Reply Three - Ha-Do-Ken
Sorry for slowness all – didn’t even see that spy66 had cleared the 24 extension on my post list. (It arranged itself to look like it always does
with this thread on the bottom)
In my opponents post it is stated that both calendars are created to limit people’s choices of freewill.
In a poetic sense my opponent might be right by using air fairy logic. The Gregorian calendar asserts no more control over a person than their own
personal responsibilities they have throughout their lives. These responsibilities are mostly separate from the Gregorian calendar. The Gregorian
calendar is beyond being a religious marker calendar forcing its people into actions on pain of annihilation or death.
As a Socratic question, I would ask my opponent exactly what Gregorian law we are having to follow?
In my daily work I often work over Christmas and Easter holidays. So there’s certainly no Gregorian law lording over me there. I don’t have to go
to Church. There is nothing preventing me from taking a week off in July if I feel like it. The Calendar itself has very little impact on what I do
other than counting time.
The only laws I can think of which relate to our calendar in most countries are agreements between government and shopping districts to remain open on
certain days. IE All shops must be open on Saturday in the city. If anything this is to maintain the central business distract for tourists and people
in my town. How would we prosper if shops opened and closed when they felt like it?
I’m beginning to become confused as to what my opponent’s point actually is.
My opponent states that the Mayan calendar is so accurate and so true that it baffles
everyone. Since when has accuracy’s purpose been to
baffle everyone? I do believe certain aspects of Mayan culture were perfectly happy to have a calendar that does baffle everyone. It gave them a nice
little niche of power provided by their calendars own inconsistencies. Again they had no ability to predict seasons accurately beyond their Jaguar
priests who used their simple understanding of mathematics to control their people.
The issue with my opponents argument is perhaps slightly baffling – perhaps only to me. The ‘Tun calendar’ my opponent refers to doesn’t
actually exist. A Tun is part of the ancient Maya Long Count Calendar system which corresponds to 18 winal cycles of 360 days. I am assuming that by
Tun my opponent is referring to this part of the Long Count calendar.
My opponent here takes a leap into numerology explaining that 360 days happens to be in line with 360 degrees. There’s just no information to back
this up. The nine levels of creation are simply silly concepts imposed by those who are full of wishful thinking. The Mayans themselves had no
advanced knowledge beyond their time of the future. The 2012 prophecies are in fact rather mundane in comparison.
Looking at my opponents accuracy calculations it appears my previous points have been completely missed. The Haab was not as accurate as even the
Roman Julian calendar of 52BC never mind the Gregorian! The Mayan calendar does not use any system of leap days which leads to an error rate of 1 day
every 4 years when compared to the solar year.
Further more the Tzolkin and Long Count are not solar calendars. I will return to my previously introduced fact.
No solar calendar ever devised can do away with some form of leap days (or "intercalary days"), for these simple reasons:
1. There is not an integer number of days in a year (365.2524 days per year)8
2. There is not an integer number lunar cycles in a year (12.3683 lunar cycles per year)9
3. There is not an integer number of days in a lunar cycle (29.53059 days per lunar cycle).10
It would be nice if things were different, and there were exactly an even number of days per lunar phase, and an even number of lunar phases per year,
but that's just not how it is.
The Mayans were comfortable with their seasons changing which months they occur. It’s easy to see that our seasons happen with regularity due to our
constant correcting of our calendar. The Earth is not a static object and our Calendar requires these adjustments to match its movements. The Mayans
did not use intercalary days! How then their calendar be more accurate? If their calendar is more accurate how then does it constantly fail to predict
the seasons with any form of accuracy? Make that final question Socratic!
Whilst the Gregorian Calendar remains accurate with intercalary days the Mayan Calendar was still not accurate after the use of an intercalary MONTH
called the Uyaeb. My opponents calculations in fact demonstrate my opponents misunderstanding of what makes a calendar accurate. The mathematics
behind it must include intercalary days and such like … Just because the Mayan calendar may have been accurate very briefly during a single point in
time doesn’t make it accurate at all. That’s like saying if I make the same prediction over and over again and get it right once then I’m
clearly a holy person.
My opponent seems to by shying away from the true purpose of the Mayan calendars and also seems to be under the mistaken impression they are somehow
The Long Count calendar is no different in Mayan culture than our own system of numbers years in purpose. It is the count since all things began to
merely calculate how long ago something happened. I put it to my opponent that it cannot be in sync with the rest of the Mayan calendar.
With one exception, the calendars did not 'synchronize' with each other on an annual basis. Because the named Tzolkin week is 20 days long, and the
smallest Long Count digit is 20 days, the smallest Long Count digit also represents the Tzolkin named day. For example, the last digit of today’s
Long Count is 0, today is Ahau; if it is 6, it is Cimi. However the Long Count does not synchronize to the Tzolkin or Haab in any other way.
The Mayan calendar was also based on units of 20 mainly believed to be because that is the number of fingers and toes a person has. So the writing of
the dates became endlessly convoluted. 20 days made a uinal, 18 uinals, or 360 days, made a tun, 20 tuns made a katun, or 144, 000 days, made up a
baktun. After 13 baktuns the count moved to a higher order.
An example … 18.104.22.168.15 represents 7 baktuns, 1 katuns, 3 tuns, 10 uinals and 15 days since the day of alleged creation.
Funnily enough this could be better written using our mathematics and would look like this: December 8th, 64 A.D. Is there any extra information in
the Mayan Calendar? No. It’s just someone using the best calculator they had at the time which was their fingers and toes.
Question 1. How did the Mayans come up with such a accurate solar cycle and why is it more accurate then the Gregorian solar cycle?
Pinke’s Socratic reply question: If the Mayans solar cycle is so accurate why does it fail to calculate the seasons on a regular basis, fail to add
atomic seconds at the end of the years, and have an intercalary month in its cycle?
Question 2. If the Catholic church had measured the solar cycle at the same time as the Mayans did. Would the catholic church be able to measure a
more accurate solar cycle then the Mayans 365.240358 days solar cycle. If so! What would be their actual measurement?
I don’t understand this question. Is the question, are the Catholic Church better at maths? Who created the Calendar and when is meaningless in this
debate. The Mayans developed or took their Calendar from other civilizations and either didn’t do a good job of updating it to keep it accurate or
didn’t care. That is all that matters. There is no evidence the Mayan people made any effort to calculate their calendar to be 100% correct.
Question 3. Would the Gregorian solar time cycle have remained the same today if it was measured at the same time as the Mayans did their
Yes, most likely. Intercalary days and atomic seconds etc added constantly to the Gregorian cycle keep it the most accurate calendar that has been in
wide spread use to date.
Question 4. Do you agree that the Gregorian calendar did not exist when the Mayan calendar was created. Is it then possible that the catholic church
could have learned from the Mayans on how to calculate more accurate, and used that knowledge to come up with their Gregorian calendar in 1582.
Hundreds of years after the Mayans?
The only thing they could have learnt from the Mayans in this regard is how to calculate the date based on your fingers and toes. The Gregorian
calendar was based on the Julian calendar. The reforms of the calendar were based off lunar cycles, calculating Easter, and resyncing the calendar to
be more accurate. How could the Gregorian calendar have taken anything from a race that constantly let its calendar drift out of time year after year?
What would be the point? The Mayans did not make an effort to correct their calendar so why would inspiration to do so come from them?
The only thing the two calendars have in common is that they both have something to do with time.
Socratic Question: What does consciousness have to do with the Long Count?