Revelation; Harlot Babylon (Pt2)- "Mother of Abominations"

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posted on Nov, 14 2010 @ 01:54 PM
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I want to offer some thoughts, once again, on the Harlot of Babylon, from Revelation ch17.

I find her a complex figure, so I'm trying to approach the subject from different angles.
She's holding in her hand "a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her fornication". I've already looked at the last ingredient in that heady mixture. Fornication (which relates to the unfaithfulnes of God's people) was my theme in the last discussion;
"The other woman"
I'm now going to be focussing on the first ingredient.

I'm going to be asking the question; what is meant by the "cup of abominations"?

What is meant by the cup?

The image comes from Jeremiah.
The Lord God of Israel speaks to the prophet and gives him this instruction;
"Take from my hand this cup of the wine of wrath, and make all the nations to whom I send you drink it. They shall drink and stagger and be crazed because of the sword which I am sending among them."- Jeremiah ch25 vv15-16
(In Ezekiel, this cup is also given to Judah, which links it with my previous theme;
"You shall drink your sister's cup which is deep and large;
You shall be laughed at and held in derision, for it contains much;
You will be filled with drunkenness and sorrow." - Ezekiel ch23 vv32-33)

This is clearly an imaginary cup, and I don't suppose that Jeremiah was really expected to do anything more than announce the fact that the cup had been sent.
The first key point in the metaphor is that the cup comes from God.
It is an instrument in his hands.
It represents what he's doing to bring down the nations of the world.
The meaning of the image seems to be that he carries out his purpose by undermining their ability to act effectively, and making them ridiculous, which is the effect of drinking strong wine.
This may include losing their sense of judgement, which is another effect of strong wine.
It has been said (anonymously, as far as I know); "Those whom God wishes to destroy, he first makes mad".
So the meaning is that the surrounding nations will be "knocked out" by what God is doing.

Babylon is listed among the nations drinking from the cup.
In a later passage, though, Babylon itself becomes the instrument of God's wrath;
"Babylon was a golden cup in the Lord's hand, making all the earth drunken;
The nations drank up her wine, therefore the nations went mad"
But this weapon is destroyed once God has finished with it;
"Suddenly Babylon has fallen and been broken; wail for her!"- Jeremiah ch51 vv7-8

So the message of that part of the image seems clear enough.
That golden cup in the Harlot's hand must be- though she may not know it- the instrument of God's wrath against the nations.
The effect of drinking from the cup must be that the nations would lose their sense of judgement, they would lose their abilty to act effectively.
And thus they would be "knocked over" and destroyed.

What is meant by "abomination"?

The Hebrew version of this word is found many times in the Old Testament.
Sometimes translated as "disgusting things", but the point is that God is the one who is disgusted.
I think the real heart of the concept can be found in the thought expressed in Deuteronomy ch13 vv13-14, where the name is applied to the proposal "let us go and serve other gods".
God's first and primary directive to his people was "You shall have no other gods but me".
Anything that breaks that command is offensive to God, and so might be called an "abomination".
The term is used for the gods of other nations- "Milcom, the abomination of the Ammonites"- 1 Kings ch11 v5
It includes the idols associated with their worship- "Cursed be the man who makes a graven or a molten image, an abomination to the Lord"- Deuteronomy ch27 v15
This includes, of course, the well-known Abomination that causes desolation.
The term can include anything else that has been associated with the worship of other gods- gold or silver stripped from their statues, or money brought in from sacred prostitution- Deuteronomy ch23 v18
Finally, it can be extended to bahaviour which is not really compatible with obedience to God, such as adultery and dishonesty- Proverbs ch 6 vv16-18

So the "golden cup" has told us that the nations will be rendered powerless.
And the "golden cup of abominations" tells us that they will be rendered powerless by their idolatry, their attachment to other gods.

Why is her name Babylon?

All the nations around israel had been idolatrous, from the Israelite viewpoint.
Why, then, should the image of multiple idolatry be associated with the name of Babylon?
I think the answer is that Babylon represents idolatry in conjunction with hostile power.
The Jewish religion, at home in Jerusalem, had been the "official" religion, with a dominant place in local society.
But the political arm of Babylonian power destroyed the Temple and the rest of the city of Jerusalem.
Then the Jewish religion of the exiles in Babylon had to survive in a completely different environment.
It was the religion of an uprooted social minority, attempting to compete with the multiple attractions of a religious culture which was on its home ground.
There was a danger of absorption into the local community, just as the "ten tribes" must have been absorbed in their won place of exile.
So the God of Israel has a controversy with the gods of Babylon, which we find described in the later chapters of Isaiah.
It is presented as a controversy between the Creator God and the gods which have been made by human hands;
"Bel bows down,Nebo stoops, their idols are on beasts and cattle...
To whom will you liken me and make me equal,
And compare me that we may be alike?"- Isaiah ch46 v1, v5
This controversy bears witness to a sense that the Jewish religion was fighting for its life.

And of course this religious arm of Babylonian power was closely associated with the political arm.
Babylon represents the conjunction between the two.
It appears in John's image not just in the use of the name Babylon, but also in the fact that she sits upon the Beast.

We can apply this picture, in the first place, to the circumstances of John's own time.
The Roman world, as Babylon had been, was a world of multiple religions. The Roman empire had brought many different cultures and their gods into one political structure. Religious authority and political authority were often found in combination. One of the most conspicuous links, locally, was the temple dedicated to "Rome and Augustus" in Pergamum, which may well be the "Satan's throne" mentioned in ch2.

The Christian community, as the Jews had been in Babylon, were a social minority, needing to struggle to keep themselves distinct from the idolatrous world around them. That is why Paul rebukes some of the Corinthians for taking part in the ritual ceremonies of other cults, "sharing meals with demons". As in Babylon, the very existence of the multiple religions is a religious danger in itself.

The only open conflict described in the New Testament is the riot in Ephesus, raised by the followers of the goddess known in Acts as "Diana of the Ephesians". Artemis, in the Greek. This was one version of the ancient "mother-goddess" religions of Asia Minor. Her temple at Ephesus was regarded as one of the "seven wonders of the world". She would certainly have been one of the more formidable rivals of the Christian faith in that region. It's possible, indeed, that she might be seen as taking the lead in non-Biblical popular religions, that her prominence might be one of the reasons for depicting this figure of idolatry as female.

My understanding, then, is that this Harlot represents the idolatry of the surrounding world, possibly led by Artemis. Part of the meaning of the image of the "cup" seems to be that idolatry takes away the sense of judgement. This Harlot is resting on the Beast, finding support in political power. But the end of the chapter tells us how the Beast finally turns against her and destroys her. And we find in history that the religions of the Roman world came to an end when they lost the support of the Roman imperial authority.

(Being continued in supplemental post)




posted on Nov, 14 2010 @ 01:55 PM
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SUPPLEMENT

Once again, I'm detaching these observations from the OP, because they'll be wandering away from the direct support of the text.

I want to speculate on the way this picture might be applied to the circumstances of a later church.
The two key points were that this woman represents a multiplicity of religions (holding the golden cup) and that she has a close connection with political authority (sitting on the Beast).
The modern world has given us, once again, the multiplicity of religions. We could call that the golden cup.
But the modern world has not yet produced a central political authority, and so we can't have the close conjunction between the two kinds of authority. The Harlot is not yet sitting on the Beast.

While we're waiting, let's consifder the possibility that the Harlot might represent the bringing together, in some way, of the multiple religions. This has been the subject of speculation, that there might be a "uniting" of world religions. It doesn't necessarily follow from the picture in this chapter, but it would certainly make the "conjunction of authorities" much more workable.

In what way could the religions be brought together?
Is "inter-faith dialogue" likely to get anywhere?
I believe this movement would like to present itself as the natural progression from the ecumenical movement.
But the ecumenical movement has been attempting to bring together groups- such as Methodists, Baptists, Anglicans, Roman Catholics- which are, in principle, just quarrelling servants of the same Master.
Whereas the various religions of the world have been founded on principles which are not just different but even contradictory.

What about the possibility that religions could be united "at the top"?
This would be analogous to the way that Queen Elizabeth unites the Commonwealth by having different roles in different countries- Queen of the United Kingdom, Queen of Canada, Duke of Normandy, and so on.
In the same way, a man could be presenting himself as the returned Christ, and also, at the same time, as equivalent figures in other religions.
The Rev. Sun Myung Moon, who is supposed to be one of the candidates, puts it like this;
"The Lord of the Second Advent, who comes as the central figure of Christianity, will also play the role of Buddha, whom Buddhists believe will come again, as well as the role of the "True man" whose appearance Confucianists anticipate, and "Chung Do Ryung" ("Herald of the Righteous Way") whom many Koreans expect to come. In addition, he will also play the role of the central figure whom all other religions await"-
Sun Myung Moon, "Divine principle", ch5 section3- "Unification of Religions by Resurrection through Second Coming"
In a similar vein, Benjamin Creme offers a Maitreya who will also be a Christ figure, and so on, and so on.

However- none of these candidates can unite the major religions of the world until they have first convinced the major religions of the world, and none of them, yet, has convinced even one of the major religious communities. If they did succeed with one, that would probably disable them from succeeding with the others. The Jews will not be willing to follow a man who presents himself as the returned Christ. Christians in general will not follow a man with a Buddhist title. And the Muslims will be suspicious of both.

How can these barriers be overcome? There would need to be an additional force of some kind, which would provide the necessary impetus
Rev. Moon expects to find his force in the spirits of the dead; "the spirit men who believed in religions other than Christianity whole on earth will have to come again...they are destined to descend to the earthly men who belong to their religions and lead them to the Lord of the Second Advent, co-operating with them to believe in and serve him for the accomplishment of the will of God" (ibid)

My own proposed solution follows on from my interpretation of the rest of Revelation.
I've argued, elsewhere, that the "Four Horsemen" episode of ch6 would be a great catastrophe for the world at large, which would bring human society close to collapse.
In the timeline of Revelation, the reign of the Beast seems to follow this episode.
I have suggested that the two Beasts described in ch13 (the World-state and the individual leader) would be able to rise to power on the strength of their ability to lead the world into recovery from this collapse.
By "saving the world" in this way, the second Beast would gain immense political prestige.
I now suggest that the same work of "saving the world" would also gain him religious prestige.
Whether he was a religious figure taking on a political role, or a political figure taking on a religious role, it might well be possible for him to combine the two, and thus enforce recognition of himself as the returned Christ and also as equivalent figures in other religions.

Finally, we must remind ourselves that the Harlot figure in ch17 is female, which might be significant.
I've already remarked on the prominence of the great mother-goddess(es) of John's time.
In the modern world, we are seeing something of a conscious revival of this.
So I project the possibility that this kind of devotion would, increasingly, finds its focus in personification of the concept of Gaia;
And that this personification of Gaia would come to take a leading role in the unification of world religions.
She would appear to represent a common interest of the world.
She would have no roots in any one of the major traditional world religions, of the kind which would make her less acceptable to the others.
Her link with the Beast might be that the Beast would present himself as her son or husband.
There would be a very obvious superficial resemblance to the traditional mother-figure of Mary. It seems plausible that at least some of the devotees of Mary might be tempted by this resemblance into putting their faith into a kind of fusion between the two. Such a fused Gaia-Mary figure could be a very important tool for the Beast for bringing the structures of the Christian church into his own religious structures.

This, then. could be a more modern version of the Harlot. the religions of the world resting upon the authority of the Beast.
I've already observed that the effect of the "cup of abominations" was supposed to be to take away the sense of judgement of the world.
And we also need to remember, once again, that the fate of the Harlot, as described at the end of the chapter, is to be destroyed by the Beast.









edit on 14-11-2010 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 14 2010 @ 02:06 PM
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Here is an interesting take on it

www.freeread.com...


Next we are told the woman has "a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication."

The golden cup symbolizes the beautiful outward appearance of those submerged in materialism. They seem to have the golden touch. They have a fine home, car, clothes, jewelry, etc. But what was the cost that was paid? Many sell out their spiritual self and all the value they really have is based on illusion, which is the true abomination.

"And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH." (Revelation 17:5)

It is interesting that the servants of God receive the seal and name of God in their foreheads and the servants of the Beast receive his mark in their foreheads. Now we see that the woman also receives a mark or name in her forehead.

In Rome in John's day the prostitutes wore a frontlet on their foreheads which had their name written thereon for identification.

Where is the name in the forehead of those wrapped in materialism?

The forehead symbolizes thought and intention. This merely tells us that that those who are part of the female prostitute are identified with "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH."

Let us analyze each part of the above name of this female prostitute to see what it reveals to us:

* MYSTERY: Those caught up in materialism are also caught up in mystery. The female nature is a mystery and the right use of female energy is feared and suppressed. God and creation is a mystery, money is a mystery, their lot in life is a mystery and their belief system is often based upon mysteries to which they have no reasonable explanation. And, most of all, the part played by materialism and selfishness in creating the problems and suffering in the world is a mystery. Because of these mysteries they are motivated to "eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die."
* BABYLON: Babylon signifies confusion because of improper mixing. Those caught in materialism mix in some religion and maybe even a little philanthropy for show to hide their real motives. This mixing of God and mammon creates confusion and illusion that makes it difficult to be delivered into the world of spirit.
* THE GREAT: Greatness is seen in worldly power and money rather than in spiritual power, intelligence and character.
* MOTHER OF HARLOTS: Wrong use of money causes people to prostitute their true nature and female energy.
* ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH: Whenever you hear of something happening that causes your stomach to turn there is wrong use of money and material goods involved somewhere along the way.


www.freeread.com...

It is time for the Lights to understand the mystery of Babylon the great, which soon will fall! Babylon is that power, glamour, or thoughtform which holds the attention of the minds of men focused on false gods and images of gods. Men bow down and worship the image of gold and glitter without realizing that the true god is within. The spirit of God that dwells in each of us is the true God and when we seek for God in heaven, a flying saucer, or in the form of a Master or even resurrected and glorified man we bow down to Babylon the great which "is drunk on the blood of the prophets." [See Revelation 16:6 & 17:6.] Babylon demands that all men bow down to some image, dogma, or creed and when holy men of the past have refused this they were slain for their testimony of the true God.

All false religion has "Mystery Babylon the great, the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth" (Revelation 17:5) written on her forehead, or they have the image of their creed engraved in their mind locking the door to the truths of the Holy Spirit. They are completely closed minded to any new truth for all that they will let come within the realms of their thoughts is "Mystery Babylon."

Indeed, Babylon is still with us for the false gods without and the engraven images of creeds and dogmas based on illusion and glamour abound. The day is coming and the call is issued for the Lights of Israel to "come out of her" both mentally and physically "that we be not partakers of her sins nor receive of her plagues" (Revelation 18:4) for the hour of her judgment is coming and the stone which is cut out of the mountain without hands will strike Babylon and pulverize her and in one hour "the great city Babylon shall be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all." (Revelation 18:21)
edit on 14-11-2010 by hawkiye because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 14 2010 @ 02:12 PM
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Its the Statue Of Liberty. (no I'm not joking)

That is, if I were to believe in such things, which I do not.



posted on Nov, 14 2010 @ 02:14 PM
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In revelation when it talks about the fall of Babylon and how people lament because of the pearls and cloth and riches that are lost, and they can not trade with Babylon anymore...well I always figured that the United States was Babylon.

I mean, many people claim that they'd be delighted if the United States were wiped off the map. But we do trade with others, provide food, and are allies for some. If suddenly the United States were just gone, either gone as in really gone in a nuclear attack or gone economically, I think people would lament about it.

Although they may not lament for the people themselves, or the land, or the animals, or even the environment, they may lament the loss of someone to trade with.



posted on Nov, 14 2010 @ 02:19 PM
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from the authorized version of the king james the first masonic king in europe bible

17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

1 plus 7 plus 5 equals 13
there are 13 capitalized words

can get the letters for mason out of abominations
and the letters for freemasons out of the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth

maybe that is why they are always a-bombin nations



posted on Nov, 14 2010 @ 02:24 PM
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Originally posted by necramericanomicon
from the authorized version of the king james the first masonic king in europe bible


maybe that is why they are always a-bombin nations


LMAO.
Sounds about right to me.
Second line.



posted on Nov, 14 2010 @ 03:34 PM
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The editing of the "Supplement" post has now been completed.
My apologies for the delay.
edit on 14-11-2010 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 14 2010 @ 04:03 PM
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Originally posted by jessieg
In revelation when it talks about the fall of Babylon and how people lament because of the pearls and cloth and riches that are lost, and they can not trade with Babylon anymore...well I always figured that the United States was Babylon.

I mean, many people claim that they'd be delighted if the United States were wiped off the map. But we do trade with others, provide food, and are allies for some. If suddenly the United States were just gone, either gone as in really gone in a nuclear attack or gone economically, I think people would lament about it.

Although they may not lament for the people themselves, or the land, or the animals, or even the environment, they may lament the loss of someone to trade with.


Babylon, the Ancient sit of the Nation State, is the same place exactly as Ancient Babylon was. The American army did the raping of the country's riches, we have heard stories of big trucks loaded with gold and money being shipped out, and the museums are looted too. So now I would guess America is the new Babylon?

We must always remember that the island of Patmos is well known for Amanita muscaria mushrooms, which there is not one doubt that St. John consumed before he wrote the book of Revelations. I have done red caps before, and I can easily see how St. John could "see" the things he says he saw, the visions that compelled him to write, and we must not forget St. John was an outcast, and was really angry at being made to live on the Island.

I too had a vision of this event not too long ago, it can be found here:
Vision about the Woman of Revelation 12

I quote myself here with the gist of the vision:




I had a vivid vision about the Woman, and I will relate it here. In the vision I saw the Sun grow with wild abandon, and began to throw off plasma streams toward Earth. I saw the electronic/magnetic field that protects Earth begin to collapse, and the surface begin to burn. At the same time I saw a beautiful woman, heavy with child, and she had a crown of stars and was like the lady in Revelations. Chasing her was a very large Dragon, and the Dragon was spitting fire from it's mouth at the woman. The lady screamed in pain, but was suddenly taken by the hand and led away from the beast. Then I saw Earth again, and by now it was really on fire, the plasma from the Sun was consuming it. Then I saw that a very large craft, bigger that Earth by several times, and saucer shaped, begin to tow planet Earth away from the Sun. The course I saw plotted was to the Pleiades System. Then I again saw the woman, but this time she was being cared for, and was no longer in danger from the Dragon.


As the vision shows, I believe the "woman" is Mother Earth being chased by the Dragon of Christianity, the one they all blindly give power to with Jesus worship. Mother Earth is pregnant with the new world, and religion will try to kill or control her, but She will prevail and give birth.
That is my take on it, for what it's worth to this thread.



posted on Nov, 14 2010 @ 04:52 PM
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Originally posted by autowrench
We must always remember that the island of Patmos is well known for Amanita muscaria mushrooms, which there is not one doubt that St. John consumed before he wrote the book of Revelations.

Thank you for your comments. A couple of remarks I want to make on them.

In the first place, if you go through this book Revelation and make careful comparisons with the Old Testament, it becomes very clear that most of the images are actually echoes of images in the Old Testament, which is very important for understanding their meaning. Therefore it isn't necessary to resort to "mushrooms" to explain them. You only have to assume that John was very familiar with the Old Testament. Which was probably true for everybody in the church in those days.

Secondly, you refer to the woman of ch12, and completely overlook the fact that these are two different women. They are the good sister and the bad sister.
The good sister is described in this thread;The Woman in Heaven
The bad sister is described in this thread;"The other woman"

Finally, let me observe that this book is completely permeated with the Christian faith.
The vision seen in the first chapter is the person of Jesus Christ.
The doctrine of the Atonement, through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, is clearly presented in ch5 as the key and foundation of the whole book.
The "battle in heaven" in ch12, and the fall of Satan from heaven, is in itself a dramatised version of that same doctrine of the Atonement.
This book is rooted in the person of Jesus all the way from the beginning to the end.
Therefore "the dragon=Christianity" cannot be part of the intended meaning of the book.




edit on 14-11-2010 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 14 2010 @ 05:07 PM
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reply to post by DISRAELI
 


Another great, thought provoking OP~

Points to ponder...

The Apostle John often refers back to his own Gospel and his letters (in my very humble opinion)...
we can glean much insight if we keep this in mind when we read the Book of Revelation.

One example... in 1 John 18-19:
"Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."

A great job all around, and much to think about, my friend...kudos.



posted on Nov, 14 2010 @ 05:11 PM
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reply to post by thegoodearth
 

Thank you for those comments.
Yes, that letter from John speaks very directly to the phenomenon of "unfaithfulness", which is very definitely an important part of the picture. It was the side of things I was focussing on last time, though "idolatry" and "unfaithfulness" might be very closely tangled together in the practical realities.




edit on 14-11-2010 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 14 2010 @ 06:16 PM
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reply to post by hawkiye
 

I checked the site to which you linked us, and I'd like to comment on a couple of features.
I think they go together.
One feature is that it is hoping to promote a unity between different religions. It's very ironic that you should be offering that feature even as I was in the middle of typing my "Supplement" post, describing the promotion of unity between religions as one of the likely attributes of the "Harlot of Babylon". Talk about apposite! I could hardly ask for a more appropriate illustration of the phenomenon I had been talking about.

The other feature is that the God being promoted on that site is not the Biblical God, the Creator of the world, but rather the self-centred "internal" god of those who don't really want to believe in anything except themselves;

The spirit of God that dwells in each of us is the true Giod

But believing in the "inner self" is just as idolatrous as believing in a graven or molten image. It is a putting of trust in something which is not the Creator.

The existence of that site illustrates just how much the "Harlot of Babylon" phenomenon pervades the religious world, in so many different guises.



posted on Nov, 14 2010 @ 06:37 PM
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the 'golden cup' the woman holds is in reality the Holy Grail that the fervent religious
followers seek, and which books and movies have sprung up to interest all the religious extremists...

its a mystical cup, perhaps even a 'Chalice'... which symbolizes the delusion of the ages...
the contents of this cup are the 'blood' of humanity and all filthy abominations ...
which is also a symbolic 'Wine' ...
here is wisdom--- the pious are not whom they seem



posted on Nov, 14 2010 @ 06:41 PM
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reply to post by Sky watcher
 


good to hear that somebody thinks their punched-up kjv material is funny
guess that we should laugh while we still can

here's another one

The Revelation of Saint John the Divine (33 letters, the masonic degree of the knight templar in the york rite)
22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last

can get the letters for freemasons
13 is the day date when the knight templars were arrested in france in 1307
22 is the day date for their being declared anathema heretics by the then french catholic church

if you want screaming bellylaughs until you have fallen down and can't get up, read A Pilgrim's Path: Freemasonry and the Religious Right by John J. Robinson

a retired officer of the u. s. marine corps who became a historian, he writes that the authors of the kjv fabricated the story of lucifer the fallen angel out of whole cloth and inserted into the book of daniel in the old testament and the book of revelation in the new testament
edit on 14-11-2010 by necramericanomicon because: corrected typos



posted on Nov, 14 2010 @ 06:42 PM
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I know why or how but when I see this thread's title...the name Sarah Palin pop out inside my head.
second line.



posted on Nov, 14 2010 @ 06:45 PM
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reply to post by St Udio
 

Is it really the religious people who are fascinated by the "Holy Grail" stuff?
Or just the same people who get interested in other "mysterious" things, like ghosts, UFO's, etc?
I know I've got no interest in the Holy Grail obsession myself.
But "delusion", certainly. It's definitely about delusion. That's why all who drink it are left helpless and incapable.





edit on 14-11-2010 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 14 2010 @ 07:30 PM
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Originally posted by jessieg
In revelation when it talks about the fall of Babylon and how people lament because of the pearls and cloth and riches that are lost, and they can not trade with Babylon anymore...well I always figured that the United States was Babylon.

Thank you for those comments.
I have by no means finished with the subject of Babylon. As I said, she's a very complicated person. This is the more political side, that I'm hoping to look at later. Those particular comments come from ch18, and I'm going to give that separate treatment as well.
My thoughts are still very fluid about whether America fits into the picture.
edit on 14-11-2010 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 14 2010 @ 08:24 PM
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Originally posted by necramericanomicon
he writes that the authors of the kjv fabricated the story of lucifer the fallen angel out of whole cloth and inserted into the book of daniel in the old testament and the book of revelation in the new testament

Not possible. It would have been noticed.
Think of the practicalities. There are hundreds of ancient manuscripts; there are many mediaeval Bibles; there are many older editons of printed Bible. All these come before the time of the AV. If a new story had been inserted into the AV, it would have been compared with all these older Bibles and the difference would have been noticed.
All these conspiracy theory stories of things being put into the Bible or taken out of the Bible fall down on the absence of before-and-after evidence of Bible editions.



posted on Nov, 14 2010 @ 09:05 PM
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reply to post by DISRAELI
 


Not possible. It would have been noticed.
Think of the practicalities. There are hundreds of ancient manuscripts; there are many mediaeval Bibles; there are many older editons of printed Bible. All these come before the time of the AV. If a new story had been inserted into the AV, it would have been compared with all these older Bibles and the difference would have been noticed.
All these conspiracy theory stories of things being put into the Bible or taken out of the Bible fall down on the absence of before-and-after evidence of Bible editions.
================================================================================
period possible. you don't understand the implications of what being authorized by freemasonic king james meant back in the 1500s...that his word was law

and the kjv was translated by some of the best freemasonic literary punch-up talent of that day...roger "extra crispy" bacon and edward "vere-do" devere, who have been said to have ghostwritten some of shakespeare's more rosicrucian globefests like "the tempest" which was about john dee

the st. albans boys' prep school in washington dc that al gore et al went to was named after francis bacon

i don't know what world you are living in, but it isn't the freemasons, cause they own this one. period.





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