TSA, does it have the right?

reply to post by Hefficide


It isn't apples and oranges! (We really need an exasperated smiley) You're admitting that you don't trust the government, yet you somehow trust that they're not gonna screw this up? I'm confused here. I see that as being contradictory. It's kinda like if you hand a man a knife and he stabs you in the leg, you probably shouldn't hand him a gun.

As with my comment on courthouse pat downs, I have NEVER been patted down at a concert or sporting event. I've seen a couple of peopl eget patted down, but it was following them being given due process and being taken into custody for some other violation of the law... that is apples and oranges. The TSA is violating people's right who have committed no crime, haven't been accused (officially) of any crime (then again, habeas corpus died awhile back), and are being utterly deprived of any due process of law.

Originally posted by Exuberant1

Originally posted by VreemdeVlieendeVoorwep

Why is there this need to complain about everything?

He isn't complaining about everything.

He is standing up for my freedom and he is doing a good job exposing you for what you are.

Standing up for your freedom? Seriously, by denying a body search, you are standing up for your freedom?
Do you even know what it is like to fight for your freedom? You like slinging the word freedom around, like an activist fighting for civil rights, but are you truely prepared, or even aware what it involves fighting for your freedom?

And exposing me for what i am? And what is that. if i may ask?
Someone who does not make conspiracies out of nothing? Cause that is what is seeming to happen here.

Vvv

reply to post by burdman30ott6


My life experience has varied apparently. I go to a lot of concerts and have been patted down at every single one for at least the last ten to fifteen years.

As for not trusting the government not to screw this up... That's seems to me a bridge to cross when we get to it. If we want to argue about things that have the potential for abuse starting here is superfluous... we need to go back quite a long ways and fix things like the Patriot Act 1 & 2, the Military Commissions Act of 2006, etc.

Again, it's just not easy for me to make the jump from "pat search" to "death of freedom as we know it".

It probably will be lost in this debate, but if we'd have had pat searches of this nature eleven years back, the New York skyline might not look the way it does today.

~Heff

I'd rather die FREE than live as a slave.

You say that very easily mate. Do you mean it though? You will rather DIE than having a search at the airport?
Is that what you are saying?

You are making a very big leap from a airport securtiy check to fighting for you COUNTRIES freedom.
I fail to even grasp the connection between the two.

VvV

I think there are some people out there that would enjoy getting groped. But seriously, I don't have any answers to this. So if they stop it and a terrorist gets through and bombs a plane, the government will say we told you so. I do agree it's really crossing over on an individual's right. I don't have to worry about it, because I don't fly. If they had a robot doing it inside a private booth, do you think people would still be upset?

Originally posted by Hefficide
Originally posted by jfj123
I'd rather die FREE than live as a slave.
Why do you think it's ok to give up CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS ?
FREEDOM has a price.

It's so easy to spout rhetoric and speak in definitives and ideals in the abstract. But would you look in the eye of a child who lost their father to a preventable terrorist act and say "It's OK. Your Dads death was necessary for our freedom"?
We do it everyday a soldier dies my friend.

It is absolute hyperbole to equate increased security at airports as "slavery".

Not at all. It's not reasonable to take away ones rights to travel freely within the borders of his/her country.

You do realize that these types of restrictions and searches already existed for travel to many other nations long before this week of TSA paranoia, right?

Please post evidence to support this as the TSA themselves have said these procedures are new. That being said, are you suggesting the TSA is lying to the American public?

I have had two different jobs which involved being pat searched and having my possessions (Coats, briefcase, bags, etc) searched on a daily basis this was not only normal, it was mandatory. There was an easy out to avoid this. I simply could quit the job if I didn't agree.

What people like you aren't getting is that this is not a pat down. This is not searching a briefcase. This is far beyond that. You have the option of either having the government take a nude photo of you which will be saved and at some point will end up all over the internet
OR
TSA will fondle your genitals, your wife's breasts and your kids genitals. They will traumatize your family in the name of safety. And in the end, these procedures will NOT make us any safer just less FREE.
Oh sure, we can not travel. We could go by train, boat or bus.....guess what will happen next? Yep, we'll be searched.
So then we'll just travel by car. Then you know what will happen? We will be required to file travel papers before leaving our designated, gated areas. But don't YOU worry, they'll tell us we'll be safe.

You can simply NOT utilize airlines - private business entities - if you disagree with their security policies.

But the TSA is not part of those private airlines. The TSA is government owned.

Contrary to the rhetoric here, you do not have a Constitutional right to fly. There is no rape of freedom here.

Anytime a person is restricted from moving freely within the confines of their country, due to liberty restrictions, freedom is lost. You cannot fly unless you agree to be unlawfully searched without a warrant. Unless you agree to have your privacy invaded.

There is no violation of your rights.

You just don't get it. So when a government official knocks on your door and says they need to search your house to make everyone more safe, what will you do? Nothing is being forced upon you You don't need to own a house right? Just live in a tent, it's simply.

Let's cover that one more time because it's important... Airlines are private entities which have the right to secure their businesses.

But they don't have the right to violate the CONSTITUTION. Nobody does.
Not the airlines.
Not the TSA.
Not you.
Not me.

To me you might as well be screaming that we need a revolution in this country because you are subject to metal detectors and pat downs when entering a courthouse.

metal detectors and pat downs are much different than what's going on in airports right now. To compare these things is completely disingenuous.

Brave men and women have died to protect our FREEDOMS and every time we lose one of those FREEDOMS, we spit on their sacrifice.

Originally posted by VreemdeVlieendeVoorwep

So you believe that anything is reasonable to be safe.
Lets continue that logic.
You may no longer travel without papers.
You may be stopped while driving, questioned and detained without cause at any time.
Your house may be searched at any time without warrant or cause.
Of course the government will need to keep track of you while you travel so you will be tattooed with a set of numbers.
All of your banking may be investigated without cause at any time.
Your friends and family may be interviewed and detained at any time.
Your children will be cavity searched.
etc...
Welcome to the fourth reich !

Again, don't twist my words to fit into your hysteria about state security. I am commenting on the searches conducted at airports. I am not saying anything about houses being searched and being detained unlawfully.
You see this is what happens everytime there is some new thing the media gives attention too.

I'm not twisting your words in any way. These are the logical next steps to keep us safe. If you can justify the new airport security and even body cavity searches to keep us safe, you must also agree by default, everything else. You can't have it both ways.
We all know there are terrorists in this country RIGHT NOW! And they are living somewhere right? That's why the government needs to tap all the phones, the internet, text messages AND that is why they need to search your home.

People aren't fed up just because of this. They're fed up because it's this and everything else and people are starting to wake up and realize that if they don't say something, soon they won't be able to.

Hysteria errupts over something that is not such a big issue in the first place.

Hey what's a little CONSTITUTIONAL violation??? I mean it's in the name of safety right? DUH !

You get searched at the airport, you get on the plane, knowing everyone was thoroughly checked, and it is safe. You feel safer knowing it was done.

AGAIN, people don't feel safer and they are NOT, I repeat, NOT safer with these new procedures.

This is done for YOUR own safety.

No it's not because it doesn't make us any safer. What are they doing it for ? It's not safety so you tell me.

It is absurd. Just accept it, it is for your own good. vVV

You may no longer travel without papers.
You may be stopped while driving, questioned and detained without cause at any time.
Your house may be searched at any time without warrant or cause.
Of course the government will need to keep track of you while you travel so you will be tattooed with a set of numbers.
All of your banking may be investigated without cause at any time.
Your friends and family may be interviewed and detained at any time.
Your children will be cavity searched.
etc...

JUST ACCEPT IT, IT IS FOR YOUR OWN GOOD !!!!
Are you starting to get it yet?
You've been conditioned to think this is for your own good. You, mr. sheep, will be conditioned to think that everything else I listed will be FOR YOUR OWN GOOD !

Originally posted by BigTimeCheater
reply to post by VreemdeVlieendeVoorwep

 

Ah so you think violating peoples bodies, let alone their civil liberties, is ok if the government claims "its for your safety"?

Seriously?

Makes you wonder if they work for the TSA
HUH???

Originally posted by burdman30ott6
As with my comment on courthouse pat downs, I have NEVER been patted down at a concert or sporting event.

You make an excellent point.
I've been in a courthouse many times...no not as a defendant ...and NEVER, not once, seen anyone patted down. Nor have I ever seen anyone patted down at a sporting event or concert. NOT ONCE.

Good posts ! Thanks !

Former Israeli security (best in world) chief says these methods are a joke.

TSA has no clue

so toss away millions to make it look like they are actually doing some good

Originally posted by VreemdeVlieendeVoorwep

I'd rather die FREE than live as a slave.

You say that very easily mate.

Not at all. I take that very seriously mate.

Do you mean it though? You will rather DIE than having a search at the airport?
Is that what you are saying?

YES. I'd be more willing to get on a plane if there were no invasive searches even if the theoretical risks of a terrorist attack were higher. Now above and beyond that, we are no safer with these new procedures....so why do we have them? You tell me.

You are making a very big leap from a airport securtiy check to fighting for you COUNTRIES freedom.

To keep our FREEDOM, everyone must fight for it. Some in small ways and others on a grand scale such as a US Soldier does.

I fail to even grasp the connection between the two.

That's your bad, not mine.

Originally posted by JerryGahan
Former Israeli security (best in world) chief says these methods are a joke.

TSA has no clue

so toss away millions to make it look like they are actually doing some good

You are correct !
This is not security.
This is security theatre. They are making it look more secure but in actuality, we are no safer.
Thanks for the post !

reply to post by jfj123


It is funny.

They don't realize how many veterans post on ATS.

reply to post by jfj123


Why do you stoop now to the level of name calling? So I am Mr.Sheep now?

And suggesting i work for the TSA. Man, please, i beg you don't do this. Don't make this a personal mud slinging match.

You do seem like the typical very patriotic american citizen. And, there is nothing wrong with that. It is very good to be patriotic.

When your judgement gets clouded though, by a swooping media campaign to derail what your goverment, which you voted into power, to make its citizens more secure, then it becomes strange.

You keep on rattling on about the TSA being in the wrong, and there is some substance to your story. Which i do not agree with in the whole.

But my question to you is this: What do YOU think then are TSA doing by conducting these searches? What is their agenda?

I would love to hear your answer on this. Then i will discuss it further.

Vvv

Originally posted by VreemdeVlieendeVoorwep
reply to post by jfj123

 

Why do you stoop now to the level of name calling? So I am Mr.Sheep now?

It's not an insult but a descriptor.

And suggesting i work for the TSA. Man, please, i beg you don't do this. Don't make this a personal mud slinging match.

The way you're defending them, it seems that way.

When your judgement gets clouded though, by a swooping media campaign to derail what your goverment, which you voted into power, to make its citizens more secure, then it becomes strange.

I've been complaining about these changes for YEARS! I've been complaining about the scanners since the bush administration so obviously this statement does not apply to me.

But my question to you is this: What do YOU think then are TSA doing by conducting these searches? What is their agenda?

And that was my question to you.
These new procedures do not make us any safer so obviously they're not doing it to make us safer. It could be theatre. To make it look as if we are safer maybe???

The TSA themselves admit that decoy agents are still getting onto planes with decoy weapons and bombs.
Other countries think our security procedures are a joke and ineffective.
Nobody wants these procedures.
So you tell me why they do it???

reply to post by jfj123

So you tell me why they do it???

If you do not even know why they do it, why then so actively and vehemently campaign against it??

I believe they do it for our security, because the goverment tells them to do it. There that is my answer to the question.

Now tell me why you think they do it? And if you do not know, why protest so against it?

How can you be anti-something if you do not even know its purpose?


vVv

Originally posted by VreemdeVlieendeVoorwep
If you do not even know why they do it, why then so actively and vehemently campaign against it??

Honestly it doesn't matter why they do it as legally they should not be able to do it.

I believe they do it for our security, because the goverment tells them to do it.

1. The TSA is the government.
2. It doesn't improve security. Since it doesn't improve security, they don't do it for security.

TAnd if you do not know, why protest so against it?

Would you protest against hitler even if you didn't know why he wanted to kill all the jews?

How can you be anti-something if you do not even know its purpose?

I don't need to know, for sure, why something is wrong, only that it is wrong.

Now let me ask you. Since you don't know either, why wouldn't you at least want to find out why they're doing it?

reply to post by VreemdeVlieendeVoorwep


perhaps i can help here, they do it to give you a false sense of security, or because they have to do something to make you believe that your tax dollars are being spent wisely, or maybe because the privately owened TSA donated millions to political campaigns, or maybe they do it for the same reason that you eat an elephant "one bite at a time". you take to big of a bite you have problems. so, in order to eventually take away all of your rights, they need to do it one bite (right) at a time.

reply to post by jfj123


Absolute bullcrock once again....

If they don't do it to improve security then why do they do it? Is it because they "want to strip the rights of american citizens?"

If that was the case then why not search everyone?

It's almost sad to see so many people frightened of being touched by a stranger.

Originally posted by Death_Kron
reply to post by jfj123

 

Absolute bullcrock once again....

If they don't do it to improve security then why do they do it? Is it because they "want to strip the rights of american citizens?"

If that was the case then why not search everyone?

It's almost sad to see so many people frightened of being touched by a stranger.

Read one post above yours. that poster had a good explanation.
My statements are factual. Don't believe me, check them out for yourself.
The scanners don't work.
TSA decoy agents are still getting through both the scanners and pat downs.
So what's the point?
If the new measures are not effective, which they're not, why do it? What do you think?