Raising children devoid of religious dogma

Originally posted by sykickvision
I was born into a Baptist home. We went to church every Sunday and I actively participated in church activity of one sort of the other until I was in my early twenties. I became sick of the dogma & church politics & theology overall. My wife was raised Catholic until around age 10/12...then from then on pretty much agnostic/atheist.

We have two children now, ages 7 and 5. They like to ask questions, and we always answer as truthfully as we can with the knowledge we have regarding the subject.

They have asked "Who/What is god?" - and we tell them that some people believe there is an invisible person that lives in the sky that created everything.
They ask "Where did frogs come from?" - we tell them that at one time there weren't any frogs, there were just little specks of things in the water that were like tiny animals and over long periods of time they changed and kept changing and some things became frogs, some became bugs, some became turtles...(not EXACTLY a perfect description, but it sufficed)
THEN they asked "What happens when you die" - we told them that your body stops working, and over time it turns back into the stuff that it's made of. Some of it goes into the water and feeds plants, some might get eaten by a bug, that will get eaten by a frog, that will get eaten by a snake, that will get eaten by a bird....
Now...the funny thing about this, to me, is that they seem to be fine with that. It didn't seem as if non-existence bothered them in the least bit. There was no fear, not even the slightest twitch of the neck, eye, or jaw that would indicate any uncomfortable feeling. They didn't ask "Well where do WE go?", they didn't say "What will we do when we're dead"...it apparently didn't leave any nagging thoughts behind - they haven't asked about it since. They understand death, they've had pets die - they've seen death - never human though, but death is death. When you look deeper - death isn't what it seems. It's simply a transformation of matter that has already been in existence for a very long time. It never stops moving, and it never stops changing - some changes happen in milliseconds, some take thousands or millions of years but the point is that it is a fluid action.
I'm wondering as I watch them wonder, if I'm not catching some glimpse of some secret that we've long forgotten and pressed into the back of our minds as we've slowly allowed the dogmas and teachings of others that would have us do their bidding were grafted into our thoughts until we believed it to be true. Have our minds been hammered and forged since birth by religious/spiritual dogma for so long that we've forgotten the entire essence of our nature? They know to be safe, and be careful - but that death does come to one and all. My adult mind is still confounded that they were totally at peace with it. And here I am, as time permits, watching battles between members on death and religion and science and evolution over and over and over - and I'm thinking about everything that I'm reading...but as I do, I'm also thinking about whatever was going on in the minds of those two little boys when they asked that one question...and they didn't hear anything regarding an immortal soul or an eternity in paradise or hell - I'm wondering exactly what that was in their minds, when they heard the truth, made them feel at peace with it.

Now you can say what you want - you can say it's childish innocence and they don't understand the permanence of physical death - but they do.

I like your ideas about educating your kids. Mine are grown and gone now. I would suggest that, at some appropriate time, you begin informing them about the world's religions beginning with an explanation of why there are religions. Teach them about dogma objectively. What it is and how it is used for good or ill.

And, if you agree, much later, why not consider my personal inclination to believe in God externally of any religion. Go to God directly. Doing this I have found that it is very easy to understand the role of human beings in religion; since we are imperfect so are all religions. This has provided me a unique window to truth which nullifies the usual scriptural arguments such as "evolution vs creation".

reply to post by sykickvision


This thread really kind of jumped out at me. I was raised in the bible belt, but my parents never went to church. So no one ever made me go to church at a young age unless I wanted to, and I thank God so much for that. I would go to a church every now and then with my friends but I can honestly say I just hated it. Something just wasnt right.

I never really thought about death that much as a kid, but the older I got you couldnt get away from it. When my friends sister died in a house fire was the first time I really even thought about it. All the sudden death seemed so dark and lonely. I can remember people saying they hoped she was right with God, or else she would be in hell. How horrible! I look back on it now and I cannot believe it.

I got a little older and decided all religions were just bs and that God did not exist. Little did I know I was only half right! I wont talk about the turn of events that made me realize that I was wrong, but I am so thankful because my life is so exciting now. I know we all have a purpose here and that death is just as you say, an illusion.

That being said, I believe in raising a child with an open mind. Dont brainwash your child with your beliefs and dont let anyone else either. You can still have morals without church, and to be honest half the people at the pulpits are corrupt anyway.

I raised my child without religious dogma, however, after teaching her how to apply logic, reason, and intellect, I have allowed her to freely explore all spiritual beliefs however she sees fit; from Catholicism and Non-Denominational Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, and even more obscure ones like Neo-Platonism, Hermetics, and Wicca.

At 13 she has learned to be respectful of all spiritualities and religions, although she's somewhat partial to the religions of Ancient Kemet (Egypt) and Ancient Greece. Occasionally I'll catch her making offerings to Selene, Artemis, or to Isis (her name-sake). I have often asked her if she believes these goddesses to be real and she laughs and replies "Not like that! They aren't real like people, but are aspects of me on the inside!"

So, she has basically become an Atheistic Secular Humanist with a healthy respect for spirituality, even though she has, in her own way found a way to reconcile the two.

The thing that makes me smile the most is that she has strong moral convictions, steeped in unapologetic idealism. She regards her personal integrity above all other things other than the life and well-being of others, and would never consider putting any of it in jeopardy through either action or inaction. We both find it humorous when people comment about how perfect of a "Christian" daughter I have raised; as if morality, manners, integrity, and a respect for all people and all things, are somehow part and parcel with a religion.

However, I must confess that I have continued the Santa and Tooth Fairy charade, which she still believes in at age 13! (However, we dismissed the Easter Bunny, having an alternate mythology that about "Ether-Bunnies"...with big sharp teeth...modeled after the Killer Rabbit of Caerbannog that explains the rituals commonly practiced on Easter.) I feel pangs of guilt, on occasion, perpetuating a belief in a myth (especially when she gets laughed at by her peers for still asserting the existence of them both), but it not only brings her much joy but I feel it provides a valuable experiential life-lesson that could not be conveyed through words. Once she decides for herself that they are not real, we will have a long discussion about the value of Myth and the importance of incredulity.

However, I think that is possible to raise a child devoid of religious dogma without throwing out the proverbial baby with the bathwater. It is possible to raise a child with a respect for other beliefs through understanding of the monomyth, comparative mythology and comparative religion, and recognizing these as part of the human condition, being archetypes of the collective unconscious...without it turning into a Secular vs. Religious demarcation.

To me the idea of believing in a god, or worshiping a god is a moot point. What is it that this god is doing for me? People have told me that "The lord woke me up this morning"...to which I ask, how many people were there that didn't make it through the night? Does that mean that he has withdrawn his favor from them, or was it merely "their time to go"?
"Lord, bless the food on this table, thank you for your provisions" - seriously. What did god have to do with your food getting there? The vegetables were grown by nutrients in the soil, and fed by sunlight. The "meat" on your table most likely ate the grass, before meeting it's demise to the call of your dinner bell. Was it god that purchased the food? Was it god that prepared it? Was it god that served it? Will god do the dishes afterward?
The atheists thank no one for their food, yet they dine as well as everyone else.
We could thank god for our health, but the hospitals are full of people that love god also. We could thank god that we have breath in our lungs and a beating heart - but that one day too will pass. Of course I'm speaking of the christian god, which may be a bit biased in the light of realization that 'god' has many different meanings to various people. To some, it's an imaginary higher being with all the qualities that we wish we were composed of, that we strive to attain, that we continually compare ourselves against.
For others it's an iron fisted ruler, demanding unfaltering adoration.
I was in a sunday school class once, where a pre-teen asked a question of a teacher "What will you do when you get to heaven" - to which the answer was given "I will praise jesus 24/7 on my knees" to which I thought....why would ANYONE want to spend an eternity doing that? I'm under the assumption that one will be inundated with immense feelings to where this type of reaction would be almost automatic.
The flip side of that coin is to spend an eternity in a lake of fire, which I never really understood how fire would burn a soul or spirit since it is a totally physical reaction or even how it would be justified to burn a person eternally for a few years of sin.

I have complete faith in myself. I know myself. I know what I'm capable of accomplishing, and periodically I try new tasks. Some I succeed in, others I fail in. I do not despair. I thank my hard work for providing for my family, I thank my knowledge for providing a service that I can market. I thank my wife for providing nutritious meals. I thank my disinclination of licking doorknobs and inclinations of hand-washing (among other things) for my health. It's true - I am getting older. Also true, one day I WILL die. Shortly thereafter, but before the memory of me is forgotten, everything that composed me will return to it's natural state. I do not expect to meet god, but if I do, I would expect that he would be nothing like he has been portrayed, and if he had any sense of self-pride, he would be royally pissed that he'd been misrepresented.

I believe that if you want to find god - all you have to do is go outside, and LOOK around you. Look at the grass, the trees, the insects, the birds, the clouds in the sky. LOOK, and understand what they all mean. They are all connected. THIS is what god created - this is HIS work - THIS is what he is really all about. Everything that you can see is made of exactly the same stuff. It was all created billions of years ago from exploding stars, gravitational pulls, intense heat, electromagnetic fields and myriads of other factors. IF there IS a god, THIS is how he does business. He requires absolutely NOTHING from any other living creature, other than for it to do as it does. We are not a creation IN the universe, we ARE the universe..in the flesh - reflecting upon itself. I find the fact of this almost incomprehensible and every single time I think of it....it STILL leaves me in awe.

I try to make a point of never arguing my beliefs with others. I regret if anything I've posted has indicated otherwise. My beliefs are as personal to me as my favorite color. If you don't like the color blue, why should I try to force you otherwise?

reply to post by fraterormus


That is most hilarious regarding the "Ether-bunny".

Just a few minutes ago, my five year old approached me so I decided a little bit of learning was in order.
I had my microscope handy so we examined the roots of some obscure weed growing in the yard. I explained to him the basics of the function of the root system and how plants use sunlight to produce food.

He didn't believe me.

Originally posted by sykickvision
We encourage our children to express themselves, and to seek things out for themselves.

Great. I applaud you for that.

Personally, I find it hard to believe that when someone knows and has more of an understanding of the universe than what is commonplace, I would think that religion would be the last place they would find any sort of refuge and comfort.

You aren't the first. Although replace "religion" with "god" (they are not synonymous) and it may make a little bit more sense.

Who am I to say how he lives his life, after my job as a parent is done?

Ah, the gift of consciousness. How old are they again? I was 6 when I made my breakthrough.

Although it's highly unlikely it would come to either of them suddenly professing an undying dedication to any god, the possibility can't entirely be ruled out.

You'd be surprised. I saw my first concert when I was 4. KISS. I smoked pot with both parents, in my teens.
This is not conducive to someone finding God, but remember what I said about 180s?

I suspect that the blend of my over-analytical mind and their mother's staggering IQ, that in whatever paths they choose to take they will ask and inquire many question, leaving very few stones unturned.

Exactly, you got a brain, use it.

I would hope that they wouldn't cast truth aside to be led astray by what I believe to be a fantasy, but the more I think about it now, and how we all have our personal struggle to find truth and meaning in life...I think I would be more disappointed in them NOT giving religion a try than if they never did.

Maybe its not about religion, but more of an understanding of the current condition of human reasoning
The Last Philosophy.

I was raised without a religious dogma. My parents decieded not to do it since the very day they denied to get me baptised. My mom had peregrinated among almost every church on her life, and she wanted me to do the same, to found a religion that resonated with me when I was older. She is now catholic, she was raised atheist (my family is socialist, they deny God as commies do), she was also evangelic, adventist, into hinduism, etc.

I didn't followed her path, and now I'm just a fervient believer but I don't follow any church, No one of them resonates completely on me. However, I love some of the concepts of hinduism and chinese religions.

I did believe in Santa, Easter Bunny and the toothfairy, and that made my childhood more funny. I don't think that would be harmful in any way. I think I'll teach my kids that's not bad to believe in things that doesn't "exist" for normal people, something like that...

I admire how you are raising your kids. I had intended to do the same, but somehow it just seemed easier to talk of heaven when their Papa died, and when my youngest was having severe anxiety about death.
I still tell her there is heaven if she asks, but my oldest is in the know about my beliefs and has formed similar ones of her own, as she is at peace with that. We stopped attending Christian church but still celebrate the holidays for tradition's sake. These things are so hard to do away with! We attend a UU church now and then and my oldest in particular (age 9) seems to really benefit from the music and the moments of silence and the hand-holding. I like that they learn a little background about different belief systems in Religious Education there. My 9 year old comes home and tells me that some of the kids whose parents are very religious are the same kids who were bullying other children physically and verbally on the bus the other day. So some very important messages in those kids' religious upbringings aren't registering with them.

Well my son is only about to be four, so he hasnt quite asked those questions yet. But I think the answer you gave your children is perfect. Leave it up to them to decide and learn. My grandma pushed her beliefs on me my whole life and I hated it. She's a hardcore Christian and never fails to call me to tell me im going to end up in hell if I dont go to church. What kind of person would want there children or family member to live a life of fear like that? Like is meant to be free.

I don't have children, but if I did I would try my best to leave it up to them to determine and evaluate and not bias them one way or another. I would however be willing to tell them that all life is a miracle and that they are miracles. As to the how and why of it all no one knows for certain, but modern science is making some strides, and as it turns out, what we think of as reality and life and death is starting to look ever more mysterious. So I would leave them with a sense of mystery about it if I could, without using them and their impressionable minds to indoctrinate them into any sort of dogma, either way, whether for, or against, the idea of a "creator God" and of having an imperishable soul. Forgive me, as this isn't directed at anyone in particular, but there can be a very contempuous bias by people who assume what the "religious" actually believe &/or who think they already KNOW just how the world is and how it REALLY works ie: a materialist monistic viewpoint (wherein matter alone, is primary). So I would not bias them but encourage them to investigate for themselves, and discover for themselves and try to discern accurately just what the heck is going on, and I might read to them and try to explain the findings of modern science, as it relates to the immense beauty and power of our freedom, including our freedom to explore and discover for ourselves, in some cases things we could not possibly have imagined prior to our investigation.

"There is a principal which serves as a bar against all information and proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man (or woman), or child, in everlasting ignorance. That principal is contempt, prior to investigation."
~ Herbert Spencer

So if in the end i left them with inquiring minds, and opened up for them some new possibilities, which do not by neccessity preclude any particular viewpoint, including the religious one (the word "religion" actually means "to rejoin"), and I was able to do that successfully without biasing them one way or another, leaving it up to them alone to choose, then I would sit back again in my "parental chair", proud of myself and how I'd handled such a difficult issue and delicate task.

["the word "religion" actually means "to rejoin"]

I think you may appreciate these

Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble-James1.26

And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves. And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth. Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them..-Revelation11.8

reply to post by Rustami


I'm not sure how helpful it is to be quoting scriptures in this particular thread, but if so, this would be my personal fav

A New Heaven and a New Earth

1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”
5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8

But going on like that, quoting scriptures I doubt very much will win any "converts" to the faith, so please consider beforehand what is helpful, and what isn't.

And just for the record, I have a really hard time with fundamentalist literalists and don't have time for "dogma" either, of any kind. All I ever ask for is an open mind free from contemptuous bias prior to investigation.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


in this age of extreme amounts of dogmatic dis-information from the self glorifying self righteous schemers and liars? I reason words of the Truth from the direct source anyone who has a sincere effort in their research would appreciate not to mention that those mens lives and their families were given for this very reason which is why it is said no other foundation than the Apostles with the chief stone Christ of the New Jerusalem in that passage you like the most, even the very Name Jesus comes from these, so what exactly is this fictitous entity "fundamentalist" bologne you have thrown me way? I know I heard His voice and I know these scriptures- is there something else you think I should be using that confirm or compliment as directly?

Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.-Revelation12

He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God-19

these are the scriptures which testify of Me.-John5

Jesus said to him, “It is written-Matthew4

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.-Hosea4

For this is My blood of the NEW covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.-Matthew26

Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.-1Corinthians10

For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father’s, and of the holy angels.-Luke9

Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.-Luke21

the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God-Ephisians6

The seed is the word of God-Luke8

He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory-John7

do we all know Him yet?

reply to post by Rustami

I'm sorry I apologize, it's not you, just the strategy. I wish to open minds and hearts, and those tend to close up when the Bible is thrust into their faces. It's just a different style and approach I guess. I just don't want to lose anyone who may be re-considering and thinking again, seeing again, hearing again, as if for the first time. it is painful enough to endure all the assumptions of the unbeliever and the atheist, let alone having us who believe fighting amongst one another, so again, I'm sorry. It's not you or your testimony, nor the references, just the approach, the methodology employed, which evokes for some what might be called "Churchianity". To know him is to love him and to love him is to know him and his spirit of love. IMHO, it can only be presented as an invitation, or there's no love in it at all, since love to be love must be free. And I cannot say you MUST love him, without explaining who and what he is and what he represents, and how this may be connected to us and the world around us in some sort of newfound relativity of human being. People need to have the opportunity to re-discover it through an open minded investigative process, not TOLD what they must believe, and that's my problem with many Christians, who may completely lack the capacity to see things from the perspective of the other, some of whom may hold to a very hard and rather impenetrable position which would assume to already know in advance what is real and true and what is not ie: it's all HOGWASH, nothing but "man made fairy tales born of a fear of death" or, just a morality play used as a point of leverage by which to control the masses, etc etc..
To use a boxing analogy the approach of many Christians may be called "leading with the chin"..

reply to post by NewAgeMan


alright I understand but already from just what you said all sorts of scripts are popping up that I think are beneficial or can refine what you are seeing, truth sets free right? I did'nt go to a church I heard in my living room one night, matter of fact the harshest things I have endured have come from the personal tongues and literal actions of those claiming to know or love him

Love rejoices in the truth-1Corinthians13

Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.-John17

born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever-1Peter1

receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.-James1

Nineveh? Jesus/Apostles were very direct in advance discerning the times by approximately 30 years and many were saved by their very words, are these dangerous and uncertain times ww? many also ww are starving right now I highly suspect just over the words old and new(not just on bread alone)? did you notice how His enemies reacted? when one realizes the freedom from fear of death and the law He came for it becomes very apparent why they are enemies, and also why there are false or assumed stereotypes-

Leave this way, get off this path, and stop confronting us with the Holy One of Israel!-Isaiah30

And they called them, and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus.-Acts4

For I am full of pent-up words,
and the spirit within me urges me on.
I am like a cask of wine without a vent,
like a new wineskin ready to burst!
I must speak to find relief,
so I'll give my answers.-Job32

suppose it helps if you know I don't like typing either (lol)