Why was ground zero so hot for so long?

The whole bunch of reasons working toegether produced this magic fire where plastic was burning without producing black smoke, gas burned, but no flames or explosions due to accumulated gas under the rubble oh and a coal mine and gas fed pit has been compared to wet office paper. Yeah right, that story has more holes than swiss cheese. Not to mention THAT THERE WAS NO FIRE. The question is why was ground zero so hot for so long? That does not imply a fire. And what do you mean by silently? Mutliple explosions have been heard and the towers did not exactly come down quitely either. Id like to hear more about that nano thermite that has been found. Something melted some of the steele. Burning office furniture does not do that. I think you need to look up the pics of ground zero again.

As opposed to you debunkers, who claim to have all the answers that turn out to be plain wrong, we are looking for answers and do not pretend to have all the answers. I am getting the impression you are not so much interested in the truth. I think you just want us to shut up and be like mmkay. Guess thats why you call us truthters. Is that why you say LOL a lot?

What about that van driven by the Mossad that set off bomb dogs? I wonder what was in there and what it had to do with the traces of nanothermite found. Something did bring down the towers and it sure as hell was not a fire when we look at this.

www.scienceof911.com.au...

and this is not what an building collapsing looks like this is what an building EX PLO DING looks like

www.saunalahti.fi...

Here is the collapse of a building by comparison you will notice the lack of explosions

www.youtube.com...

So what about mossad driving around in a van that got the attention of bombsniffing dogs? What about traces of nanothermite that have been found? What can it do how is it different than regular thermite? Steele has been melted, something caused the steele to melt and it was not office chairs it was not paper, it was not gas. Nobody is forcing you to answer my questions. If you do not want to answer them, dont but quit prodcuing answers where you dont say much more than LOLOLOLOL

Originally posted by defcon5

The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

Originally posted by Cassius666
Oh it wasnt severed gas lines of a sudden? Glad we got that out of the way.

I am more then a little tired of members of the truth movement playing everything black and white when they discuss this topic with folks who disagree with them. Its ok for them to present a lot of unfounded speculation when they want to present their theories, but their chief debate tactic when it come to dealing with those who disprove their theories is to hem them into a little black and white box.

My point being I did not say what you are claiming I said. Reality is often more of a gray area then a black and white one.

Now what I am saying is that you had a huge collapse of hot debris on top of a lot of pooled fuel and severed gas lines. Gas lines would have only exploded when they were first severed during the collapse, after that they would have continued to leak and fuel whatever underground fires were existing below the ruble pile. This would create smoldering underground fire akin to an earth oven:

Earth Oven
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/70f8f59941ca.png[/atsimg]

Where the debris was sitting on top of pooled fuel, ruptured boiler lines, and shorted out electrical lines coming into the sub basement levels under the ruble and heating the material in those lower areas. This creates a situation that will retain high levels of heat for long periods of time, and will be difficult to extinguish.

Originally posted by Cassius666
The steele itself was red hot, because it was reacting with something.

The steel was red hot because it was sitting on hot embers from the heated debris that were cooking it from below. This is the same way that a blacksmith heats steel to work it in a Forge.

Originally posted by Cassius666
I cant recall having seen any kind of flame as they dug up the rubble.

Smoldering embers do not produce a flame unless stoked, they also produce little to no smoke.

Originally posted by Cassius666
and I dont know at what temperatures office furniture burns, but I really doubt it burns as high as the temperatures measured. Given the fact that burning paper and burning plastic would produce large ammount of black smoke and a distinct smell of petroleum and not burn hot enough to melt steele, can we move on?

Where do you guys get that normal materials (wood/paper/etc) cannot reach temperatures that are sufficient to melt steel? If that were the case you better travel back in time and tell all those old blacksmiths that what they were doing defies the laws of physics because the truth movement says it does.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

edit on 11/20/2010 by defcon5 because: tag/typo

The blacksmiths did not melt the steele. I ruled fires out though and I told you why, the high temperatures for starters and the molten metal. Also the firefighters did attempt to hose the fire, in vain. Also this scenario does not quite match the examples you gave for this long lasting fires, like the burning coalmine which had an quite impressive development of smoke and that pit in Turkmenistan which had quite spectacular fires. Also there was smoke, white smoke.

I really appreciate all your effort and dedication to provide input. Now Id like to talk more about that white van that set off bomb dogs and Nanothermite. What can it do? How is it different?

ARGUMENT: "Only thermite could account for molten steel in the basement."
How much structural steel COULD the tower's potential energy melt?
www.journalof911studies.com...
The calculated mass of one tower is 253,000 metric tons, and the total potential energy above grade is 3.98 * 10^11 Joules.
The heat required to raise a metric ton of steel to its melt temperature (temperature range 1110 deg C, specific heat of iron 500 J/kg) and then melt it (latent heat of melting of iron 98 kJ/kg) is 1000 * (1110*500 + 98000) = 1.53 * 10^8 Joules.
Therefore the maximum possible amount of structural steel that could be melted by the TOTAL CONVERSION of the tower's potential energy
is 3.98 * 10^11 / 1.53 * 10^8 = 2,600 metric tons.
Let us assume that a mere 5% of that energy went into hammering the bases of all their columns.
Then you'd be talking 130 tons of molten steel, which is around 600 cubic feet by volume.
It being a heavy liquid, it would have searched its way through loose rubble until it pooled.
As to whether this happened or not, it is interesting that groups of internal columns were seen standing for a short while after the towers collapsed. They were slagged over by molten metal somewhat, presumably from the rather intense friction they met from descending floors.
Then they FELL OVER.
This they would do, I think, if they were standing in molten iron...
Of course this is only an opinion on my part, and negotiable.
The above maths, on the other hand, isn't.
EDIT: I'm sorry - I've just checked the above link and it is no longer good - and it was just six weeks ago. It served to verify the tower steelwork mass.

This is very interesting dave. What do we know about that white van (vans?) that have been stopped by police. What do we know about the nanothermite found?

Um.................let me see, humungous building collapses, full of combustable materials and low melting point metals, probably fuel stores down in the basement as well.


I would kind of expect it to continue burning as a low oxygen underground fire for a looooong time - just like numerous landfill fires that burn underground for YEARS!

I would expect all the copper pipes and wiring, lead flashing, aluminum cladding, the odd airplane, zinc, tin, brass, gold, silver, solder etc etc - to MELT and form a big pool of MOLTEN METAL!

reply to post by JohhnyBGood


This is very interesting Dave.

Now Id like to talk about those vans Mossad agents were driving around in and the nanothermite found, what can it do, is it different than regular thermite?

reply to post by Cassius666


Ok..................it is a very common thing for Israeli nationals abroad to be asked to help out Israeli intelligence, albeit in mostly minor ways - so to call the 'agents' is maybe a misnomer, they were thoroughly checked out and released, there were no explosives found in the van.


As for nano thermate - those red one one side grey on the other flecks, they found (ten tons of them?) were...........................flakes of aluminum oxide anti-rust primer - it has the same spectral signiture as themite, they called in 'nano' becuase it had a much finer structure than normal thermite - why it was just like a PAINT!

reply to post by JohhnyBGood


It is composed of intimately mixed aluminum, iron, oxygen, silicon and carbon. Lesser amounts of other potentially reactive elements are sometimes present, such as potassium, sulfur, barium, lead and copper. [4,6]
The primary elements (Al, Fe, O, Si, C) are typically all present in particles at the scale of tens to hundreds of nanometers, and detailed XEDS mapping shows intimate mixing.
On treatment with methyl-ethyl ketone solvent, some segregation of components was observed. Elemental aluminum became sufficiently concentrated to be clearly identified in the pre-ignition material.

Thats not paint or an anti rust primer...

Yes of course, Israeli friends of mine are asked all the time to help out the Mossad, what was I thinking. Even if your theory were true, the fact that Israeli nationals have been asked to set up to videotape the event does not make it less suspicious. Now id be curious to know what turns steele red hot even after months and produces white smoke. And I still dont know what burned hot enough for steele to melt.

According to the nuclear option the on-going reaction from the left over isotopes of the devices that were detonated in the bottom of the piles from the 3 underground nuclear detonations kept everything cooking like a giant incinerator for over three months, creating rivers and pools of white hot molten steel and piles of melted and partially melted steel beams, which also caused the concrete and surrounding tarmac to wilt like a soft doughy substance. Large columns and pieces of neighbouring buildings that were once hard and solid were merely reduced to columns of standing dust piles that were simply blown away in the passing wind, creating dust clouds of irritant material from the compression wave that disconnected the very crystalline structure of materials in surrounding areas.

reply to post by Insolubrious


This is very interesting Dave.

Now Id like to talk about those vans Mossad agents were driving around in and the nanothermite found, what can it do, is it different than regular thermite?

reply to post by Cassius666


The 5 "dancing Israelis" were roughly handled by the FBI. They were kept in custody for several months and
given the 3rd degree by the FBI and CIA who wanted to find out what they were doing.

In fact, within two weeks, an immigration judge routinely ordered them deported. But that is when, according to sources who spoke to 20/20, the FBI and CIA put a hold on the case. And over the next two months, some of the men were held in solitary confinement, questioned repeatedly and some of them were given up to seven lie detector tests. Clearly this was more than your average immigration case.

Conjecture was spying on radical Muslim groups

Vince Cannistraro is a former chief of operations for counter-terrorism with the Central Intelligence Agency. Now he's a consultant with ABC News. He says many in the US intelligence community believe that some of the men arrested in the white van were in the US working for Israeli intelligence. They speculate that Urban Moving was being used by Israel as an intelligence front.

Mr. CANNISTRARO: ...set up or exploited for the purpose of launching an op-eration, an intelligence operation, against radical Islamics in the area, par-ticularly in the New Jersey/New York area.

MILLER: (VO) Under the scenario, the spying operation was not aimed against the United States, but at penetrating or monitoring radical fund-raising and support networks in Muslim communities like Patterson, New Jersey, which was one of the places where several of the hijackers lived in the months prior to 9/11.

Mr. CANNISTRARO: Israeli government has been concerned about activity of radical Islamic groups in the United States. There could be a support apparatus to Hamas and Islamic Jihad, two groups which are conducting the majority of the suicide bombings in Israel.

.

reply to post by thedman


I suppose those russian spies were just monitoring terrorists too. Wouldnt the FBI or the CIA spie on terrorists groups in America? Also how exactly do you spy on Muslim terrorists with a van full of explosives?

Also what can nanothermite do? How is it different than regular thermite?

Originally posted by roguetechie
So gravity just magically worked differently this time than it has ANY OTHER TIME? really?

what caused it to be so hot was the MOLTEN STEEL that POOLED throughout the wreckage and was STILL MOLTEN A WEEK OR TWO LATER ...

Now these VERIFIED POOLS of MOLTEN STEEL in a rubble pile that supposedly NEVER HAD ANY FIRE HOT ENOUGH TO DO ANYTHING BUT WEAKEN STEEL ... well NIST just IGNORED THEM because it would be DAMN HARD TO EXPLAIN THEM with the storyline they are trying to say happened.

I am pretty sure he was being sarcastic.

What I would be curious about, what was the white smoke? Was it steam, caused by the water making contact with the hot iron beams?

reply to post by Cassius666


You cant be that dense can you?

Its called FIRE......

You had 2 110 story office buildings chock full of combustibles (office furniture and thousands of tons of paper)
collapse into debris pile. The combustibles continued to burn (several floors were alread yon fire ) until finally
extinguished 3 months later.

It was similar to a mine fire - some of which burn for years if not decades

Look up Centrralia Pennsylvania - fire in abandoned coal mine been burning for 50 years!

Combustibles which got blown all over manhatten pulverized. What was in the pit was pretty much the basement and little debries. You are not seriously comparing a pit full of concrete steele ASBESTOS and toilet paper to a burning coal cave, which is all combustible are you?

reply to post by Cassius666


So the office supplies, chairs, tables, carpeting, computers, printers, coffie machines, soda machines, the UPS battery area, reams of papers, cubicles, cieling tiles, airliner debris, telephones, copy machines, fuel tanks, etc etc etc, just all got blown out and none was left inside? really?

reply to post by Cassius666


Maybe should leave mommy's and get a real job

Will find that almost everything in a modern office building will BURN !

Desks - particle board held togather with plastic based glue, carpets - nylon, cubicle walls - styrafoam/urethene
covered by synthetic cloth, chairs - synthethic cloth covering urethene paddings (aka solid napalm), computers
& printers these days are mostly plastics. Add to that tons and tons of POP (thats plain old paper), so much
for paperless offices.....

Now imagiine 2 x 110 floors (each 1 acre in size) collapsing in giant rubble pile thats burning

reply to post by GenRadek


Look up pictures of the towers collapsing, look up pictures of ground zero immediatly after. There is no way enough of that dust found its way in the basement to warrant fires that went on for weeks, burning even hotter than smoldering coalmine underground fires, unless there was something inside the dust that caused it. I cant believe we are even having this conversation, comparing a cave full of combustible material to a soaking wet basement, full of concrete some steel beams and dust. The tower collapsed, yes, but the basement did not go anywhere, in the basement of ground zero you still have mostly the basement even after the collapse.

Also it does not explain, how the cloud charred cars a few blocks away from the fallout area of hard material while leaving everything else untouttched. Whatever was in the dust must have reacted with steele of the cars in some way.

Originally posted by Cassius666
reply to post by GenRadek

 

Look up pictures of the towers collapsing, look up pictures of ground zero immediatly after. There is no way enough of that dust found its way in the basement to warrant fires that went on for weeks, burning even hotter than smoldering coalmine underground fires, unless there was something inside the dust that caused it. I cant believe we are even having this conversation, comparing a cave full of combustible material to a soaking wet basement, full of concrete some steel beams and dust. The tower collapsed, yes, but the basement did not go anywhere, in the basement of ground zero you still have mostly the basement even after the collapse.

Also it does not explain, how the cloud charred cars a few blocks away from the fallout area of hard material while leaving everything else untouttched. Whatever was in the dust must have reacted with steele of the cars in some way.

edit on 6-5-2011 by Cassius666 because: (no reason given)

What dust? You mean the stuff inside that stayed inside during the collapse? It wasnt "dustified." Crushed, smashed, pulverized maybe. It wasnt just concrete and steel and dust.

As for the charred cars, which ones are you talking about? The ones that were burned and smashed from the debris of the airliners impacts, or the burned and smashed cars pulled from the rubble after the collapses? Do you really think some sort of dust caused this? Really? I'm almost too choked up to speak, as the laughter just wants to burst through....... ok. Deep breath. Whoooo. Allrighty.

Cars that burned farther away were set afire by the burning debris from either the airplane debris and burning materials that ejected after impact, or set afire from another burning vehicle nearby or close to it. Ever watched a car fire in a parking lot, or on a side street? Fire likes to travel, and when one car burns, if there are more right next to it, chances are good they too will catch fire and burn. Chain reaction burning. That is what happened on 9/11. Other cars/trucks/ambulances/fire rescue/etc, were burned when the towers came down and smashed them, or burning debris impacted them, setting them on fire. You saw t he amounts of paper and dust that swirled around in the streets afterward, well, some of it may have caught fire as well from the burning debris, while some didnt because they were caked with the dust from the remains. If you think that any sort of thermitic materials are to blame, stop right there. Take some unlit thermite, and throw it on a car. Will it spontaniously combust? 99.99999999999999% it wont. Now, saying it was probably some super dooper, nano tech, military spec engineered, pixy-dust laced thermite from the planet X, of which we have no idea how it works as yet, it is super dooper secret, means nothing other than gibberish trying to explain away serious facts.

Those vehicles burned from either the burning airliner debris, or from chain reaction fires, or from the collapse and burning debris. Ruptured fuel tanks only need a spark to ignite. Platics burn rapidly and readily when set afire.