Right Back At Ya: Bush rebuff to Chirac over Turkey

Originally posted by EastCoastKid

How many Americans understand that France has saved our a$$ in the past and has been one of our strongest allies and friends in the world? We should treat them with more respect.

When exactly did france save americas a$$ I seem to remember the United states saving their a$$ in WW2. How many french have died protecting the US from a invading country? They have been a good allies in the past but things change over time I wouldnt consider them are best allies though I would have to give that title to England and we had a war with them so it just shows you how much things can change.

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
When exactly did france save americas a$$ I seem to remember the United states saving their a$$ in WW2.

Ever hear of little thing called the Revolutionary War?

I actually support Chirac on this. Turkey is a poor, backwards, and moslem country (98% or something like that) and with a population of over 70,000,000 it could easily muscle in on Europe; It doesn't belong in the EU. And most importantly, Turkey isn't even in Europe! Having a little sliver of land (Thrace) on the other side of the Bosphorus doesn't make the country European. I mean, everything close to Europe is simply Turkish-occupied Greece. I've always wondered why I don't hear Christians calling for the liberation of the Holy City of the East: Constantinople.

Oh, sorry folks, just going on my anti-Turkish rant.

I don't care either way, personally. But I don't think it's for Bush to pressure European countries in European policy. It only relates to the US in that we're allies with Turkey.

If Chirac came over here and told us we needed to open our borders with Mexico and Canada because of free trade (or whatever) the very same people defending Bush right now would be condemning Chirac for nosing into our business. Can't have it both ways.

Would it make sense to add Israel, Jordan, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Saudia Arabia, India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Russia, and China to the EU? I mean they are all connected. When does the EU stop going east? Or is the entire plan to get all of the connected land under control of the EU. The EU can even go into Egypt and on through Africa next....

Originally posted by Eastern_Diamondback
Turkey is a poor, backwards, and moslem country And most importantly, Turkey isn't even in Europe! Oh, sorry folks, just going on my anti-Turkish rant.

Why do you consider Turkey a backward Muslim country? Is it because they have found a great deal of success with secularism? Too much democracy? Not beholden to the clerics?

Also I don't know what map your looking at - but everyone I looked at shows Turkey as part of Europe.

Map of Europe

Yea, it shows Russia, parts of the Middle East and Africa as well. We can scratch africa and ask where does the European "continent" end?

Originally posted by Jamuhn
Yea, it shows Russia, parts of the Middle East and Africa as well. We can scratch africa and ask where does the European "continent" end?

Funny guy. Where did list show Africa as part of Europe? I copied the list of countries considered part of Europe. And yes the last time I checked Russia covered parts of Europe and Asia.

Albania, Andorra, Austria, Belarus, Belgium, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Channel Islands (UK), Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Gibraltar (UK), Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Macedonia, Malta, Moldova, Monaco, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Russia, San Marino, Serbia and Montenegro, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey, Ukraine, United Kingdom, Vatican City

I agree. I hate Bush, but I do enjoy his verbal bitch slaps to Chirrac.

I do not like that bastard. The only reason he opposed the Iraq war is he didnt want to lose money. With all the backdoor dealings the French were doing with saddam, and all the money he owed them, they didnt want to lose out. He is as dirty as Bush is.

And youre right about the EU. France wants to run the thing. They couldnt do it with the sword, so now they are taking over with paperwork and burocracy. Go figure.

I dunno why they dont want Turkey in the EU. Its not liek Europe doesnt already have half of Turkey's population living within thier borders. Turkey also defied the US and was going to deny them use of thier airspace and land for the Iraq invasion to curry favor with the EU. So what is the problem anyway?

I still enjoy anything that screws with the French.

Funny guy. Where did list show Africa as part of Europe? I copied the list of countries considered part of Europe. And yes the last time I checked Russia covered parts of Europe and Asia.

Oh ok, then, I didn't see the list of countries. I wouldn't agree that Russia is part of Europe though, but anyway, my point was how far will the EU go in allowing people into the EU. I see that Turkey is technically part of Europe, but what would stop EU from annexing other countries.
I'm not saying Turkey shouldn't be allowed for this reason now, but once Turkey is in the EU, what would stop the EU from saying well, Israel is right next door, Jordan is right next door, etc., etc..

Why do you consider Turkey a backward Muslim country? Is it because they have found a great deal of success with secularism? Too much democracy? Not beholden to the clerics?

Turkey has an unemployment/underemployment rate of 17.4%, has a GDP of $6,700. Secularism has to be actively enforced. That's not what I'd consider stable.

Also I don't know what map your looking at - but everyone I looked at shows Turkey as part of Europe.

I use the traditional boundaries. Russia to the Urals, the Land north and west of the Dardanelles, Sea of Marmara, and the Bosphorus. Only a sliver of Turkey is actually in Europe, Thrace, and this is historically Greek land occupied by the Turks. Ionia and Pontus are too, but they aren't part of this discussion.

Originally posted by Eastern_Diamondback
Turkey has an unemployment/underemployment rate of 17.4%, has a GDP of $6,700. Secularism has to be actively enforced. That's not what I'd consider stable.

How is that backward?

With regard to Turkey's unemployment rate, I noticed that it varied by source. Some sites I looked at support double digit u/c - other sites show much less:

Turkey's official unemployment rate is lower than that of most EU countries�six to seven percent in the 1990s

and

Bringing up some impressive statistics, �iller quoted Turkey's economic growth rate, which at around eight percent in 1996 and 1997, was double that of any other European country. In addition, �iller claimed that while Turkey's unemployment rate of seven to eight percent was high for Turkey, it was nevertheless lower that that in Germany, France, Italy, and Spain. �iller also stated that Turkey was well ahead of other European countries in areas such as energy production and telecommunications.

I also found this in a German paper:

The jobless figures underlined the difference between more-prosperous western Germany, with an unemployment rate of 8.9 percent, and the formerly communist east, at 19.1 percent.

Should Germany be kicked out of the EU?

You also noted:

I use the traditional boundaries. Only a sliver of Turkey is actually in Europe, Thrace, and this is historically Greek land occupied by the Turks. Ionia and Pontus are too, but they aren't part of this discussion.

Then why mention it, unless to dismiss Turkey.

As far as the enforcement of secularism. We have similar problems in the US with the religious right. Turkey has managed to remain secular all on its own.

So I'm stil having trouble with why you think they are backward or any more so than the rest of the West?

I'd recommend the CIA's World Factbook.

www.odci.gov...

GDP - per capita: purchasing power parity - $6,700 (2003 est.)

Unemployment rate: 11.3% (plus underemployment of 6.1%) (2003 est.)

Note, the underemployment as well.

It seems they suffered from a recession recently, but they are on the rebound. Whether they are strong enough to sustain growth will decide if they can make it to the EU. But I doubt they are ready at present.

Originally posted by Bleys

Originally posted by Eastern_Diamondback
Turkey has an unemployment/underemployment rate of 17.4%, has a GDP of $6,700. Secularism has to be actively enforced. That's not what I'd consider stable.

How is that backward?

With regard to Turkey's unemployment rate, I noticed that it varied by source. Some sites I looked at support double digit u/c - other sites show much less:

I used the most recent 2003 figures at the CIA world factbook. When it comes to low GDP and high un/under-employment, it becomes a problem for the rest of the EU who must pick up the slack for the administration of a country that isn't pulling it's own weight.

Turkey's official unemployment rate is lower than that of most EU countries�six to seven percent in the 1990s

and

Bringing up some impressive statistics, �iller quoted Turkey's economic growth rate, which at around eight percent in 1996 and 1997, was double that of any other European country. In addition, �iller claimed that while Turkey's unemployment rate of seven to eight percent was high for Turkey, it was nevertheless lower that that in Germany, France, Italy, and Spain. �iller also stated that Turkey was well ahead of other European countries in areas such as energy production and telecommunications.

Growth is a matter of percentages. Any gains in a smaller economy will be reflected by larger percentage growth than in larger economies.

I also found this in a German paper:

The jobless figures underlined the difference between more-prosperous western Germany, with an unemployment rate of 8.9 percent, and the formerly communist east, at 19.1 percent.

Should Germany be kicked out of the EU?

Well, considering Germany actually is in Europe and is an economic powerhouse, no. But don't pretend that resentment between the West and the former communist East doesn't exist. But the economic strength of Germany rests in the West, especially the Frankfurt area and the Rhine valley.

You also noted:

I use the traditional boundaries. Only a sliver of Turkey is actually in Europe, Thrace, and this is historically Greek land occupied by the Turks. Ionia and Pontus are too, but they aren't part of this discussion.

Then why mention it, unless to dismiss Turkey.

I am dismissing Turkey.

As far as the enforcement of secularism. We have similar problems in the US with the religious right. Turkey has managed to remain secular all on its own.

American Christian fundamentalist are not on the same level as Moslem fundamentalists. In terms of religious fervor, A Christian fundamentalist is on par with a moderate Moslem.

So I'm stil having trouble with why you think they are backward or any more so than the rest of the West?

Turks are not Europeans. Turkey is not in Europe. Their GDP is about 1/3 that of Greece. They have high unemployment. I mean what more do you need here?

Originally posted by Bleys

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
When exactly did france save americas a$$ I seem to remember the United states saving their a$$ in WW2.

Ever hear of little thing called the Revolutionary War?

Please elaborate. I'm interested in some of the facts, what did France contribute to the US winning its independence? I tried searching the web and found nothing. I don't really know too much about this war and you seem to.

Originally posted by Sauron

Don�t forget where the Statue of Liberty came from.

Never forget

Originally posted by GriBiT

Originally posted by Bleys

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
When exactly did france save americas a$$ I seem to remember the United states saving their a$$ in WW2.

Ever hear of little thing called the Revolutionary War?

Please elaborate. I'm interested in some of the facts, what did France contribute to the US winning its independence? I tried searching the web and found nothing. I don't really know too much about this war and you seem to.

Is this a joke? If you don't know, and you're American, then shame on you. But maybe this will help a little:

www.historyplace.com...

www.historyplace.com...

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
Who is Bush to tell Europe what to do? He's not their leader. He seems to be under the impression he's the f@#ing Emperor of the Universe.

Flame me all you want, but it's nice to see someone has the balls to put him in his place.

the odd thing that its a frenchman. when was the last time that happened?

heres some french military history for ya.


Gallic Wars
- Lost. In a war whose ending foreshadows the next 2000 years of French history, France is conquered by of all things, an Italian.

- Hundred Years War
- Mostly lost, saved at last by female schizophrenic who inadvertently creates The First Rule of French Warfare; "France's armies are victorious only when not led by a Frenchman." Sainted.

- Italian Wars
- Lost. France becomes the first and only country to ever lose two wars when fighting Italians.

- Wars of Religion
- France goes 0-5-4 against the Huguenots

- Thirty Years War
- France is technically not a participant, but manages to get invaded anyway. Claims a tie on the basis that eventually the other participants started ignoring her.

- War of Revolution
- Tied. Frenchmen take to wearing red flowerpots as chapeaux.

- The Dutch War
- Tied

- War of the Augsburg League/King William's War/French and Indian War
- Lost, but claimed as a tie. Three ties in a row induces deluded Frogophiles the world over to label the period as the height of French military power.

- War of the Spanish Succession
- Lost. The War also gave the French their first taste of a Marlborough, which they have loved every since.

- American Revolution
- In a move that will become quite familiar to future Americans, France claims a win even though the English colonists saw far more action. This is later known as "de Gaulle Syndrome", and leads to the Second Rule of French Warfare; "France only wins when America does most of the fighting."

- French Revolution
- Won, primarily due the fact that the opponent was also French.

- The Napoleonic Wars
- Lost. Temporary victories (remember the First Rule!) due to leadership of a Corsican, who ended up being no match for a British footwear designer.

- The Franco-Prussian War
- Lost. Germany first plays the role of drunk Frat boy to France's ugly girl home alone on a Saturday night.

- World War I
- Tied and on the way to losing, France is saved by the United States. Thousands of French women find out what it's like to not only sleep with a winner, but one who doesn't call her "Fraulein." Sadly, widespread use of condoms by American forces forestalls any improvement in the French bloodline.

- World War II
- Lost. Conquered French liberated by the United States and Britain just as they finish learning the Horst Wessel Song.

- War in Indochina
- Lost. French forces plead sickness; take to bed with the Dien Bien Flu

- Algerian Rebellion
- Lost. Loss marks the first defeat of a western army by a Non-Turkic Muslim force since the Crusades, and produces the First Rule of Muslim Warfare; "We can always beat the French." This rule is identical to the First Rules of the Italians, Russians, Germans, English, Dutch, Spanish, Vietnamese and Esquimaux.

- War on Terrorism
- France, keeping in mind its recent history, surrenders to Germans and Muslims just to be safe. Attempts to surrender to Vietnamese ambassador fail after he takes refuge in a McDonald's.

The question for any country silly enough to count on the French should not be "Can we count on the French?", but rather "How long until France collapses?"

"Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without an accordion. All you do is leave behind a lot of noisy baggage."

Or, better still, the quote from last week's Wall Street Journal: "They're there when they need you."



i espically like the WWI paragraph. enjoy

[edit on 7-1-2004 by KrazyIvan]

That's pretty funny

not entirely fair, but still very funny.

I tell you what though, say what you like about the French, but one thing they do have is a seriously hard Riot Police force, the Gendarmerie.



They may not look much in this picture, but I've seen them in Paris once responding to protest. They don't mess about, and like Special forces, they get to choose their own weapons. They are often sent abroad to quell civil uprisings and riots!

Part police... part army. scary.