Being Gay - permanent or temporary?

All the time you hear stories of girls or guys going through a "phase" often in college, where they had a transitory sexual desire towards the same sex. but this desire passed, and they resumed their normal sexual inclination.

How can this be?

When i was 17 or 18 i had a very bad pornography addiction. I simply could not get enough of it. 3 or 4 times a day i would masturbate and besides smelling bad, i noticed that my desire became lessened. I no longer became as excited as i used to, so, for a brief period, i began looking at transexual porn, and than i started feeling a attraction to men. As soon as that happened, i stopped cold turkery. It distrubed me. I thought i was straight. Since i was 8 years old ive had a lustful attraction towards the other sex, but now, at 18, i no longer feel it. I felt as though maybe i wasnt straight. Maybe i was gay. Well, after a few months or so the desire waned and my usual predilection returned; this was probably due to me cooling it off with looking at the porn and my natural inclination reasserting itself. But the point is, i at one point could not even force myself to get aroused by women, but only men. What does this suggest about the nature of sexuality, and especially its deeply rooted emotional nature?

Being gay is not intrinsic. True, in some people the inclination is much more deeply rooted than in others. But this can be corrected. How, you ask? Well, i built the desire towards men by fantasizing about it. Literally, the more i did it the more i naturally began to experience the drive towards that sex. Conversely, when i desisted from engaging those thoughts, and instead cultivated the other, my inclination towards tht increased. Im not prescribing perversion or chronic masturbation before computer to correct your gayness, im only saying that what youre attracted to is intrinsically an unconscious, emotional condition, which manifests as the sex your attracted to.

How do you correct it?

Some testimonials of ex-gay orthodox Jewish men and women who overcame their homosexuality

Its a very subtle manner. Often, the root cause is a child experience which caused you to develop in this way.

What about those who say being gay is "genetic". Well, i would argue that your genes, or the genes being isolated to "proove" the genetic nature of being gay, can be changed. Thought influences the nervous system, no? and the nervous thus influences the rest of the organism, particularly the endocrine system, which in turn releases horomones which exerts its influence over consciousness. It appears, that, the power is in us, in our ability to choose what we think and what desires we choose to cultivate.

Modern culture wants us to believe that we cant change ourselves, above all, our desires. Those with a homosexual inclination are forever trapped in that state, so they think, and thus duped into willfully developing that attitude. Those with a pedophilic drive, although disgusting and wrong, are also told that they cant change, so they should castrate themselves. If you have a suicidal thought, go on drugs. etc. This is the ultimate form of mind control. Psychology itself is the mechanism, the grand lie and pseudoscience that tells us what we can or can not do. Its a law of the mind they say. The numinosity is simply too great to overcome. Rubbish. All of that is lies. Not only do we have the power to overcome any inclination, whether that be to hurt ourselves or engage in sodomy, but we have the ability to TRANSFORM that very desire. If its true that chemical differences can be discerned in people with a same sex inclination, than the willful change of thinking patterns and uncovering of unresolved unconscious emotional complexes will eventually change that production of that chemical, and have it producing whatever chemical is normally found in a sexually normal person.

For guys I think it may be permanent and there from birth (i have alot of gay friends). As for girls
it always seems they are 2 drinks from being gay. lol

ugh, I cant stand it anymore. I have refrained from every post about Gays I have come across since I have been a member...

Stop the madness, I mean really.... does it Really matter in the Big picture? Yes, some are genetic, Yes, some are just exploring, Yes, some had one cocktail to many and whatever happened.

No matter how you look at it, ALL these people are or were just going about their daily lives. Perhaps it really is meant to be a Normal thing and no Big Deal.

Me thinks some folks really need to lay off the guilt trips embedded into them since birth and just live and let live where ever their lives may take them for that particular day.

Originally posted by onehuman
ugh, I cant stand it anymore. I have refrained from every post about Gays I have come across since I have been a member...

Stop the madness, I mean really.... does it Really matter in the Big picture? Yes, some are genetic, Yes, some are just exploring, Yes, some had one cocktail to many and whatever happened.

No matter how you look at it, ALL these people are or were just going about their daily lives. Perhaps it really is meant to be a Normal thing and no Big Deal.

Me thinks some folks really need to lay off the guilt trips embedded into them since birth and just live and let live where ever their lives may take them for that particular day.

Um, maybe you should reread the point of the thread.

I am not tackling whether its right or wrong, but whether its intrinsic and cant be changed.

If its genetic, as some say, than even than, it isnt permanent anymore than any other emotional disorder.

Someone depressed produces more of a certain chemical and same with any other emotional imbalance. Can it be corrected with drugs? sure. can it be done without drugs, Yes!

Im attacking this myth that being gay is irreversible. Its a lie, and simply not based on any rational evidence. we see all the time how certain people are able to overcome the most extreme of emotional disorders, simply by correcting their thinking habits, and lo and behold, it actually changes their bodies chemistry.

I know this because my mom went through a very draamtic major depression which included many suicide attempts. for the past 8 years she has been fine, happy and strong. She runs every morning, jokes all the time and rarely gets depresssed. Miracle? or maybe her thoughts were directed in a intelligent and resolute manner. Yes, her circumstances certainly made it easier, but she did it. Also, cant forget the miraculous influence that G-d had for her inthis transformation. Even Jung, altough not a fan of his psychology, said that G-d as a psychic image or archetype grants numinosity, psychic force for people who turn to him. That was his, secular and rational opinion of it. Without G-d people handicap themselves and so turn to pills for their cure\enslavement.

In my opinion, G-d raises people because hes the source of all reality, and thus all energy and therefore can overcome any other psychic content, whatever it may be if the person is dogged enough.

I know its difficult sounding and it can be a hard pill to swallow for those who are convinced that being gay is a state of being, but it can be changed, if yuo decide thats what you want to do.

Depends.

Throw in bisexuality and you have someone who's both.

Its seems I'm the only adult here, so I answer you "boy"

You don't know the difference between a sexual orientation and an fetish, because your sexual education is based on pornos. Shrugs' who cares ..

reply to post by dontreally

How do you correct it?

If it is simply a learned condition, associative conditioning can be used to train new preferences and behaviors.

If it is an energy flow condition, it is more complex. Gender resembles electron flow in a circuit. If you put two negative leads into contact with each other, current does not flow. It is possible for a person of one biological gender to possess an energy flow that leads to an oposite-gender voltage. In such cases, simple change of preference through conditioning will not change the underlying condition. The energy flow must be addressed.

In any case, I would recommend against perceiving these things as conditions that are "broken" and in need of "correcting." I would recommend self examination by an individual to choose what sort of nature they want to have, and then seeking to acquire it.

reply to post by dontreally

those who are convinced that being gay is a state of being,
but it can be changed, if yuo decide thats what you want to do.

Yes, being gay is a state of being. And yes, it can be changed, as you say...if that's what you want to do. A person who is gay and wants not to be can alter themselves to no longer be gay. And a person who is straight and wants not to be can alter themselves to no longer be straight.

But "if that's what you want to do" is a stronger motivator than "if that's what somebody else wants you do."

I think that encouraging homosexuality is probably not a healthy direction for society. It is convenient when biological gender, trained preference and energy flow all agree with each other. Sort of like people who happen to really enjoy working out and genuinely prefer healthy foods have an easier time staying fit than people who don't. It doesn't make sense to encourage homosexuality any more than it makes sense to encourage people to lead sedentary lives and eat nothing but candy. But on the relative scheme of things, these don't need to be big problems.

Originally posted by LordBucket
reply to post by dontreally

 

How do you correct it?

If it is simply a learned condition, associative conditioning can be used to train new preferences and behaviors.

If it is an energy flow condition, it is more complex. Gender resembles electron flow in a circuit. If you put two negative leads into contact with each other, current does not flow. It is possible for a person of one biological gender to possess an energy flow that leads to an oposite-gender voltage. In such cases, simple change of preference through conditioning will not change the underlying condition. The energy flow must be addressed.

In any case, I would recommend against perceiving these things as conditions that are "broken" and in need of "correcting." I would recommend self examination by an individual to choose what sort of nature they want to have, and then seeking to acquire it.

edit on 14-11-2010 by LordBucket because: (no reason given)

Its not one of those things which can happen in a flash. It takes a life time of repitition. And yes, repitition, uncovering of emotional complexes and most of all, maturity, selflessness (and desisting from self persecution and pity) are key. Often, a slight change of perspective can open you up to a world which you were positive was impossible for you to ever experience. All it really takes is selflessness. Once the pain is let go of, and looked at rationally and objectively, what you desire seems to come to you. conversely, when you seek to correct something because the former state is painful, your attention to it serves to undermine your efficacy in correcting it. Its as if your conscious mind wants one thing, and the unconscious, the repressed feeling, wants another. this sorta psychic arrangement doesnt work, and it so undermines itself.

Its a very delicate matter and can take a lifetime, but its worth the effort. I have personally met a person who knew he was gay when he was 10 and lived that way up till 21, until he started working on himself, now at 30 hes completely reformed. He simply doesnt have the desire anymore and its his thinking patterns and RESPONSE to the feeling itself which was vital to his transformation. Its a very empowering feeling. Knowing you may feel one way, but the feeling isnt a command, simply a feeling which you can switch off if you simply assert yourself in a confident manner.

Originally posted by LordBucket
reply to post by dontreally

 

those who are convinced that being gay is a state of being,
but it can be changed, if yuo decide thats what you want to do.

Yes, being gay is a state of being. And yes, it can be changed, as you say...if that's what you want to do. A person who is gay and wants not to be can alter themselves to no longer be gay. And a person who is straight and wants not to be can alter themselves to no longer be straight.

But "if that's what you want to do" is a stronger motivator than "if that's what somebody else wants you do."

I think that encouraging homosexuality is probably not a healthy direction for society. It is convenient when biological gender, trained preference and energy flow all agree with each other. Sort of like people who happen to really enjoy working out and genuinely prefer healthy foods have an easier time staying fit than people who don't. It doesn't make sense to encourage homosexuality any more than it makes sense to encourage people to lead sedentary lives and eat nothing but candy. But on the relative scheme of things, these don't need to be big problems.

Sodomy, is just, wrong.

Intuitively its wrong, and there is simply no logical purpose in engaging in it. Not to mention how dirty and unhealthy it is for you (also leaves you incontinent). It is literally the paradigmatic state where a human debases himself and acts like an animal. Thus its apt that it was associated with animalistic gods like dionysus, pan etc.

Of course, moral arguments dont work on nihilists who give validity to all experiences. So, this is why i havent bothered with the moral aspect of whether its right or wrong.

Originally posted by thewarehouse
You don't know the difference between a sexual orientation and an fetish.

Excellent point and spot on (in my opinion).

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by thewarehouse
You don't know the difference between a sexual orientation and an fetish.

Excellent point and spot on (in my opinion).

what the hell did that point have to do with the actual point of the thread?

Seriously. Clean your eyeballs. Im adressing the myth that being gay is irreversible.

For some, its a fetish, a perverted sordid thing that gets them off. I get, its remarkably selfish and superficial. its about as primal, that is, debauched as a human can possibily act.

I didnt bother with the moral aspect, but the psycho-spiritual reality that it isnt anymore permanent than a depression. Just as there are those who can summon the strength (often through *G-d*) and willpower to overcome depression or serious emotional disorders like bipolar (yes, there are also those who have corrected this condition through discipline and diligence. but most of all, as with all emotional complexes, through humility and selflessness. Only egotists suffer from bi-polar and depression. Some willfully egotistic, and others not realizing thats it an egocentricity thats the root cause of their imbalance), so to can anyone - ANYONE, find the power to overcome their homosexuality.

Now, to a greco minded person this is a moot point. the question isnt if its permanent, but whats wrong with it. i wont even bother with taht. We are literally are on two different sides of the world on this topic.

also, i dont condemn homosexuals for being as they are, anymore than someone with a serious mental illness.

I feel bad for them, because they cant help the feelings that they have. Its a compassion without condoning.

G-d may have made you that way, but its your choice whether to act on it.

As my therapist friend always says, "an emotion is not a command".

If i can keep myself away from pornography, even though im often on the computer, for months at a time (with lapses here and there) than a gay person can keep himself (if he has a Abrahamic outlook) from having anal sex.

sorry

sorry

As a heterosexual male I simply have to ask...

Why would somebody who self identifies as "gay", "straight", "bi", or "celibate", or any other variant, want to alter their self-identity? I understand that there are probably people who "go through a phase" and are confused about things but these people aren't in any of the above categories. They are in a state of finding their own self-definition.

I know who and what I am and if anyone comes along and tries to tell me that I am not, or should not be "me" is in store for a major war. And social pressures, opinions, or ideas won't matter one iota to me.

It kind of amazes me that we, as a species, seem to have this urge to change anyone who doesn't share all of our own beliefs and outlooks and to assume that just because a person is different, they are wrong.

Another man being gay doesn't make me gay. Neither does my being straight make him straight.

~Heff

reply to post by dontreally

Its not one of those things which can happen in a flash.
It takes a life time of repitition.

Repetition is useful, but intensity is just as relevant. Also, early imprinting may be especially significant. The first time someone has an intense sexual experience is likely to stay with them for life. It's much easier to "unlearn" something acquired later. Someone whose very first sexual experience is a pleasurable and emotionally significant homosexual experience at an early age will have a more difficult time giving it up than someone who casually masturbated to gay porn a couple times in college.

Its a very delicate matter and can take a lifetime, but its worth the effort.

I expect that would be subjective. Some people adapt to their conditions more easily than others. Some conditions may be more difficult to overcome than others. To give an anology...imagine someone who is terrified of snakes to the point of having panic attacks whenever they see one. That's probably not a healthy condition. But if the choice is to spend "a lifetime" deconditioning to no longer be fearful of snakes...or just not go where there are snakes...not everybody is going to feel the need to invest the time and energy to decondition. In some cases it may make sense to simply let it go and focus on more important things.

Not to mention how dirty and unhealthy it is for you

So is smoking. And yes, people who choose to stop smoking can teach themselves to stop smoking. I agree that homosexuality might not be healthy, and I agree that it is a condition that can be overcome. But in terms of how unhealthy, I would put it in a similar category as smoking or being overweight. Not something we want to encourage. And these behaviors may often be indicative of a deeper problem. But they're probably not the end of the world either.

If i can keep myself away from pornography,
than a gay person can keep himself from having anal sex

I think that comparison is not a very fair one. Yes, you gave up porn, but could you give up heterosexuality? I think you could. There are people who choose celibacy for religious reasons. But do you see how that might be a bit more difficult than merely giving up porn? Can it be done? Yes, of course. And yes, homosexuals can stop acting on their desires, and with a properly disciplined mind they may be able to stop having those desires altogether.

But I wonder if your efforts might be better spent understanding the condition than telling others that they're dirty and animalistic for it.

Originally posted by Hefficide

As a heterosexual male I simply have to ask...

Why would somebody who self identifies as "gay", "straight", "bi", or "celibate", or any other variant, want to alter their self-identity? I understand that there are probably people who "go through a phase" and are confused about things but these people aren't in any of the above categories. They are in a state of finding their own self-definition.

I know who and what I am and if anyone comes along and tries to tell me that I am not, or should not be "me" is in store for a major war. And social pressures, opinions, or ideas won't matter one iota to me.

It kind of amazes me that we, as a species, seem to have this urge to change anyone who doesn't share all of our own beliefs and outlooks and to assume that just because a person is different, they are wrong.

Another man being gay doesn't make me gay. Neither does my being straight make him straight.

~Heff

Well if you looked at the subject from a NATURAL philosophical perspective, as i do, you would appreciate that the creator of reality reveals himself through nature. Not only that, but we as humans have a unique ability, unlike other creatures, to ponder the wonders of creation. Other creatures cant appreciate concepts, or ideas, or even think in words that give an approximate description of that reality.

The Torah looks at the world in this way. G-d created a higher world, from which this world is a projection of. Male and female dont go together because im some bigot, who wont accept to the contrary, male and female go together because male is half of a whole, and only a female can fill that other half. In the grander picture, the male is G-d, the creator, and the female is nature, the revelation of his own nature to us humans, who are created in his image (kabbalah explains how this is. its to be understood in only a metaphorical manner. G-ds head is not our head, but a spiritual concept which is symbolized here as a head etc). So, my objection to homosexuality isnt in a shallow judgemental way. It is judgemental in that its irrespnsible, that is, refusing to heed a metaphysical reality displayed all before us throughout creation.

Also, dont tell me that homosexuality exists in nature so god is telling us its ok. No. The whole concept of sodomy is abhorrent, and really only engaged in by the philosophically brazen and intellectually (im referring to those who try to justify this behavior, through philosophy) weak. Those who cant conceive of a greater universe look to immideate things, like sensual pleasure. Hence, we can thank the greeks mainly for this. They think very small with regard to the cosmos, and so they actually find their fullfilment in lowly and base things. Judaism, Christianity and Islam conversely try to imagine a deeper meaning behind life beyond the sensual, which should only exist to supplement and externalize this higher reality. With regard to Judaism, G-d is conceived as the totality of reality. But with the Torah itself, he commands man to sift the bad from the good.

Regardless of whether you think this is true or not, you have to atleast admit that its a lofty idea, which doesnt seek to persecute and demonize homosexuals. All thats demanded is that they realize that this is their Yetzer Ra. I have one, every one has one, an evil inclination. We all have two powers always speaking to us, the former seeks to unify us with our source, and the latter seeks to sever us from it. Homosexuality, is a severance. In fact, in Hebrew, the word for male prostitute, Kedusha, is from the root, Kodesh (translated often as holiness). A more exact translation of kodesh is "to be separate". Thus, one who makes himself holy separates himself from physicality, while one engages in promiscuity, and above all, sodomy, separates himself totally from the divine (this is an actual occultic practice which is for this precise purpose, to contact demonic powers). So, one who engages in this behavior should really see how selfish it is. Just as i, in my life situation, battle my evil inclination (im speaking totally with regard to people who seek to develop themselves spiritually) - with porn addiction, laziness, gluttony, egotism, so to does one with SSA have to work on this part of himself. Its that simple.

And its not "who you are". How ridiculous is that that people define themselves by which sex their attracted to. If im depressed, do i become a depressed person? These are emotional states that were in complete command of. I can change it (in the kabbalistic scheme - kabbalah being a system of psychology, yesod, the 6th sphere, is the lowest one of the emotional spheres. It recieves its nature from the powers up above - Netzach and Hod, both of which are responsible for behavior. Above them, however, is chesed and gevurah, which has the ablity to redirect the energy into the lower behavioral powers).

But i think you and others here have been adequately conditioned by the media machine which disgorges greek "spirituality" deep into our unconscious psyches. We all dont realize it, but were all Greeks (as many famous people have said). We speak in its language, and indeed, were all perforated by its powers, So, i wont bother debating the philosophy of why its wrong and we should, as intelligent creatures which have the power to know "one thing from another, and reflect upon its deeper meaning" understand that a certain behavior is wrong, and shameful, and below our dignity.