You think you deserve to earn more than $200k a year?

I guess it's hard to stereotype everyone into neat catagories, and I can only base my opinion on anecdotal evidence. In any case working hard doesn't prove you're owed anything, it's only about your value to our wonderful slash and burn economical system.

I know many people who work themselves to death literally, and just get by. I know about the same number of people who have it "made" so to speak and make more than 200K a year, and they don't break a sweat. They live the lavish live and enjoy every bit of it.

I know very very few people who work very hard and deserve it. I'd say 1-2%--because most of the people who have the money make other people do the work for them because they can.


So, no, you don't deserve it in my opinion, but whatever helps you sleep at night.

reply to post by BigTimeCheater


I define it as children working in china, working for not enough money to even survive so that America - china's biggest customer can maintain it's lavish lifestyle.
I define it as machines that were suppose to do the work for us but instead replaced people so people lost their jobs and were replaced.
I define it as people having to work 12 hour days just to be able to pay for there days food while the person the work for enjoys a 5 course meal and throws a party.

There is a new slavery on the block I am going to label modern slavery. We pay you because we have to but we will not pay you anything fair because we need a new holiday home.

reply to post by byteshertz


Who eats at least 60 bucks worth of food a day that they need to work 12 hours at an assumed minimum wage job?

As I stated before, your idea of slavery is a bit skewed.

Is that person who works 12 hours a day free to seek other employment? Yes.

Is anyone forcing that person to work at a job that doesnt pay them what they think they are worth? No.

Doing something you dont want to do isnt called slavery, its called being an adult and being responsible for providing for yourself.

If you think you arent getting paid what you think you should be, no one is forcing you to continue to work there.

You have other employment options. If you are unhappy with your current pay, or situation in life, whose fault is it really? Hint: Its yours. Its your fault for not obtaining more marketable skills. Its your fault for being complacent. It's your fault for not doing what was needed to improve your situation.

Who eats at least 60 bucks worth of food a day that they need to work 12 hours at an assumed minimum wage job?

Not everyone has your circumstances, some people may live in a high cost area, have children they have to feed. Have debt they have to pay from times when work wasnt around, they may be trying to pay for education to get ahead, medical treatment, funeral costs the list goes on

Doing something you dont want to do isnt called slavery, its called being an adult and being responsible for providing for yourself.

What reality do you live in? How many people do you know that work to make someone else rich because they want to?

If you think you arent getting paid what you think you should be, no one is forcing you to continue to work there.

This is not about me, I am fighting for those that do not have a choice. It is not about a job being below them it is about working so they can eat. It is called a recession and it is caused by fat cats paying themself huge sums of money for doing nothing - and then paying the government to bail them out with the peoples money.

You have other employment options. If you are unhappy with your current pay, or situation in life, whose fault is it really? Hint: Its yours. Its your fault for not obtaining more marketable skills. Its your fault for being complacent. It's your fault for not doing what was needed to improve your situation.

Hint: Not everybody grows up being able to afford education
Hint: Not every place out there has enough jobs to go around
Hint: if you read my post you would understand someone always has to be on the bottom of the pile, if we were all as educated as you and as wealthy as you how do you think you would get ahead when most people out there probably work just as hard as you

To think you are a cut above is just ignorant

reply to post by byteshertz


Time out child. I never said I was better than anyone. As you correctly stated, the word needs janitors and other no skill menial workers. Know who ends up in those jobs? People who lack the motivation to better their lives. Of course no one wants to scrub toilets for a living, but there are people out there who settle for doing that because obtaining other marketable skills would prove much to difficult for their level of motivation.

I never went to college, simply because I knew the finances weren't there.

College isnt a requirement to lead a financially healthy life.

Rough financial times are a bitch, but they are also good for innovation and ingenuity. People are looking for new and different ways to make money due to the crappy job market, and as a result, new ideas and new businesses pop up.

Providing for people is NOT a function of government.

Not everyone has your circumstances?

Really? Enlighten me as to what my circumstances are little boy.

reply to post by byteshertz


You make an interesting point. Allow me to expand on why this disparity will continue to grow.

When I was first starting out in the business there was your prototypical "friend of the boss" that did nothing all day long and made twice as much as me to boot. I should say for being young I made pretty good money, but when I heard what he was making I was astounded and agitated at the same time. Most of his day consisted of smoking cigarettes and getting off in the bathroom (I can only assume).

Point # 1. Be in the right place at the right time.

Point # 2. It's not what you know, but who you know.

Lets move forward in time. Not only was I working your normal working hours, but getting up before (and working) and then come home after business hours and work far into the night. It also helps I had no family to take care of. As the weeks progressed the "friend of the boss" continued to anger me more and more. It grew until it was almost impossible to handle..

Then, one day it happened. Just one of those days where everything goes your way in life. Decided to take my talents privately, clients lined up (magically) somehow and before the end of that work day I was running my own business (pre-filing etc.).

Point # 3. Hard work and persistence pays off. Not just work, but hard work.

The years went on and my edge in the business just seemed to keep dissipating. Somehow, I just couldn't figure it out. Maybe I was getting too old? Maybe I wasn't as sharp as I used to be? Some time later I talk to a client / friend of mine that introduces me to this "20-some" whizkid. At the time computers in the industry were rarely used as I still had to call the Prime Broker to execute transactions.

This individual at the time wrote his own software (god only knows how) and was executing transactions across major exchanges worldwide in all marketplaces when this was totally unheard of. Personally I was still using a TI calculator and a piece of paper to calculate moving averages, then had to call in orders to a broker (yes, over a telephone). Come to find out this kid was at the forefront of something later to be known as algorithmic trading.

Looking back on it all now, it really didn't matter as the stress was consuming my life so much I didn't know how to relax anymore. Multiple anxiety attacks, throat spasms (yeah, weird).. you name it, it was happening to me. But on to point number 5. The biggest piece of the puzzle.

Point # 5. ADAPT OR DIE

Technology is moving exponentially forward all the time. We don't need these manufacturing jobs anymore because this kid can program a robot to do your work. This will keep accelerating into the future -> infinity.

Point # 6. You better be highly specialized in something, or you will be in poverty for the rest of your life.

Point # 7. Money isn't everything.

Good luck on your journey. But if I could recommend something. This might sound "harsh", but the best thing you could do for yourself would be to stop complaining on the internet and advance your skills in the marketplace. If not, you have no one to blame but yourself.

Promise.

[i]Originally posted by BigTimeCheater
reply to post by byteshertz



Apologies for my moment of weakness friend. I agree with where you are coming from, but I can not see beyond the fact the rich get richer the poor get poorer and while it is all well and good to assume they need more motivation and to work hard the fact is the richer the rich get the more work is required to make that jump.
As time goes on less and less are able to make that jump until we have revolution and the system starts again. What I am trying to think of is a way to make it work when the system starts over. How would we change things?

reply to post by Dance4Life


Star for your post, while I believe this shows how to work with the system and get around its flaws instead of fixing it - it is good advice none the less to suceed, my issue is more that not all of us can succeed and as the gap between rich and poor grows less people are able to succeed because the higher the tip of the pyramid the wider the base must be.

reply to post by byteshertz


Getting government out of our daily lives would be a good start. End all welfare, both for the individual and the business. People will finally realize that government wont be helping them, therefore they would take more responsibility for themselves.

Businesses will realize that if they screw up, there wont be anyone to bail them out. Sound financial decisions are an often overlooked concept, both in business and in peoples personal lives.

Do you live in America?If so, assuming you dont live in a major metro area like NYC or Chicago, try taking a ride on public transportation some day. Count the number of Iphones and Blackberries you see. That will be a pretty good indicator of how screwed up peoples priorities are when it comes to finances.

Elitism: greed, self-righteousness, secrecy...

Help the less fortunate: the poor, the stupid, the lazy, the complainers, the jealous -- help them!!

"It's not worth my time."
"They can't be changed."
"It's not my problem!"
"I did it, why can't you!!"
"There's just too much suck in the world."
...

Everyone is not equal. Life is not fair!

Why the elitism? Are you afraid?

How did you come about these 'powers'? Were you born with them? Was it something you worked for or learned? Perhaps it was chance?

Are you not capable of helping others achieve the same thing you achieved?

Help make the world more accessible!

Reading the thread has provided some fascinating perspective on people's different situations.

Here's another 2 cents worth of my thoughts.

People have this misconception that the world owes them something other than what they've built for themselves. This is very common in today's world. People feel entitled even though they have not made the effort to move themselves forward.

Now granted sometimes people do put the effort in and are the victims of unpleasent circumstances. Unfortunetly the only answer to the problem is more hard work.

I came from nothing. I mean nothing. Gay kid growing up in the 80's in a poor neighborhood with less than stellar family members provided me with a hell of a journey to get to where I am today.

But do you know what got me here? Determination. People telling me I could not do it, or would never achieve my goals simply pushed me to work harder. So I did. These are the fruits of my labors, my difficulties, my bad decisions and my good decisions.

I can now provide a life for my children that my parents could not even dream of giving me or my siblings.

~keeper

reply to post by byteshertz


The only way to advance in life is either getting extremely lucky or hard work.

There is no middle ground. It sounds cliche, but chance also favors the prepared mind. Good fortune only has to be with you briefly to capitalize on opportunity.

reply to post by tothetenthpower


Now thats what I'm freakin talkin about.

Congrats on your past, present, and future successes.

No star or flag from me but I will interject my 2 cents as it were. The OP sounds like an angry low wage worker that is a given. I will tell you that I make quite a bit but I will not say how much. I will also tell you that you have no idea what I do with that money. For you to state that because I make a lot more money than you do that I somehow keep you down is just nonsense. I provide jobs for people like you with my income. I pay a lady to clean my house. She does about as well as you do in your job. That money comes out of my pocket. I pay a guy that cuts my lawn and he feeds his kids with that. I then also pay for plumbers, carpenters, and other skilled labor to fix my house, add additions, and make improvements to my property.

I employ people like you and they are then able to eat and feed their children, put them through school and hopefully they make more money than their parents. For you to say I do not deserve my money is also saying that all of those families that my wealth supports do not deserve the money I can afford to pay them.

You are just speaking from ignorance here my friend. You just so not understand how the economy and free enterprise works. I also pay a crap load of taxes which supports more people that do not work. Who pays for them to sit on their butts if not me and others like me.

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
Reading the thread has provided some fascinating perspective on people's different situations.

Here's another 2 cents worth of my thoughts.

People have this misconception that the world owes them something other than what they've built for themselves. This is very common in today's world. People feel entitled even though they have not made the effort to move themselves forward.

Now granted sometimes people do put the effort in and are the victims of unpleasent circumstances. Unfortunetly the only answer to the problem is more hard work.

I came from nothing. I mean nothing. Gay kid growing up in the 80's in a poor neighborhood with less than stellar family members provided me with a hell of a journey to get to where I am today.

But do you know what got me here? Determination. People telling me I could not do it, or would never achieve my goals simply pushed me to work harder. So I did. These are the fruits of my labors, my difficulties, my bad decisions and my good decisions.

I can now provide a life for my children that my parents could not even dream of giving me or my siblings.

~keeper

I hear you keeper, and respect where you are coming from - truely I do. I agree hard work and determination is the way to go. But, my issue is long term as fewer and fewer are able to suceed and more and more are on the bottom - more harder work and determination are needed than ever before for each generation. My issue is when I have kids one day what kind of work are their kids going to have to be doing just to survive. succeeding will not even be an option in the future. I understand you were able to provide this future for your children through hard work but in the future when the bar is raised and a house by todays standards is $20M how are your grandchildren going to find this money and wealth - after all already according to fhumandescent's graphs 43% of the wealth is owned by 1% of people - what happens when that is 75% ?

Why are things not like star trek? You go to school for the type of work you like and live in such environment when you graduate from school. You work your way up in ranks on the job, whatever job it may be. If you want to be a farmer, then you go to school to learn to be a farmer and then later, after you graduate, you go to a farming community to work with others in your feild of study and work your way up in ranks. You get free food,water,shelter,and raise your family there. Same would go for all fields of study. You live and work there. You work for 3 days with 6 people. Your shift works for 4 hours a day, mon-wed, with 6 people rotating every four hours. Then the next shift comes in working, thurs-sat. and sunday is off for everyone, except for the sunday crew who only work on sundays, but work longer hours a day.
If you purposely slack off,useless or due to age,slow down. You just get replaced by someone else who can do you the job. You then, would be placed either back in school to be a teacher for that profession or sent off to a home where you can be taken care of for the rest of your life. This would end the greedy peoples and give people a sense of self worth instead of self worth thru greed. End current system and replace it with a new one that works. Not one for SELF GREED.

Originally posted by byteshertz
reply to post by badgerprints

 

You are missing the point - there is 1 pie and not everybody can have some, in order for you to have some of the pie you must take it from someone else directly or indirectly

I'm sorry to disagree. I do undrestand what you are saying. I did not miss the point.

You want to claim that income, ability, effort, creativity, opportunity and the results of these things are all finite and unavailable to most because they are being "TAKEN" from you. You make this claim so that you can justify theft and "Take" from somebody else.

That is your point.


I don't have any "PIE" but I do have a few things. I have little material wealth; savings - gone in two bad financial years- a home and car - modest but being paid for. They really don't amount to a lot but I get by.

More important and infinitely more valuable than "property"is a skill set I have worked for that is marketable and other skills that I use when it is not. I have imagination, creativity, drive, a desire to learn, a need to get better every day.
None of this came from anyone else. I made them,worked and paid for them. I earned them with my own sweat, effort, intelligence, learning and experience. I didn't "take" them from anybody.

You see, to TAKE something from somebody is THEFT. I don't need to steal to be who I am.

If I had not expended a great deal of time and effort to create my own assets and abilities, I wouldn't have much. I would have less earning potential, less money, less intelligence, fewer experiences and less material goods.

Had I never expended any of this effort, none of what I have would be here.

It wouldn't be in someone elses pocket or home or bank account. No "extra pie" for someone else to enjoy.
My assets simply wouldn't exist.


Not too long ago mankind transacted with shiny beads, seashells, chickens....Rome paid centurions in salt. Apparently then the "pie" constituted things you could find, grow, catch, fabricate or extract from seawater with the sun.

Now, with all of our advances in technology, culture, travel and education, we're all eating from the same "pie"?

Wake up. Find a way to progress instead of fussing about what you arent allowed to take from someone else.
Do something besides lamenting the fact that someone else is Bogarting the baked goods.

It is this blind adherence to a "system" that has people in the mess they are in. They bought into the lies and followed the preset plan that society had for them. They ended up where society left them.

Once again,
There is no pie.
There are just a bunch of people who have bought into a lie.

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
Reading the thread has provided some fascinating perspective on people's different situations.

Here's another 2 cents worth of my thoughts.

People have this misconception that the world owes them something other than what they've built for themselves. This is very common in today's world. People feel entitled even though they have not made the effort to move themselves forward.

Now granted sometimes people do put the effort in and are the victims of unpleasent circumstances. Unfortunetly the only answer to the problem is more hard work.

I came from nothing. I mean nothing. Gay kid growing up in the 80's in a poor neighborhood with less than stellar family members provided me with a hell of a journey to get to where I am today.

But do you know what got me here? Determination. People telling me I could not do it, or would never achieve my goals simply pushed me to work harder. So I did. These are the fruits of my labors, my difficulties, my bad decisions and my good decisions.

I can now provide a life for my children that my parents could not even dream of giving me or my siblings.

~keeper

I hear you keeper, and respect where you are coming from - truely I do. I agree hard work and determination is the way to go. But, my issue is long term as fewer and fewer are able to suceed and more and more are on the bottom - more harder work and determination are needed than ever before for each generation.

I'm not going to argue that point my friend. It IS harder in today's world. Yes the system is currently unbalanced and perhaps skewered to those who already have money.

The alternative is socialism or communism. I'm a Democractic Socialist myself, I know that sounds like an oxymoron but I've enjoyed by Capitalist/Socialist country of Canada all my life, it's a good balance.

The problem here is that the definition of hard work has changed. It's no longer about how intuitive, smart or hard working you are, it's how much you are willing to sell your soul for. Whether it be in banking or customer service or really any industry.

The profit motive has created an environment of constant " one upping", where everybody is trying to get on top of everybody else by whatever means necessary. It's not the process that needs refinement, it's the people in charge.

My issue is when I have kids one day what kind of work are their kids going to have to be doing just to survive. succeeding will not even be an option in the future. I understand you were able to provide this future for your children through hard work but in the future when the bar is raised and a house by todays standards is $20M how are your grandchildren going to find this money and wealth - after all already according to fhumandescent's graphs 43% of the wealth is owned by 1% of people - what happens when that is 75% ?

In my case, I buy gold.

Lots of gold.

We have aprox. 20 bars of gold in a safety deposit box. All insured through an independant broker, not the bank I bought them from. This will keep them from trying to take it from me in the event of an economic collapse.

But my life is what it is, it probably won't change any more than it already has. All I can do is plan for my kid's future, give them a safety net or a buffer. I know that not many people have this option, but I was once in your position, thinking the exact same things.

As you get older though, perpective changes and opportunites open outside of your comfort zone. Every little change anybody has of making it, must be taken and followed to the end, whether it's good or bad.

You can't make any good decisions if you've never made bad ones to learn from.

~Keeper

reply to post by badgerprints


Well we all run off fiat currencies, back when money was based on gold it would be fair to say that there is no pie, because one could always go dig up more gold. But not that all currencies are not now based on anything but each others trade all currency and wealth is basically just a percentage of that pie, there is no way to introduce more wealth in to the system, it can only be traded as all currencies are based off a comparison of how that country is compared to others. So make no mistake about it this is a situation where there is one pie.

Originally posted by byteshertz
So make no mistake about it this is a situation where there is one pie.

Then I feel sorry for you.