Elves and dwarves - do they exist?

Originally posted by acrux
I've always wondered if the reports of elves in older times are the grays in modern times.

I tend to agree with this. I think recent history just wants to paint them more human. Even in Tolkiens books when it's describing them it gives them somewhat human characteristics but still makes it clear multiple times that their appearance is of wonder, magic and beauty but also terrifying for someone who is not used to being around them.

That doesn't sound human to me! I was a little disappointed in the movies in that respect. Even before it dawned on me the possible parallel after someone on a website mentioned it, it is clear in books that they are very different and although casting picked beautiful people... they did pick some very worldly types with very traditional human characteristics.

yes, they do. they exist in other dimensions. they come here to this one sometimes. this planet is like a dimensional spot of vacations for all sorts of beings.

Originally posted by 19872012
I know this sounds like a stupid question - but do they? Ive heard reports of skeletons of tiny adult humans being found before.

If they do, what are they? Extraterrestrials? Inter-dimensionals? Maybe a hominid that evolved in a totally different way?

Theyre spirits.

And no, theyre not 'elf' spirits, theyre EARTH spirits, which take on the symbolic form of tiny creatures, hence the wide variety - fairies, elves, trolls, dwarves, etc

Originally posted by ChaosMagician

Originally posted by acrux
I've always wondered if the reports of elves in older times are the grays in modern times.

I tend to agree with this. I think recent history just wants to paint them more human. Even in Tolkiens books when it's describing them it gives them somewhat human characteristics but still makes it clear multiple times that their appearance is of wonder, magic and beauty but also terrifying for someone who is not used to being around them.

That doesn't sound human to me! I was a little disappointed in the movies in that respect. Even before it dawned on me the possible parallel after someone on a website mentioned it, it is clear in books that they are very different and although casting picked beautiful people... they did pick some very worldly types with very traditional human characteristics.

edit on 18-11-2010 by ChaosMagician because: (no reason given)

actually I think the movies made Tolkien's Quendi (Elves) look less human than he intended. Tolkien said the Quendi had only slightly, barely noticeable points in their ears and resembled us physically in pretty much every way aside from being taller/prettier, and a bit less dense matter perhaps. They could even interbreed with us, they were genetically essentially human.

They found a small humanoid creature that they named a hobbit can't remember where though as for dwarves probably I think that they do.

We live in Candycane Village with Santa. The dwarves collect the input and we assemble toys using the input. Santa has recently announced that since many people are naughty nowadays he's thinking of closing the factory.

reply to post by 19872012


I think in The Hobbit, Tolkien says Elrond was half elf...

Elrond was Lord of Rivendell, one of the mighty rulers of old that remained in Middle-earth in its Third Age. His name means "Vault of Stars", "Star-dome", or "Elf of the Cave" (the exact meaning is uncertain, as Tolkien gave different derivations in different places).

He was the son of Eärendil and Elwing, and a great-grandson of Lúthien, born in Beleriand in the First Age, making him well over 6,000 years old by the time of the events described in The Lord of the Rings. Elrond's twin brother was Elros Tar-Minyatur, the first High King of Númenor.

Although Elrond was considered half-elven, that was not meant to be an exact percentage value; he and his brother Elros were also descended from the Maiar, angelic beings who had come to Middle-earth thousands of years before. Elrond, along with his parents, his brother, and his children, were granted a choice between Elven or human fates by the godlike Valar. Elrond chose to travel into the West and live as an immortal Elf, while his twin Elros chose mortality.

(taken from the Tolkien wiki)

Its said Tolkien got his stuff from something that happened in prehistory...again, something I read years ago...

Originally posted by 19872012

Originally posted by ChaosMagician

Originally posted by acrux
I've always wondered if the reports of elves in older times are the grays in modern times.

I tend to agree with this. I think recent history just wants to paint them more human. Even in Tolkiens books when it's describing them it gives them somewhat human characteristics but still makes it clear multiple times that their appearance is of wonder, magic and beauty but also terrifying for someone who is not used to being around them.

That doesn't sound human to me! I was a little disappointed in the movies in that respect. Even before it dawned on me the possible parallel after someone on a website mentioned it, it is clear in books that they are very different and although casting picked beautiful people... they did pick some very worldly types with very traditional human characteristics.

edit on 18-11-2010 by ChaosMagician because: (no reason given)

actually I think the movies made Tolkien's Quendi (Elves) look less human than he intended. Tolkien said the Quendi had only slightly, barely noticeable points in their ears and resembled us physically in pretty much every way aside from being taller/prettier, and a bit less dense matter perhaps. They could even interbreed with us, they were genetically essentially human.

They were also skilled in tongues... and rumor has it that if greys talk, they choose not to.
No doubt Tolkien's depiction of Elves is very human... that's why I say "Even in Tolkiens books"... because his books certainly aren't the most antique depiction of Elves though they are probably the most popularized and perhaps some of the most humanized although his attempt to account for their history and their origins is elaborate, colorful and very interesting. His description paints them as tall and like men, but still in multiple places in the books it's mentioned that they tend to terrify other races that have never seen them and only heard tales... even though they are not afraid at the sight of men. I think that is an important distinction despite all the human characteristics he adds.

Originally posted by HomerinNC
reply to post by 19872012

 

I think in The Hobbit, Tolkien says Elrond was half elf...

Elrond was Lord of Rivendell, one of the mighty rulers of old that remained in Middle-earth in its Third Age. His name means "Vault of Stars", "Star-dome", or "Elf of the Cave" (the exact meaning is uncertain, as Tolkien gave different derivations in different places).

He was the son of Eärendil and Elwing, and a great-grandson of Lúthien, born in Beleriand in the First Age, making him well over 6,000 years old by the time of the events described in The Lord of the Rings. Elrond's twin brother was Elros Tar-Minyatur, the first High King of Númenor.

Although Elrond was considered half-elven, that was not meant to be an exact percentage value; he and his brother Elros were also descended from the Maiar, angelic beings who had come to Middle-earth thousands of years before. Elrond, along with his parents, his brother, and his children, were granted a choice between Elven or human fates by the godlike Valar. Elrond chose to travel into the West and live as an immortal Elf, while his twin Elros chose mortality.

(taken from the Tolkien wiki)

Its said Tolkien got his stuff from something that happened in prehistory...again, something I read years ago...

edit on 11/21/2010 by HomerinNC because: (no reason given)

The Eldar... I think one of the first names given to them means "people of the stars"
Iluvatar, father of all, made them and awoke them in Cuivienen by the water under the stars and this is the first thing they saw when they opened their eyes.
Elbereth, or Varda Elentari...as in Elbereth Gilthoniel (the prayer or song that was said as the fellowship of the ring departed before they felt lost in the woods before they were found by Galadriel) is who the prayer is sung for because she made the stars and she helped make the Elves and her name means Star Queen. El-ves... EL=star.

I'm sure you probably know this... just adding some points.

Originally posted by ChaosMagician

Originally posted by 19872012

Originally posted by ChaosMagician

Originally posted by acrux
I've always wondered if the reports of elves in older times are the grays in modern times.

I tend to agree with this. I think recent history just wants to paint them more human. Even in Tolkiens books when it's describing them it gives them somewhat human characteristics but still makes it clear multiple times that their appearance is of wonder, magic and beauty but also terrifying for someone who is not used to being around them.

That doesn't sound human to me! I was a little disappointed in the movies in that respect. Even before it dawned on me the possible parallel after someone on a website mentioned it, it is clear in books that they are very different and although casting picked beautiful people... they did pick some very worldly types with very traditional human characteristics.

edit on 18-11-2010 by ChaosMagician because: (no reason given)

actually I think the movies made Tolkien's Quendi (Elves) look less human than he intended. Tolkien said the Quendi had only slightly, barely noticeable points in their ears and resembled us physically in pretty much every way aside from being taller/prettier, and a bit less dense matter perhaps. They could even interbreed with us, they were genetically essentially human.

They were also skilled in tongues... and rumor has it that if greys talk, they choose not to.
No doubt Tolkien's depiction of Elves is very human... that's why I say "Even in Tolkiens books"... because his books certainly aren't the most antique depiction of Elves though they are probably the most popularized and perhaps some of the most humanized although his attempt to account for their history and their origins is elaborate, colorful and very interesting. His description paints them as tall and like men, but still in multiple places in the books it's mentioned that they tend to terrify other races that have never seen them and only heard tales... even though they are not afraid at the sight of men. I think that is an important distinction despite all the human characteristics he adds.

you have a point. like they're so beautiful they're terrifying ... though with Greys, it is just the opposite lol.

Originally posted by 19872012

Originally posted by ChaosMagician

Originally posted by 19872012

Originally posted by ChaosMagician

Originally posted by acrux
I've always wondered if the reports of elves in older times are the grays in modern times.

I tend to agree with this. I think recent history just wants to paint them more human. Even in Tolkiens books when it's describing them it gives them somewhat human characteristics but still makes it clear multiple times that their appearance is of wonder, magic and beauty but also terrifying for someone who is not used to being around them.

That doesn't sound human to me! I was a little disappointed in the movies in that respect. Even before it dawned on me the possible parallel after someone on a website mentioned it, it is clear in books that they are very different and although casting picked beautiful people... they did pick some very worldly types with very traditional human characteristics.

edit on 18-11-2010 by ChaosMagician because: (no reason given)

actually I think the movies made Tolkien's Quendi (Elves) look less human than he intended. Tolkien said the Quendi had only slightly, barely noticeable points in their ears and resembled us physically in pretty much every way aside from being taller/prettier, and a bit less dense matter perhaps. They could even interbreed with us, they were genetically essentially human.

They were also skilled in tongues... and rumor has it that if greys talk, they choose not to.
No doubt Tolkien's depiction of Elves is very human... that's why I say "Even in Tolkiens books"... because his books certainly aren't the most antique depiction of Elves though they are probably the most popularized and perhaps some of the most humanized although his attempt to account for their history and their origins is elaborate, colorful and very interesting. His description paints them as tall and like men, but still in multiple places in the books it's mentioned that they tend to terrify other races that have never seen them and only heard tales... even though they are not afraid at the sight of men. I think that is an important distinction despite all the human characteristics he adds.

you have a point. like they're so beautiful they're terrifying ... though with Greys, it is just the opposite lol.

ah, but how can you be so certain? what exactly do you think a grey looks like... because I have seen what seem to me like really bad representations of them and then some that were much more appealing.

Regardless, I do tend to think they can give some pretty evil looks... like sometimes cute, sometimes terrifyingly evil... not to mention the vibes they can give. I bet they can give some really dirty looks when they are pissed.

I saw one but it was dim light and at first he was sort of looking away from me.. I did see him though and he seemed to be an older one.. then there was a flash and all I could see were his huge eyes.

I wouldn't want to have one really pissed off at me, that's for sure but can't help the fascination. It's almost like you can see something in their eyes like the terror of space and all it's dynamics... or could also see possibility and wonder.

From what I see in the human racial unconscious (the hows and such I explain in my own threads if you want to know the specifics), the E-l*th aka the elves (we can't pronounce their name very well) are quite real. In fact, what I see is that they were the ones who terra-formed this planet, part of which involved sending that astroid smashing into the earth to get rid of the dinosaurs.

But they aren't short. From what I can see, they are usually quite tall (7' or so) and willowy. What I've heard people describe as the 'nordics' fits the elven folk pretty well. The high elves were more the blonde and red-heads with the blue and green eyes. The lesser elves were usually light to dark brown hair with blue eyes. And they were the 'gods' of Greece, Rome, Scandinavia, and so on, until around the switch from B.C. to A.D. Most of them left earth at that time---the rescue ship finally arrived. But since then, the ones who stayed behind have run under the guise of the angels.. high elves are the 'arch angels', the lesser elves the regular 'angels'.

The dwarf folk worked for the Elves as miners even as the LOTR series portrayed them.. so much of what we consider 'mythology' is really the way we remember the true history of the world via what is stored in the racial unconscious, so it comes out like 'imagination' because most of us don't realize that the connection to the racial unconscious is thru our right brain where the imagination also resides, for the most part.

What I haven't really seen in the racial unconscious though, is the hobbit type species. There are a lot of other alien species around but nothing that really fits the hobbit genotype as portrayed in the LOTR, so perhaps that was the fiction in the LOTR.

And the greys are an entirely different species. They came here to earth to try to solve their going extinct problem and the elves allowed them space down in the northern Africa area, because they don't really like that kind of heat. The greys are actually the ones who brought humanity into sentience as they stored their people's spirits in human bodies until they could figure out how to get those spirits back into grey bodies. It had become a real problem--a lot of the grey worker spirits wouldn't reincarnate into grey bodies... and worse, the living grey workers were starting to just lay down and not move to eat or drink or anything until they died. It had the grey leadership quite worried.

and what specifically was this going extinct problem?

Originally posted by ChaosMagician
and what specifically was this going extinct problem?

Quoting my previous post... "The greys are actually the ones who brought humanity into sentience as they stored their people's spirits in human bodies until they could figure out how to get those spirits back into grey bodies. It had become a real problem--a lot of the grey worker spirits wouldn't reincarnate into grey bodies... and worse, the living grey workers were starting to just lay down and not move to eat or drink or anything until they died. It had the grey leadership quite worried." aka, the worker greys weren't reincarnating and there weren't enough of them to do the job anymore.

Tolkien's elves and dwarves are based on their counterparts in Norse mythology, which are somewhat similar, but he made changes to suit his own mythology he was building. Norse elves are often depicted as somewhat more radiant than Tolkien's, though at times Tolkien's elves are much like that. When we see Galadrial in all her glory, or read the descriptions of some of the greatest of the first generation of elves like Feanor and his brothers, they somewhat more approach the near angelic qualities of Norse elves.

Dwarves in Tolkien are more human-like than in Norse mythology, where they are really much more beings of the earth who have some of the qualities of his trolls and goblins (though they are still noble creatures and not twisted and evil). They are often called dark elves in these stories, too. They live their whole lives underground as in some stories it's said that if they see the light of day they will turn to stone, much like the trolls in The Hobbit.

In many Norse countries, especially Iceland, a great many people still believe in these beings. IIRC, a poll was taken in Iceland and a pretty substantial number of the people there believed in them and a great, great many of those who did have claimed to have seen them, usually small, gnome-like beings. Belief in these beings in these places is very real, to them there is no question that they exist and for them the proof is in what they've seen (or believe they've seen). Here's a video on the subject.

Originally posted by DragonriderGal

Originally posted by ChaosMagician
and what specifically was this going extinct problem?

Quoting my previous post... "The greys are actually the ones who brought humanity into sentience as they stored their people's spirits in human bodies until they could figure out how to get those spirits back into grey bodies. It had become a real problem--a lot of the grey worker spirits wouldn't reincarnate into grey bodies... and worse, the living grey workers were starting to just lay down and not move to eat or drink or anything until they died. It had the grey leadership quite worried." aka, the worker greys weren't reincarnating and there weren't enough of them to do the job anymore.

If they weren't reincarnating, it's because their souls weren't wanting to... if they were laying down and dying. That means their souls have gone off somewhere not wanting to go into bodies or into another life form body.

When you have a baby, do you first go out and hunt down a human soul that is willing to go back into a human body... no, you just have a baby. This is still not explaining to me why they are not able to have children that will just naturally have a soul if it is a living being that is perhaps even a new soul. This idea is putting the cart before the horse.

If a species has a "going extinct" problem... it is generally a physical dilemma... not one of not being able to stick an old soul back into a new body that has made another choice.

Now... having said that. let's say there is, on earth, one grey left... and if that grey doesn't find a way to procreate... his line will be lost and let's even say that this grey is able to clone... let's say, another dead grey, but he can't find a soul that will naturally go into that body. Hell, let's even say that he knows of a once grey soul that is now in human form and has even entertained the idea of trying to get that soul back into that lifeless grey body that he has cloned in order to preserve what his kind has to offer the world and so that he is not the only one left of his kind... now THAT is a spiritual "going extinct" dilemma.... but it's a dilemma that creates even more dilemmas. Who knows? perhaps it's possible, perhaps it could even be beneficial to make such an effort to try and preserve a species against all odds... but which is it that you are trying to describe? A projection of a different kind of problem concerning spiritual choice?... or a physical procreation issue. if it is a matter of a whole multitude of greys and not just a handful... trying to figure out how to stick souls into bodies, why they don't just try procreating the old fashioned way and seeing if the universe will supply them with some enthusiastic spiritual essences?

Sometimes I just get the feeling that things are just a little more complicated than they should be... or for some reason sound that way.

Originally posted by ChaosMagician

Originally posted by DragonriderGal

Originally posted by ChaosMagician
and what specifically was this going extinct problem?

Quoting my previous post... "The greys are actually the ones who brought humanity into sentience as they stored their people's spirits in human bodies until they could figure out how to get those spirits back into grey bodies. It had become a real problem--a lot of the grey worker spirits wouldn't reincarnate into grey bodies... and worse, the living grey workers were starting to just lay down and not move to eat or drink or anything until they died. It had the grey leadership quite worried." aka, the worker greys weren't reincarnating and there weren't enough of them to do the job anymore.

If they weren't reincarnating, it's because their souls weren't wanting to... if they were laying down and dying. That means their souls have gone off somewhere not wanting to go into bodies or into another life form body.

When you have a baby, do you first go out and hunt down a human soul that is willing to go back into a human body... no, you just have a baby. This is still not explaining to me why they are not able to have children that will just naturally have a soul if it is a living being that is perhaps even a new soul. This idea is putting the cart before the horse.

If a species has a "going extinct" problem... it is generally a physical dilemma... not one of not being able to stick an old soul back into a new body that has made another choice.

Now... having said that. let's say there is, on earth, one grey left... and if that grey doesn't find a way to procreate... his line will be lost and let's even say that this grey is able to clone... let's say, another dead grey, but he can't find a soul that will naturally go into that body. Hell, let's even say that he knows of a once grey soul that is now in human form and has even entertained the idea of trying to get that soul back into that lifeless grey body that he has cloned in order to preserve what his kind has to offer the world and so that he is not the only one left of his kind... now THAT is a spiritual "going extinct" dilemma.... but it's a dilemma that creates even more dilemmas. Who knows? perhaps it's possible, perhaps it could even be beneficial to make such an effort to try and preserve a species against all odds... but which is it that you are trying to describe? A projection of a different kind of problem concerning spiritual choice?... or a physical procreation issue. if it is a matter of a whole multitude of greys and not just a handful... trying to figure out how to stick souls into bodies, why they don't just try procreating the old fashioned way and seeing if the universe will supply them with some enthusiastic spiritual essences?

Sometimes I just get the feeling that things are just a little more complicated than they should be... or for some reason sound that way.

edit on 24-11-2010 by ChaosMagician because: (no reason given)

It isn't that easy for most species. They have the choice. The body is created and the spirits wander over and climb in or not. But the greys amped up the human body's ability to capture spirits whether they wanted to incarnate or not, because they wanted to at least get some work out of their little grey worker spirits while they figured out a way to make the grey spirits go back into their grey bodies voluntarily. Otherwise the little spirits just stayed stuck to the sides of the 'bliss' state that passes for sleep with the greys.

A human body needing a spirit is rather like that scene in that Angelina Jolie movie where she slides the car sideways with the door open, knocks the guy into the car, and off they go. Or like standing in front of a strong jet engine... one minute there you are, minding your own business, and the next, you're being sucked thru the air and pulled into something you can't ever get out of.

And that is why we have soo many different spirit origins in our racial unconscious; they kinda got kidnapped by their bodies.. and once they became human, they couldn't remember that they weren't human (although many people do feel that they really don't belong here because of that hijacking) and so continue to reincarnate as a human, although it is difficult not to reincarnate as a human, if you are around humans, cuz of that soul capturing quality. The greys tried amping up some of their own bodies first, but when they started pulling in alien spirits, they canned that idea because they really couldn't tolerate the alien spirits in their hive mind, so they had to find an external source for the storage aka humanity.

You're right though, the worker greys didn't want to reincarnate as greys, because, as far as I can see, life as a worker grey totally sucked. No fun, no play, no entertainment, no music, no art, nothing but work, sleep, eat this goop stuff and do it again.

I would suggest that long ago when people believed in elves and such, they did not know of things such as dwarfism, for example....

And that perhaps those skeletons found are those of dwarfs...Or little people... Which ever.

This planet is predominated by procreation of the human species. To me, that would be the reason that grey soul were born into human bodies if that is in fact, the case. Why would it make sense to come here to solve an extinction problem knowing that when your people die, they will likely wind up in one of the many human bodies being born when it is time to reincarnate? Unless they wanted integration of their species with ours, then why attempt to take care of their procreation problem on *this* planet. That's like having a slight ant problem in your house so to take care of it, you move out next to the ant hive.

If they wanted to continue their line, it seems they would be on their own planet procreating like crazy, because it seems to me that the souls who died there would be reborn there naturally and new souls, not alien souls might also be brought into the collective consciousness of their planet... unless the problem is that they have no natural planet left to call home anymore.

Still I think it necessitates a lot more backing up to claim that their offspring are born without a soul naturally, be it a grey soul or an entirely new soul...if they just create the physical offspring first. It seem to keep a soul OUT of a body in order to, let's say.. reincarnate back into a cloned body- THAT is where the work would be, in keeping unwanted souls out. And if the old souls don't want to go back into the grey bodies, how do they intend to keep them there? They will just die all over again if they didn't want to be there so what would the point be?

I can think of a lot of creative ways to imagine all sorts of dilemmas that would drive a person to clone bodies or preserve their species or study spiritual direction deeply and thoroughly but if a soul doesn't want to be in a body and has made this obvious, what's the point in trying to keep it there? What's the point in even considering that as a dilemma that can be "worked out" If they wanted to FORCE this type of thing, they would probably have to remove every other option for a reincarnating soul such as annihilating every other species as an option and so far, there is no evidence of that. It would be one thing if a grey reincarnated into a human body because that was all that was available at the time or if they felt there was reason to live inside that new body for that lifetime, but if it's because it doesn't want to go- it doesn't want to go and will probably just die all over again.

I give more credit to the grey intellect than this. it would make more sense to claim that their souls were stolen by malevolent races and when they went through the birth process, they probably wouldn't recall what they were to begin with... and if they learned, maybe they would want to go back, maybe they wouldn't... but to present the problem in the way of *their souls departed because they didn't want to be there anymore* ... how are you going to fix that? Why would a smart species that knew of the choice made by the soul even try?
It seems to me that an extinction problem would present itself with some totally different *primary* complications and circumstance... like most of them were killed, they now live on a new planet, another type vessel pulls onto the essences naturally because it predominates that planets energy... not as a matter of choice but as a matter of circumstance.

I'd like to know where you are getting this information from, if you don't mind.

In addition to what Nightchild said....

Irish legend holds that when the angels fell from heaven, the really bad ones fell into the sea. Those who were "not as evil, but merely mischievous" fell onto the land and became trolls and fairies.

Perhaps the god EL comes from ELves?