It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

The Quasi-Fascist roots of Zionism

page: 1
10
<<   2 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Nov, 15 2010 @ 10:39 PM
link   
"A dissenting minority feels free only when it can impose its will on the majority: what it abominates most is the dissent of the majority. "
Eric Hoffer



The term "Zionism" was believed to have been coined by Austrian journalist Nathan Birnbaum in 1886. It centered originally on reviving the hebrew language, soon after "Practical Zionism" was declared by a man named Leon Pinsker-that the Jews must have a nation once more.


The ideology had existed for close to half a century before the founding of the state, However this is not the part I will address in this thread - the goal of Zionism was always the mass migration to Palestine and the creation of a Jewish majority state. Although Theodor Herzl is largely credited with being the "father of Zionism", chiefly for orchestrating the first world Zionist congress in 1897; during his lifetime he toiled mostly in vain. Eventually exhausted from pleading his case to the largely indifferent heads of state in Europe, he died long before Israel was a glint in Palestines eye.


It's the men that were drawn to this ideology in the early 20th century, one in particular by the name of Vladimir Jabotinsky- and in turn created out of their vision-a Jewish state in the heart of Palestine that interest me.





Fluent in 6 languages and extremely well educated across the continent of Europe, Vladimir(Ze'ev) Jabotinsky played a crucial role in the founding of Israel. It has been said that Zionism was never quite the same after Jabotinsky, and that wasn't necessarily a good thing.


Instrumental in the creation of the first Jewish legion within the british army, He declared there would be an eventual Jewish Army, the first of which in nearly 2 millenia. This was a catalyst in the first schizm between eastern jewry and the soon to be "revisionist" Zionism that Jabotinsky would be credited with.

He was a man of action and did not shy away from his ardent beliefs that there was no time for caution or "Dogmatic revolutionary theories". He pushed strongly for immigration to the holy land from across Europe and in 1924 he formed the first Betar unit in Riga, Latvia.

From the book "Terror out of Zion" by J. Bowyer Bell 1977

Over the next decade Jabotinsky created an alternative Zionism, a current viewed with great suspicion by the Zionist left; for his new Revisionist movement appeared to be garbled in the clothes of European fascism and dedicated to the principles of the anti-revolutionary right."



Betar Exists to this day, and his ideals can be seen by anyone on its website:Betar

The building of Betar is founded upon the principles of discipline. Our aim is to make Betar such a world organism which, at a sign from the center, will be able simultaneously to move tens of thousands of hands in the cities of all countries. Our adversaries say that it is "unworthy of free men", that it means being made into a machine. I propose that we should not be ashamed to reply, and proudly to boot: "Yes - a machine". For it is the highest achievement of a mass of free men, if they are capable to act in unison, with the absolute precision of a machine.


In his youth he was said to have found both socialists and communists at odds with his beliefs, which were strongly rooted in Jewish nationalism and not these international ideals.


I have more to add, but I will break for the moment and open the forum to comments
edit on 15-11-2010 by HollowJacket because: divided by 0




posted on Nov, 15 2010 @ 10:54 PM
link   
Again, from "Terror out of Zion" by J. Bowyer Bell

Jabotinsky proposed to create a new Jew, who would not fit easily, if at all, into the doctrinaire categories of the left, now commited to international socialism adapted for Zionist purposes to Palestinian conditions.


The Zionist left was at complete odds with the direction this man was going in.



and again, from the Betar website, From the mouth of Jabotinsky himself:

Discipline is the subordination of a mass to one leader; that leader must subordinate himself to his superior, the superior to somebody higher than himself, etc.

edit on 15-11-2010 by HollowJacket because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 15 2010 @ 11:12 PM
link   
A quick sample of his writing, which became the battle cry, or birthing pangs, of a fledgling nation:



From the pit of decay and dust With blood and sweat Shall arise a race
Proud generous and cruel Captured Betar,
Yodefet,
Masada Shall arise again In all their strength and glory Hadar Even in poverty a Jew is a prince
Whether slave or tramp You have been created the son of kings Crowned with the diadem of David
Whether in light or in darkness Always remember the crown The crown of pride and Tagar Through all obstacles and enemies
Whether you go up or down In the flames of revolt
Carry the flame to kindle "Never mind"
For silence is filth
Worthless is blood and soul For the sake of the hidden glory
To die or conquer the hill
Yodefet, Masada, Betar

edit on 15-11-2010 by HollowJacket because: (no reason given)

edit on 16-11-2010 by HollowJacket because: (no reason given)

edit on 16-11-2010 by HollowJacket because: divided by 0



posted on Nov, 16 2010 @ 07:55 AM
link   
Thanks for starting this thread. I think it is very relevant to the situation now emerging in Israel. Only this morning I read about Avigdor Lieberman's proposals for a loyalty pledge for all non Jews in Israel.

The Israeli cabinet has approved the plan whereby even non Jews must submit to a pledge of allegience to the Jewish State of Israel.

This leads Israel down a very dangerous path towards Fascism and Aparthied.

It is clear now who the racists really are.





edit on 16-11-2010 by bigyin because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 16 2010 @ 09:10 AM
link   
I don't get it.. So you pick and choose quotes, you quote an anti Zionist book, and this some how shows, what? That Zionism is fascist?

You fail to mention that his opinions were rejected by the mostly left wing Jewish people.

You fail to quote him on such things as-

In 1934 he wrote a draft constitution for the Jewish state which declared that the Arab minority would be on an equal footing with its Jewish counterpart "throughout all sectors of the country's public life." The two communities would share the state's duties, both military and civil service, and enjoy its prerogatives. Jabotinsky proposed that Hebrew and Arabic should enjoy equal rights and that "in every cabinet where the prime minister is a Jew, the vice-premiership shall be offered to an Arab and vice versa."


And again, this is to prove what? That Israel is fascist by association? By picking and choosing quotes? By putting a title that doesn't match the content?

And of course this gets 7 flags, in like, 5 minutes, but no one bothers to comment, as they probably only took the time to see if It's anti Israeli or not and hadn't bothered to read through...



posted on Nov, 16 2010 @ 09:17 AM
link   
reply to post by bigyin
 




Only this morning I read about Avigdor Lieberman's proposals for a loyalty pledge for all non Jews in Israel.

A bull# law that's only meant to stir things up, but will never actually get to be a law..
Just a stupid move from a very politically shrewed man.



The Israeli cabinet has approved the plan whereby even non Jews must submit to a pledge of allegience to the Jewish State of Israel.

Again, not true, the pledge is only for new receivers of citizenships, and it applies to Jews and non Jews alike..
Why spin this?



This leads Israel down a very dangerous path towards Fascism and Aparthied.

Again you blurt out words like fascism and apartheid without knowing what they mean...


It is clear now who the racists really are.

Oh, so now it's clear? This proposed law, that you couldn't even get right (stop reading blogs), proves everything right?
This clearly shows that all Israelis are racists, right?...

Come on, what is this closed mindedness?



posted on Nov, 16 2010 @ 09:45 AM
link   
The book I quoted from isnt necessarily anti-israeli. It only deals with Jabotinsky in the first chapter, the rest focuses on LEHI and the actions of Irgun under Begins command. I just felt like addressing the fact that this guy was likely a fascist, he founded what is the equivalent of the hitler youth for jews, (or boy scouts however you wish to view it) and played a signifigant role in the early days of the ideology. calm down, I didnt say "Israel is a fascist state", or anything. you are clearly passionate about this subject so dont let your emotions overwhelm you, its just a thread.

There was alot of this sort of thing prevalent in europe at the time, emerging dictatorships and strong nationalism. He probably felt as if he could fight fire only with fire.
edit on 16-11-2010 by HollowJacket because: divided by 0





You fail to mention that his opinions were rejected by the mostly left wing Jewish people.


No I didn't fail to mention that thank you.

Also I had no intention for this to turn into a one-sided Israeli bashing thread. Anyone else posting please keep that in mind
edit on 16-11-2010 by HollowJacket because: (no reason given)

edit on 16-11-2010 by HollowJacket because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 16 2010 @ 12:23 PM
link   
reply to post by Eliad
 


Would you mind stop following me around on ATS with your hate and mumbo jumbo.

I really don't care what you say or think about what is going on. You are nothing. I am interested in what the leaders of Israel are doing. If they are introducing new laws that are described by other leaders in this field as fascist then thats good enough for me. I don't need any wannabe hounding me with their bs.



posted on Nov, 16 2010 @ 03:10 PM
link   
reply to post by HollowJacket
 


I didn't say it's anti Israeli, I said it's anti Zionist, I could be wrong though, odds are that I'm not, but the possibility exists.

The guy might have been a fascist, but it would be hard to judge if you don't bring out all sides of his personality.. You can't choose to show just the fascist side and say he's a fascist..

I really do hope it turns out to be a lively discussion on the fascist side of Zionism, I highly doubt that it will.
And I appreciate the candid attempt to deviate a bit from the normal "Israel is evil" to something a bit more interesting, my apologies on misjudging your intentions.

At any rate, let's continue the discussion:

- So in what way do you think Betar was (or is) different than any boyscout group? The hitler youth were found on the principles of racism, what has Betar ever done that's so bad?

- How deep was the effect of Jabotinsky's fascism on mainstream Zionism, do you feel?

- What is the impact of Jabotinsky's doctrines on Israeli society today?



posted on Nov, 16 2010 @ 03:12 PM
link   
reply to post by bigyin
 


Your opinions are fascist, do you realize that?



posted on Nov, 16 2010 @ 04:37 PM
link   
reply to post by Eliad
 


Your right that you cant judge a man by one side of his personality, just like you cant judge a book by its cover( or title ). He was clearly a highly competent individual and is regarded as a hero of sorts in his country, People probably still look up to him and take his ideas to heart.

As far as his effect on the present day, I know that Revisionism is represented primarily by the Likud party, which currently holds power in the government. Likud's stance is been described as "hawkish",

and like every country there are bad seeds that can make a name for themselves by clamoring for power:


describing what he'd do if he gained power, has been blocked to public access since the Likud primary. In it, one step he proposes is holding a ceremony at every army base in which all non-lethal weaponry would be destroyed. Faced with Palestinian demonstrators, soldiers could only shoot to kill. On Jewish Leadership's English website, another Feiglin tract contrasts parliamentary democracy with an "authentic Jewish regime" that would express the "organic unity of the Nation of Israel." Put simply, Feiglin's ideology is the meeting point of fundamentalism and fascism.

The rebel prince

Fortunately This guy didn't win the election but it just shows you this could be an example of his (Jabotinsky) effect on todays world.



Race and Religion were closely tied for a long time and its not surprising that they would be used to create social programs such as Betar or the hitler youth...I almost feel like they were 2 sides of the same coin back then.


edit on 16-11-2010 by HollowJacket because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 16 2010 @ 10:22 PM
link   
reply to post by HollowJacket
 

same old- lets hate israel and spew doublespeak for the poor deprived muslims with their hate filled koran and dumb westerners who never were promised that land as Israel was
Zionists believe their book and act on it. All freedom loving men should too because it prophesied the return of the Jewish Messiah Jeshuah Jesus for all mankind
The 'Palestinian' rabble are descended from Ham who was cursed by his father Noah for his indecent actions
ever since then he has been pissed and parrots lies like yours so the dumb can find a scapegoat for the mess this world is in
the Israelis were called Palestinians 100 years ago till arafart and his terrorists took up the refrain
the romans called the land palestinia after 70 ad to ensure the hated jews would not have a homeland again after wiping them out throughout their territories and deporting survivors into the diaspora
they returned to their god given promised land area in May 1948 after churchill and his oil buddies stole the majority of it for their arab friends and left them a scrap that currently the whole world wants them to give up to terrorist entities like the plo hamas etc- go figure
the flip side is that God is watching over a promise He made to all:
bless the jew- be blessed
curse the jew- be cursed
genesis 12:3
you aint seen nothing yet- Israel has been promised all the land from the Euphrates west to the Medi , north beyond Damascus and south to Egypt
and all the perk sucking ego ridden americans europeans un an whoever will not change that lol
look at history and see who has screwed the jews around- many nations are just dust on the earth - philistines, edomites, moabites,assyrians babylonians, greeks, turks ottomans, romans, Britain who is going down now, and America who shall go down unless she stops giving israel's land away for a so called 2 state solution that will never be,
It has been prophesied thousands of years ago by Ezekiel that Iran russia libya and turkey and some arabs are going to take sh*t kicking when they attack Israel
and so will the whole world at some point prove Genesis 12:3
nuff said
shalom



posted on Nov, 16 2010 @ 10:29 PM
link   
reply to post by Yacov
 


Off topic post if there ever was one, but if you really want to blow this thread out of the water and let it sink to the bottom thats fine. I'll accuse one of my own countries heros of being a fascist.

Yet Lincoln threatened the use of force to maintain the Union in his First Inaugural Address, saying, "In [preserving the Union] there needs to be no bloodshed or violence; and there shall be none, unless it be forced upon the national authority." Lincoln may have preserved the Union geographically (at great cost to the Constitution), but politically and philosophically, the concept of a voluntary union was shredded by sword, rifle and cannon.

Lincoln was a FASCIST


Deal with it.


edit on 16-11-2010 by HollowJacket because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 16 2010 @ 10:31 PM
link   
Technically speaking, Zionism in general, and the path being taken by a number of prominent parties and politicians in Israel could very well come under the defintion.


Wikipedia on Fascism
Fascism (pronounced /ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a radical and authoritarian nationalist political ideology.
...
Fascists believe that a nation is an organic community that requires strong leadership, singular collective identity, and the will and ability to commit violence and wage war in order to keep the nation strong. They claim that culture is created by the collective national society and its state, that cultural ideas are what give individuals identity, and thus they reject individualism. Viewing the nation as an integrated collective community, they see pluralism as a dysfunctional aspect of society, and justify a totalitarian state as a means to represent the nation in its entirety.


The remarkable emphasis on "Jewishness" in detriment to all other things (exampled by the proposed loyalty oath, comments made by so many top politicians, the complete and total assertion that Israel is JEWISH state, the lack of common law marriage, that non-jews could just never be allowed to become a majority, that non-jews could realistically speaking, never become the leader, etc.), DOES somewhat smack of fascism.
This is, of course, not to say that there aren't several other nations that could possibly fall under this definition.

reply to post by Eliad
 


Originally posted by Eliad


The Israeli cabinet has approved the plan whereby even non Jews must submit to a pledge of allegience to the Jewish State of Israel.

Again, not true, the pledge is only for new receivers of citizenships, and it applies to Jews and non Jews alike..
Why spin this?

Actually, Eliad, it only applies to non-jews, as can be seen by the article that bigyin quoted, and here as well: www.ynetnews.com...
edit on 16-11-2010 by babloyi because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 17 2010 @ 05:03 AM
link   
reply to post by babloyi
 





The remarkable emphasis on "Jewishness"

But the majority is Jewish..
Let me ask you this- Do you have a Purim sale in America? How about a Hanukkah giveaway? A Passover parade?

No. You have Thanks Giving, Christmas, Halloween, etc..

Was there a contraversy on building a mosque near Ground Zero? Yes.
Do you still have the don't ask don't tell policy? Yes.
Is being a "good Christian" still important to Republicans? Yes?

Does America call itself Christian? No. Is it? Yes.

The loyalty oath is idiotic.. There's no way in no universe that it'll eventually become a law the way that it is.
And I stand corrected, it does seem it only applies to non Jews. It was fascist and dumb either way.

But does that make Israel as a whole fascist? You can find these fascist elements in any country- The boy scouts, the military, etc. In France they have a law against wearing a burkah in public, if that's not fascism, I don't know what is.. Does that mean that France is fascist?

And how can you say non-Jews can never become leaders? We have non-Jews in our parliament, Muslims, Gays, you name it.. How many gays do you have in your Senate? How many Muslims?

But if a non-Jew was ever to be elected PM he needs to represent the majority of the people of Israel.

And if Israel ever did or will do anything to prevent anyone else from becoming the majority then I will personally call it fascist.. So far it's been giving out allowances and money to families with over 3 children, which exist almost solely in the Arab sector and the Orthodox sector.



posted on Nov, 17 2010 @ 05:55 AM
link   
Israel is the only open society and democracy in the middle-east, whereas the arabic countries surrounding it could easily be described as fascistoid.

Both the Nazis and the Islamo-Fascists have been trying to turn this around since a Century claiming that Jews and Zionists are "Fascist". Zionists are merely people who move to Israel.
edit on 17-11-2010 by Skyfloating because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 17 2010 @ 09:30 AM
link   


Does America call itself Christian? No. Is it? Yes.


Thats debatable also... it was founded on Christian values and Christianity is its main religion... But I beleive the seperation of church and state prevent us from being labeled a "Christian" nation. Our percentage of identifiable Christians in America is on par with your percentage of Jewish in Israel...But there the Church and the State are one in the same.

How essential is the seperation of church and state to democracy?

Some would argue that:

The logic behind the concept is flawless, and we owe a debt of gratitude to the forward thinking of the founders of this country. With the diversity inherent in a pluralistic society, including a multitude of Christian sects, as well as representation of every faith on the planet, including those with no beliefs at all, the only conceivable way to ensure that no amount of favoritism is shown through legislation to any one belief, in preference to any other, is to create an environment in which all religious beliefs compete with each on a level playing field based on their own merits.




are there any other democracies in the middle east, where religion is also closely tied to the state?
from wiki


Theories are diverse on the subject. Revisionist theories argue that democracy is incompatible with Islamic culture and values,[1] others put forward the development in the conceptualization of political practices. They argue that the lack of a clear cut difference between religion and the state stifles democracy in the region.

edit on 17-11-2010 by HollowJacket because: (no reason given)

edit on 17-11-2010 by HollowJacket because: divided by 0



posted on Nov, 17 2010 @ 10:56 AM
link   
reply to post by HollowJacket
 


I'm not talking about 230 years ago, I'm talking about what goes on today-
You can say that church and state are separated all you want, but the fact is that Christianity has a major influence on many aspects of American society, the don't ask don't tell policy for one, there are many openly Christian candidates that operate with the values of Christianity in mind, etc...

Israel was never founded as a one religion nation, this is out of the Israeli declaration of establishment:

it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.


There are no laws that force anyone to live by any Jewish norm.. The only difference from any other nation is the fact that we celebrate Jewish holidays and speak our language..

Even having to pledge allegiance to a Jewish state has nothing to do with religion.. And doesn't America have basically the same thing? Doesn't it say "one nation under god"?

It just feels like people are so easily manipulated to think Israel is so much different than any other country in the world..



posted on Nov, 17 2010 @ 12:22 PM
link   
reply to post by Eliad
 


Very true sir. I'm glad we had the chance to talk about this.

A word on "one nation under god"


Half a century ago, at the height of anti-Communist fervor, Congress added the words ''under God'' to the Pledge of Allegiance. It was a petty attempt to link patriotism with religious piety, to distinguish us from the godless Soviets.

an opinion on the ruling attempting to remove it from the pledge(same article):

We wish the words had not been added back in 1954. But just the way removing a well-lodged foreign body from an organism may sometimes be more damaging than letting it stay put, removing those words would cause more harm than leaving them in. By late afternoon yesterday, virtually every politician in Washington was rallying loudly behind the pledge in its current form.


Is there an equivalent form of pledge in Israel? This may be getting off topic. Is it possible or relative to ask your political stance? Likudnik, Kadima, Labor ect. ? The Israeli version of our "green party"s website doesnt look like its been updated very recently so they are very active or not taken very seriously, is that safe to assume?


edit on 17-11-2010 by HollowJacket because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 17 2010 @ 03:15 PM
link   
reply to post by Eliad
 


Originally posted by Eliad
But does that make Israel as a whole fascist? You can find these fascist elements in any country- The boy scouts, the military, etc.

I never said that Israel as a whole was fascist. Just elements of zionism, which is then espoused by many of the people in power. There are certainly non-jews in parliament, but I'd say it is more for show than for anything else. While Israeli arabs make up 20% of the population (would probably much more if not for discrimination), they barely have 7% representation in the Knesset.

I know you are a reasonable person, Eliad. I'm sure you agree that in general, non-jews in Israel are a discriminated against. Even if they should be protected in the spirit of the law, in the application of it, lots of shenanigans regularly occur.



new topics

top topics



 
10
<<   2 >>

log in

join