different way....

...no matter that doctrines regularly are brushed up cosmetically with a lot of embellished NEW fairy-tales, so we don't have a geocentric 6000 year old universe competing with science these days......

......and no matter that most christians have a very vague and imprecise idea about this 'satan' guy, who's supposed to take all the blame (together with sinning mankind), when 'god's creation' appears to be a wizard's apprentice job, while 'god' gets the praise, when things occasionally turn out functional.

My personal answer to the implied question in the OP is: REAL common sense can give some answers. But that's for the strong of mind, who can live without fantasies to fill out the the white spots on the existential map.

I can be more specific on request, e.g. when the retoric hardcore fundies arrive at rescue.

If a man sins, he sins.... end of story, he is guilty. Pedophiles are not innocent. Even if their actions are influenced by Satan man makes a choice, either to listen to Satan or not. If we listen we are guilty just as if it was fully our own idea. Without repentance these people will end up in Hell.

Now that being said. If a man sins, and later repents, and takes Jesus as his savior and payment for his sins they will go to Heaven. All men can be forgiven. Should they be punished for such things? Of course!! They are guilty. However they can still be forgiven and enter into Heaven.

Now as for suicide, the way it use to be thought of is if someone killed themselves they have committed murder, and since they are dead they had no chance of repentance and therefor was not forgiven and went to Hell. However the thought now is that Satan is able to cause certain people under certain conditions to quite literally lose their minds. Now if a person is not in control of their own thoughts and happens to commit suicide under that condition, it might not cause them to go to Hell. A man cannot sin a sin that he never realizes is a sin, which is why children are considered innocent. They don't realize the difference.

If a person kills themselves in a true state of insanity they are innocent of that particular sin.

However when a person commits pedophilia in a sate of insanity, when that person comes back to themselves and realizes their actions they now know they have sinned and are therefor guilty.

However not all pedophiles are in a complete loss of control due to Satan, just as not all suicide cases.

It's kind of a case by case basis, whether one will go to Heaven or one to Hell I cannot say, God shall be the judge, He always knows the full story behind our actions and the reasons behind them and what the final consequence will be. And I am certain that He knows what he is doing.

Re Jermicide,

you don't really live up to my expectations of fundie extremism, but you'll do for now as a debate partner.

Starting from a fundament of talking snakes with legs, geocentric universes, multiple-personality 'gods' etc can be a risky business. The stor(e)ies (meant as both mental architecture and as narratives) build upon such faithbased assumptions, can for the non-believer or the different-denomination-christian appear to be subjective speculations similar to 'how many angels can dance on a pin'.

But I'm glad to see, that you presented your case more as an opinion than as an 'ultimate truth'.

Sorry that i am not a complete "fundie". I am however a Christian, I believe the Bible, every last word of it, and i fully believe in God. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. However to strap oneself down to a particular denominational viewpoint, or a strictly fundamental viewpoint would be foolish. No man can know everything, and all men can be wrong. To say "This is this" and "That is that" would plain be wrong. To say different would be to strap down God to your own mindset which is impossible, no one knows the mind of God. What i do know is that whatever it is that He does will be right, and just. Are we to judge God? Are we to attempt to limit Him? Simply no. I can answer a question according to my own thoughts, what little I, or anyone else for that matter knows about God, and by what i believe is right, and i can attempt to back it up with fact or with logic but in the end, it is always possible to be wrong.

However even if i am wrong, God shall not be, whatever it is He does will be right, am I always to know what that is? No. So to answer a question based on, Fundamentalism, Denominational beliefs, or with enough ego to say "I know the mind of God" would have been unfair to the asker. I hope my answer will be seen as my best attempt on a difficult question based on the knowledge and beliefs i have, not to persuade, simply to present my answer for what it is.

Question: what happens to the previous suicides that have been in Purg and hell all of this time?? They get a reprieve or is purg and/or hell a lie?
Question: how can God be infallible and omnipotent or omniscient.. if he didnt know it was a mental defect to begin with??

Seems to me that the Vat/pope is fallible and not God or His word, even though Cathiolics believe that the pope IS infallible.. or are supposed to anyway. This would point to the vat being beyond corrupt concerning this pope or a total fraudulent religion. I also hear they selling indulgences again... sigh!


Im not a Catholic, but Im knowledgeable concerning Catholicism and one of my best buddies from college is a Jesuit priest now.. we still keep in touch. In fact, Id have probably married him if he wound up loving me more than God in the end! LMAO! Oddly enough, MANY Jesuits, or the "professor priests" as I call 'em, disagree vehemently with the last 2 popes changes in many areas. Tommy has always been very frank and candid with me concerning a multitude of issues.. I can call or email him and get ya a direct quote if you want.

I will say this also : Given my long time relationship.. from 1985 to present.. with a Jesuit, there definitely ARE priests out there who arent pedophiles or whoremongering fruitloops. There are just some men ( priests) and women ( nuns) who are totally capable of chastity and real love at the same time. He has suggested to me in the past that with some priests, especially ones in the last 40 years, they are joining the priesthood for the same reason some join the military.. as in them having no true calling, but a vocation of free education, easy work, housing, food, care, and sometimes even easy access in a power of position over people who they want to victimize. Like I said.. he's darned frank about his feelings on the Church, Vat and priesthood!

reply to post by Advantage

Question: what happens to the previous suicides that have been in Purg and hell all of this time?? They get a reprieve or is purg and/or hell a lie?

Great point! I hope someone can answer it. Though maybe it rests as a mistake by the church and not god. But you are right what reparations have the church made to these souls condemned throughout history.

First let's talk about the Church a bit, I myself am not a catholic. However in my viewpoint Catholicism might as well just be another denomination, not a different type of church. As long as they got Jesus, they're ok with me. Buuuuuuut, the Pope is not infallible. All have sinned and fallen short. All men can be wrong. If there could have been an infallible person, then perhaps that man could have died for our sins, but there wasn't, only God is infallible that's why it took Jesus.


Now as for God being infallible, who is to say he did not already know about a mental condition, or an attack from Satan, or any other underlining factors? I say He did know, it rains on the just and the unjust, sometimes these things happen, exactly why? I don't know. But I believe that because God knows of these things is the reason He can make the right judgment of whether or not a person is guilty or innocent of such things. Say a person suffers brain damage due to an auto accident. The damage to the brain causes said person to hear voices and to see blinding flashes of light for months until it drives them nuts. They commit suicide. Now when they stand before God is He going to say "sorry I can't let you in you killed yourself" the person would respond "it wasn't my fault it was my brain injury" would God then respond "oh..... sorry I didn't know about that"? NO!!!

God knows the reasons even when we ourselves are too insane to even realize the reason we did something. He will take these things into account, because He knows about it, and He is just.

Now "Purg" as you call it...... in my opinion does not exist. The closest thing in the Bible that i can find is The Bosom of Abraham or "Paradise" a waiting place for the righteous dead. This place is where Jesus went when He died. Luke 23:43 Jesus says "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. " speaking to the thief on the cross beside Him. Now once Jesus died He went there and took the righteous dead with Him when He ascended. This place would no longer be needed, the ancient Jews needed it because sacrifice of animals could only cover up sin, not get rid of it, these people were waiting in paradise because God was simply overlooking their sin for the moment, Jesus came and took that sin away.

Now to believe on Christ for your salvation requires no waiting period, He takes sin away, doesn't just cover it up to be taken care of later. For the Jews though there is a possibility that it is still done this way, I for one am not sure.

This place called Paradise I believe is where Catholics get the idea of Purgatory, why exactly I do not know.

Now with that there are no suicide souls in Purgatory (unless maybe Jews, still not sure on that one).
Since the Catholic Church used to claim all suicides resulted in Hell there wouldn't have been any there to begin with. But since God in His infinite wisdom, love, and justice would know which suicide cases were sinful or not He has already made the decision on where each soul is at, He is not reeling with the news that the Church changed it's mind and trying to get innocent souls out of Hell, if they were innocent they are with Him already no matter what the Church decides.

Remember.

The Church is meant to be a tool of God's, God does not change Himself because the Church thought of a different idea.

I think I covered it all........ at this point my brain is all twisty.

reply to post by Jermicide




You asked about catholics, I asked rhetorical questions and I gave an opinion.

Re Jermicide

Hope you understand, that it was not meant offensively, but with some humoristic intent.

It always gladdens my grumpy old heart, when christians like you emerge, showing some common sense on the many levels in the makings of a religion.

Even if I am far from sharing your specific religion, I share some of the attitudes you have, concerning what I believe is up and down in life. And the most important for me is maybe demonstrating whatever 'truth' I believe in as worthwhile, rather than preaching it, or worse, enforcing it on others.

And hence my former sarcastic comments on this thread. If an ideology resorts to dishing out predigested answers, answers based on the whims, political or religious ambitions and questionable competence be any 'authority', there will always eventually turn up some 'better' information, knowledge or understanding, not based on the uncertain sand of leaders formulating inflexible doctrines, but on somewhat more solid ground.

Very, very few people today would believe in a geocentric 6.000 old universe, instead of the present scientific model (I don't believe this scientific model is perfect, far from it, only closer to 'reality'), so naturally some existential uncertainty can arise. A christian is forced to accept two contradictory 'realities' at the same time, if s/he wants to believe everything in the bible.

Some flexibility is needed to reconcile opposites into an inclusive whole, and I'm not saying, that religion alone is to blame for having rigid attitudes. Classical science, pre-quantum mechanics, saw itself as the new 'priesthood' of 'truth' and threw the baby out with the bathwater, by denying the valuable parts of religion.

Whereas outdated doctrines are outdated doctrines, how difficult it may be for some traditionalists to accept it. In my youth I worked together with a very pleasant person (we were teachers), he was gay, and at the same time priest in a liberal catholic church. There were NEVER any doubts about his honesty, integrity or decency from students, parents or the other teachers.

Now such a person and such a christian denomination would probably be considered heretic by other christian denominations. They had taken the liberty to change some rules. Personally I can only applaud it.

-------------------

After all these relatively off-topic ruminations, I can finally get to the topic of the thread, by suggesting, that information 'outside' church-authority or doctrines can assist in answering the question put here. With 'outside' I don't mean any hostile or threatening information, but something functioning as a supplement to those who believe in some variety of christianity.

Psychology and psychiatry can (though they are still in their infancy as sciences) help in establishing e.g. the 'responsibility' aspect in any person committing such abominations as pedophilia. Just as some paranormal experiences (and even epinoia) now can be explained as a result of epilepsy, there are certain medical conditions, which can be measured objectively and clinically, which can give individuals demonstrating unacceptable behaviour a 'clean responsibility bill' because of insanity.

In the case of an alleged 'satan' the ultimate responsibility will fall on the church itself, as it (the church) is supposed to be THE authority on the subject, not science.

But no matter what, the church as an organisation failed. I do not condone the hushing up, but shuffling these priests around from parish to parish is unforgivable. They should have been removed completely and immediately.

The outcome, a thorough springcleaning in the church(es), is a double-edged sword, especially for the Vatican, because a central doctrine, ineffability, now is under siege and this will have a domino effect. If ineffability in itself is questionable ALL other doctrines can be questioned, and the whole thing can crumble in a few years. The only way out is a good, long introspection by the church(es), acknowledging the rotten parts and then seriously changing.

Sorry, I got carried away and continued too long, never quite arriving to point. Maybe some more precision later.

I agree that the church has failed in it's responsibilities in many cases, the Church was meant to be the bride of Christ, to help others, to be a group of moral, responsible, caring, faithful individuals working together to show the world Christ. In many cases it has become more of an organization or a social club, where people get together to tell stories of what other people do wrong, or to show the world how holy they are. These things quite frankly are wrong. The bible says that our righteousness is as filthy rags. Therefore what is the point of a Christian going and being like "look at me, look at me"? That is foolish. To God to do so, all he is seeing is a nasty dirty bit of cloth.

Furthermore, when the Church becomes an organization it fails at one of it's most basic of rolls, John 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments.", not, if you love me make your own commandments, not if you love me make rules for others. NO!!!

As Christians we are called to follow the rules set by God. Not to make our own rules.

So for the Church to say that a person will or will not go to heaven or hell for this or that, and cannot point to a scripture where God says "yes this is so" then they should just let God take care of it and stop trying to force their own ideas onto others simply because they feel they can, but to go to the true purpose the Church was allowed to be set up in the first place. Mainly, to follow Christ for the world to see and to say "wow, what's going on here?" To do otherwise would be to make your organization into god. God should be the one makeing the Church what it is.