This would make it very hard for me to vote for Kerry...

Originally posted by EnronOutrunHomerun
Please tell me exactly what freedoms you have lost because of President Bush.

You can be arrested without being charged, tried, or even telling anyone you have been arrested. People can disappear, spend years in jail, without even being told why they have been arrested, and it's all legal. On a lighter but still serious note, the government now monitors what library books I check out!

lol you think the government WASNT monitoring what certain people checked out at the library prior to the patriot act?????

You've hit on the problem TPM...people were clueless before, they aren't now...so they make assinine statements in their new-found awareness.

oh well.

Dude i wasn't going to vote at all until you told me that. If he takes hilary i might vote.

so they make assinine statements in their new-found awareness.

Yes...but...I have this little hunch - once something is made legal it lets them do it on a much broader scale - just because people were less aware of it before does not mean that they were fully exploiting your library pass privelages.

I don't think having a female VP candidate is very smart, especially with HC being so despised by the right. The Dems often do that, try some bold move for their VP and screw up.
Still, I truly believe that more people hate Bush than Hillary. And if Hillary were in the White house, then of course, guess who ELSE would be in the White House ? After the past 4 years, anything could happen.

If you want to know how many freedoms we might have lost, check out the Patriot Act. Right to remain silent ?

Terrorism is a FAR GREATER world-wide problem since Prince Bush was annointed. C'mon, the US stirred up a steaming heap of terror in the middle east with the Iraq invasion. Just enough to be able to claim that it's a world-wide problem and then sort-of justify the war whose very justification is ever-changing.

Non-volunteer force ? What about all the people getting called back into the military, tours being extended, nothing they can do about it , DEFINITELY not VOLUNTEERING to go beyond their required time served.

It is public knowledge how questionable all intel concerning Iraq was, and oh yeah, it's also well documented that Bush himself was never very INQUISITIVE, as his administration expects all of us to be, and buy their story on the grounds of "patriotism". The same people who cry that we should "respect our president" didn't give a damn about respecting the last president,even though it was STILL the same hallowed office, and the same great country.

If I were the leader of any other country, I wouldn't buy anything the Bush administration told me.
Every country has their own interests at heart, sure, but I refuse to blame our "allies" for not agreeing with something that at least half of America doesn't believe in.

Hillary might think we're stupid, but Bush KNOWS we're stupid. Or at least the people who tell him what to say do. Imagine if he were actually in charge !

I think Kerry is definitely in their pocket, due to the political assassination of Howard Dean and quick conditioning to accept footnote Kerry.

And Hillary, too, that's probably why Bush kissed Clinton's ass the other day at the portrait unveiling, and that's why Clinton's all over tv improving his image.

I say, ANYBODY BUT BUSH. But maybe that's what we're supposed to do...maybe we should call their bluff and actually ELECT Bush for the very first time, something they probably aren't prepared for, and watch the panic really kick in when Kerry's not there to pardon all of 'em, watch 'em go down in history, and HARD.

Because a second Bush term , at this rate , would be a gigantic disaster for everybody, himself included.

Originally posted by Valhall
You've hit on the problem TPM...people were clueless before, they aren't now...so they make assinine statements in their new-found awareness.

oh well.

Sorry, I should of been clearer for those more obtuse. Yes, people were being 'disappeared' and books being monitored before, but now it is legal.

ya...that's kinda what I said - you just made it sound better

No, actually, he did a far worse job than you. He apparently not only has no compunction against making assinine statements of hyperbole related to his unfounded claims of confiscated rights, but he also doesn't know what the word obtuse means...

because me calling his statements assinine is fairly straight-forward - nothing obtuse about it.

ah - nice obeservation...
so...Kerry, Hillary...

I see a striking resemblence...

I have a feeling this might have to be moved to the PIT.....

The thing that sucks is that only time will tell, and we are quickly running out of it. Unlike the congress/senate, if everyone would take time to read the Patriot Act I and II you will realize that our freedoms can be taken away just like that. Whether it will be turned against its own people remains to be seen. It is supposed to protect us from those who want to harm us, but if legal problems come up as to evidence, how it was obtained, interrorgation etc etc, it can easily be claimed under the Patriot Act without going through any legal proceedings, or being signed by a judge. This takes away the right to a speedy and fair trial.

I have to bring OJ Simpson up. Do I personally believe he was guilty? Yes. Based on what I was able to see and hear that the jury could not. Based on the actual trial itself, I believe the right verdict was reached.

With that being said, everyone knows the legal system in the US has loopholes on both sides It can be bent on both sides. Is this fair? NO. But we at least have the freedom to council and the right to bend these Laws. Anything claimed under the PA, does not have right to council, a speedy trial, nothing, all rights go bye-bye. As of right now anyone can be held for as long as GW deems so, without question.

The question needs to be "Will this ever be turned against citizens not involved in an act of terror?", it could be, but will it?

Again, time will tell. If Kerry is elected, he will have the same call as GW does right now. I don't even think he can make a sound decision at this point.



[edit on 30-6-2004 by TrickmastertricK]

While I believe its about time we had a woman at the helm in this country I am not convinced Hillary even IS a woman. But seriously, she is a bit extreme for me and I don't think she is very diplomatic or charismatic. She just always seems to be grumpy, combative and confrontational. In fact, I'm not sure I've ever seen her smile. Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking for a bobble head for office, just someone that would make a good representaiton of Amercia and specifically American Women to the world. And I sure don't want to be equated with her.

So what is the alternative here? Bush, with more limits on our freedoms, pointless wars and deception? Maybe I'll opt for NONE OF THE ABOVE. Or better yet, let's all write in "SCEPTIC OVERLORD"!

I have to bring OJ Simpson up. Do I personally believe he was guilty? Yes. Based on what I was able to see and hear that the jury could not. Based on the actual trial itself, I believe the right verdict was reached.

Are you freakin' kidding me? As dreadful as the prosecution was, the DNA proves OJ's blood was at the crime scene, and the victims blood in his Bronco. Unless you're an idiot, you can't believe that some other random person bled at the scene and then the blood just miraculously turned into OJ's. Barring that, what would be the odds of OJ bleeding on the very spot of the murders at an earlier time? How did he get several wounds on his left hand, especially a larger one on one of his finger that had caused bleeding around the time of the murders? And he couldn't account for whereabouts during the time of the murders. He lied to the limo driver who was waiting for him by saying he overslept, even though the driver just saw him walking onto his property and into the house.

The defense's police conspiracy theory didn't even make sense. How could Fuhrman have planted a glove when people who arrived at the scene before him only saw one there? Why would all these cops, who on every previous occassion kissed his ass, suddenly hate him enough to want to frame him?

Where did OJ come from?! The guys everywhere...I can't believe it's been ten years!

Originally posted by EnronOutrunHomerun
Where did OJ come from?! The guys everywhere...I can't believe it's been ten years!

He's planning a run vs. the Governator in the next California Elections!

..............
I'm laughing in ignorance and I hope that's a joke...if it is, then -
Now let me go make sure....lol

phew....you had me going there for a minute

Originally posted by Phoenix
BT I would expect no less than for you to gush praise for Shumy and Hilda, go figure.

My family is from upstate and I honestly have to say it is depressing to visit there for any more than a couple of days simply because I know how much better off most other places are. So much for the job those two Senators do, glad I left when I did.

BTW the straw was the fact that Hillary has enough bones in her closet to out do the bonesman themselves plus the fact that her brand of socialism makes the entire field appear far right - hence she makes JK look viable in comparison but I must say it would humor me if she ran as VP.

[edit on 30-6-2004 by Phoenix]

I guess there's no talking to you; you're too deep into a partisan defense myopia; it's completely senseless to talk about "socialism" in discussing Mrs. Clinton. I don't know what you track on my home state, where I've run a company for over a decade & am active in local politics, but I really don't know what you're referencing ( but it does score a visual....like you're making a point! ).
The problems I can speak about? Well, they lead back to our infamous GOP Gov. Pataki.....I have to look up "rode out of town on a rail", since it will apply to him come his re-election bid....if he's egotistical enough to try for another.

BT my answer was predicated on your comment of just how good a senator Hillary Clinton is along with Chuck Shumer, I believe differently based on personal experience as well as statistical data. I really did not intend to start a ruckus in this thread. If you want to discuss the states state in the political forum I would be glad to contribute to your new thread.

Phoenix