Children should be protected from bigoted Christian foster parents

Originally posted by ra.ra3
Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Leviticus 20 deals out death sentences left, right and centre.

It got me thinking...who is to carry out the sentences? - The government, a mob, God himself?

As a Christian, I also naturally wondered what Christ would have said regarding these death penalties. Then it dawned on me that he actually did have something to say:

In John 8, some Pharisees came to Jesus with a woman who was caught in adultery. (If you recall in Leviticus 20:10, just three verses before the homosexual sex death penalty, a death penalty for adultery is also specified). The Pharisees thought to catch Jesus out by asking what should be done with her, and he said:

"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."

Originally posted by The Djin
reply to post by the siren

 

Thank you, I was pretty sure it was in Leviticus, but I thought it was Leviticus 18 where it says they should be cut off from society. I do intend to go and study it - that's why I asked for the verse. Imagine that.

In response to your replies to me it would only be fair on you if I quote the above and point out what the other posters have written which would be not dissimilar to may own reply so I would thank them for this.

Clearly you need to study the bibles and when we say study that means "critically" with reason and intelligence .It is all well and good reading bibles and cherry picking for the good bits that superficially would seem to back up you argument, but inevitably you Will end up in the place that most christians that use critical thinking end up, which is "It is all a matter of faith.


It is preposterous to make wild claims like "the passage being read out of context" as you will immediately be required to point to the authority on biblical context and as we all know including my hamster there is none as the authors of the books contained in the bibles are "Unknown".


Many xtians including yourself perform wondrous cranial gymnastics trying to distance themselves from the complete psychotic barbarity and instructions of the god yawhe.

Unfortunately for you , you chose to do this on ATS of all places where you will really have your work cut out I'm afraid as very often (but not always) many atheists have spent more time reading and reading up on the bibles that christians.

Perhaps what we need to do here in your case is establish a few hard facts in relation to the bibles and this particular thread.

The god yahweh that appears in the bibles and is also generally accepted by the majority of christians as one and the same being as Jesus son of Joseph (the one that appears in the gospels and not necassarily one of the many other jesus').
makes it quite clear that the act of sex between two men is an abomination. This god (the christian god) specifies implicitly that as a result of committing this action the perpetrator shall be STONED TO DEATH.

Your own books clearly state that your god jesus/yahweh also implicitly states that not one word of the law (his law) will be changed .

Nevertheless, should the person committing the homosexual act for whatever reason manage to escape stoning to death he will be tortured for all eternity should he continue this practice to the point of his death.

Now we know what Ywheh had to say about homosexuality and as we know Jesus had nothing to say about it, after all why should he if he and yahweh are one and the same being? He already appears to have said all he had to say on the matter and makes it clear that the law has not nor will not change.

Neither I, nor other atheists are making this up it is right there in your books for all to see should they take the trouble to read, we didn't write it but many of us who are offered "to be saved" find it quite repugnant when we read it.

Pleas don't come here and insult our intelligence by harping on about verses being "out of context" if you're not willing to engage in reason.

Apparently you and I were posting at the same time as I've just seen this after my last post.

I am very happy to critically study the Bible. I do this, not for your sake, but for mine because I actually DO NOT CHERRY PICK. I believe if you are going to believe some of it, then believe it all...even if you don't like what it has to say.

reply to post by mamabeth

So,just how "cool" are you about having no hang-ups on sex? Are you going to be one of those parents who can sleep at night because their teen daughter is on the pill?

What exactly is wrong with my daughter should she happen to be on the pill ?

Is your attitude going to be that,"hey,kids' will be kids'?'

Indeed kids will be kids so what ? What exactly are you getting at ?

Kids need parents who will be parents.Kids' don't need parents who will grow up with them.

What the hell are you trying to imply here ? Are you questioning my parenting ?

I think that most members will agree with me that kids' need loving,caring parents.

Are you trying to say that I don't love or care about my children ? You've not even met them !!

Parents who lay down good foundations for their children to grow by.Some teach their children according to scripture,some don't.

And what does scripture say M?

Oh that's right if my son comes home with a boyfriend instead of a girlfriend he should be put to death !!! and/or he will be tortured for all eternity by an invisible man that lives in the sky !!!

If my son gets out of hand and is unruly he should be put to death !!!

If my daughter got married and happened not to be a virgin, PUT TO DEATH

Yes indeed your god has the parenting skill everyone should look up to

What it really boils down to,YOU are responsible for how your children are raised,no one else!

Indeed , so as a responsible parent I don't look to the writings of a bronze age scribe to tell me how to have a relationship with my children or raise them !!!

reply to post by the siren

I am very happy to critically study the Bible. I do this, not for your sake, but for mine because I actually DO NOT CHERRY PICK. I believe if you are going to believe some of it, then believe it all...even if you don't like what it has to say.

Ah good nice to see you being reasonable may I suggest to to begin that you take a few moments to intelligently consider and apply your critical thinking skills to this short video.

Then I have a specific biblical question for you if you don't mind. Thank you













Normally xtians in your position to take up the challenge and disappear from the thread only to resurface in another thread and start all over again sigh

Re Equinox99

As long as mankind is as zombified as it is now, I believe we have to live with power-balances between all the sociopathic leaders, messiahs and prophets and/or adherents to the 100.000 varieties of 'ultimate truth'.

The cold war was such a power-balance, albeit an extremely unstable one. Liberal society is less likely to explode at any moment, as the herd of zombies can continue their grazing peacefully (liberalism is 'energy-efficient' = better relative living standards), and the warlords, soldiers of god and others of that ilk will have problems recruiting. Anyone openly defying liberal principles in an inclusive democracy could even risk loosing face.

But the power-grabbing is still there under the surface, and as social interaction and technical 'cleverness' grow in complexity, the hidden powerfights grow correspondingly in complexity. E.g. information/disinformation, conspiracy-theory, social engineering etc., all of which can be boiled down to 'education of the masses', where especially school-education and upbringing of children plays a prominent role.

So when open violence is toned down, the powerfight has moved to the area of education and upbringing, and while I'm not so cynical as to suggest that the average parent or educator consciously considers children/students as pure 'assets' in ideological conflicts, I'm certain, that the ideological movers and shakers at higher levels where 'policy' is decided, will use every possibility they have to 'get at' children through parents/educators/organisations/youth-fads, who unwillingly or even unknowingly pass on the more or less invasive indoctrination intended.

There is few, if any, unbiased human beings, which prevents the practical possibility of unbiased role-models for children. Likewise we have 0 or alternatively 100.000 'ultimate realities' to choose between, when searching for an ideological basis to relate to. Seems rather hopeless.

But what most people tend to disregard (or in the case of extremists deny) is, that children start to be able to form their own opinions at a relative early age (say 13-14 years old, often earlier), and given OPTIONS of information to choose between (in the area of such relatively abstract subjects as religion and politics etc), they will develop into the individuals they will become eventually in any case, probably with a lot less damage than a heavily indoctrination can lead to.

So a few suggestions: Children should legally be able to choose their own religious/political allegiance and participation/non-participation in any religious/political activity, as soon as they can voice an opinion on the subject. All teaching in school on subjects of religion/politics/history/philosophy etc should be based on knowledge of history of ideology or ideology per se, rather than stressing the supremacy of any specific ideology. In the area of 'academic' pursuit ALL information should be available. No selective censorship, where 'Mein Kampf' or Darwin's theories are out, while OT is in. Or the other way round.

Some people may object, that the outcome would be monsters without any social or ethical standards. But I'm definitely not advocating permissive upbringing, there are still trafficrules to obey, household chores to do, bedtimes and all the other regulations of life. I'm only saying: Cut the ideological crap indoctrination.

PS. Equinox, I do not think, that atheists in any way excel other people, they will have to play by the same rules as everybody else. A secular, liberal society means, that religious organisations will have no say in governing. Religious individuals though can organise themselves in political groups and join politics....Ofcourse.

Originally posted by the siren
I am very happy to critically study the Bible. I do this, not for your sake, but for mine because I actually DO NOT CHERRY PICK. I believe if you are going to believe some of it, then believe it all...even if you don't like what it has to say.

In that case, can I have all your cotton/polyester clothes? You won't be wearing them any more.
I hope you don't mind giving up pork and shellfish.
Do you realise the earth has four corners, and sits motionless in space while the sun circles it?
You'll need to learn the purification rules, and not prepare food "at that time of the month".

You'd better not ask for anaesthetics when having a baby, because it's God's will that women be punished for the sins of Eve during childbirth.

That's a starter list for you.

Originally posted by Kailassa

Originally posted by the siren
I am very happy to critically study the Bible. I do this, not for your sake, but for mine because I actually DO NOT CHERRY PICK. I believe if you are going to believe some of it, then believe it all...even if you don't like what it has to say.

In that case, can I have all your cotton/polyester clothes? You won't be wearing them any more.
I hope you don't mind giving up pork and shellfish.
Do you realise the earth has four corners, and sits motionless in space while the sun circles it?
You'll need to learn the purification rules, and not prepare food "at that time of the month".

You'd better not ask for anaesthetics when having a baby, because it's God's will that women be punished for the sins of Eve during childbirth.

That's a starter list for you.

Hey 'the siren' : Didnt you know non-christians know the bible better than you do? Even Satan.

And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence:
For it is written, 'He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee:
And in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.'- Luke 4:9-11

Re The Endtime Warrior.

You wrote:

"Didnt you know non-christians know the bible better than you do? Even Satan."

You just proved, that this is indeed true. Which of the 'satans' are you referring to? According to OT 'satan' is a job description, not a name, and the job of 'satans' were actually to function as a kind of public prosecutor. So ofcourse they had to know the OT very well (and after Paulus also NT).

And the rest of your post examplifies exactly, what originally was said on this thread: Some christians pick and choose amongst all the selfcontradictory material in the book of blood and lies, until they find something to 'prove' the conclusions they already had from the start.

And then OTHER christians find OTHER verses out of context to prove THEIR premature conclusions. And THEN they will be calling each other heretics and excommunicate each other, and eventually (like the good little sociopaths they are) the most extreme of them will start killing each other (and probably some of us non-christians too, now when the flaming swords of selfrighteousness are out anyway).

So: How is your bibleverse-parrotting even remotely relevant to this thread? And if you have any children, biological, foster or adopted, do you bring them up along the lines you demonstrate here?

I'm just dying to read your next bible citation out-of-context as an answer to my post.

reply to post by The Endtime Warrior

And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence:

And lo he did not cast himself down as verily he had not have knowledge of this magik, thus he did spend much time giving thought to providing an excuse as to why he could not walk on air as he did water.

He responded" Verily verily I say unto you do not tempt me as I've loaned my flying horse to a chap called mohammed"

Satan laughed and flew of to have a really good time leaving jesus stranded, where unthreaded his robe and made a long rope"

And that children is how abseiling was invented.

Now for our next lesson you will learn how to throw a rock with great precision at a gay.

Hi Djin, you wrote:

"Now for our next lesson you will learn how to throw a rock with great precision at a gay."


And then someone will say:

"Hah, got you. Go read the bible, ignoramus, especially John 8:7"


And someone else will say:

"I have not come here to bring peace"


And someone who's never heard of covenant number 37 b with subclauses will stubbornly stick to good old rockthrowing.


And all the zombies, sociopaths and the terminal existentially uncertain will have their great day, rejoicing in the thought of the coming bloodbath, cooked up by their schizoid god who loves violence as much as peace (on alternate days).

But the little ones are innocent, ofcourse except that they are born sinners; but being to young to understand propagandistic double-binds, we have to teach them confusion already from the start, so they can get used to it.

It all makes wonderful sense.

Originally posted by The Djin
Ah good nice to see you being reasonable may I suggest to to begin that you take a few moments to intelligently consider and apply your critical thinking skills to this short video.

Then I have a specific biblical question for you if you don't mind. Thank you

I'm busy streaming them now, but this might take a while 'cause my man's busy online gaming. If I don't get back to you tonight, please don't think I'm ignoring you.

EDIT - I've watched them now.

Originally posted by Kailassa
In that case, can I have all your cotton/polyester clothes? You won't be wearing them any more.

Aah, the whole not using two different types of fabric meshed together law. I actually researched that one a while ago out of pure curiosity. I hope I'm not being too nit-picky, but I must point out that cotton is not a mixed fibre, and polyester is a synthetic fibre that did not exist in Biblical days. For possible explanations for this seemingly odd law, you should have a look at: en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by Kailassa
I hope you don't mind giving up pork and shellfish.

Not at all. To be fair though...I should disclose the fact that I've been a vegetarian for the past 15 years.
I really do feel that the dietary laws are for our own good. Eating pigs and bottom feeders just can't be good for us.

Originally posted by Kailassa
Do you realise the earth has four corners, and sits motionless in space while the sun circles it?

Years from now when our children's children's children happen to come across the Jamiroquia song "Corner of the earth", they might assume we thought the world was flat, or they might realise it's just an expression. I like to think the latter, but who knows.

Originally posted by Kailassa
You'll need to learn the purification rules, and not prepare food "at that time of the month".

lol, ok you got me on that one.

Originally posted by Kailassa
You'd better not ask for anaesthetics when having a baby, because it's God's will that women be punished for the sins of Eve during childbirth.

I don't plan to have an epidural. Though, I'll be honest, my decision has more to do with the fact that I'd like to be able to feel when to push.

reply to post by bogomil


I responded to one person in this thread. It is relevant, for that person. Next.

edit to add. Yes I have a child. Please refer to my earlier post in this thread to see how I raise my child. Also, its none of your damn business how I raise my child.

Nevermind. That was the 'other' thread. Its hard to keep track of all the anti-God threads around here.

Originally posted by The Endtime Warrior

Hey 'the siren' : Didnt you know non-christians know the bible better than you do? Even Satan.

And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence:
For it is written, 'He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee:
And in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.'- Luke 4:9-11

Hi 'The Endtime Warrior'

I'm sure many non-Christians do know the Bible better than I do. In my life, I've read the bible from cover to cover (excluding Revelation) twice, and a few months ago, I started again, but this time, critically studying each verse using Hebrew lexicons. I've learned so much more this way and I'm still on Genesis. Even so, I hardly consider myself an authority on Biblical subjects. Some people spend their whole lives dedicated to understanding the Bible. Sadly I don't have that kind of time.

I'm confused as to why you bring up the temptation of Jesus story though. If you are making a point...It's going over my head.

reply to post by the siren


In that verse, Satan took a "portion" of Psalm and used it in his favor , out of context. A tactic used by many.

Originally posted by The Endtime Warrior
reply to post by the siren

 

In that verse, Satan took a "portion" of Psalm and used it in his favor , out of context. A tactic used by many.

I see. Thank you for the explanation.

Re The Endtime Warrior

You wrote:

"Also, its none of your damn business how I raise my child."

So now the cat is out of the bag. Children are 'property', not individuals, to be used as the 'owners' (parents etc) want, and the subject is taboo even as a question of general attitudes on upbringing.

I'm not implying any personal criticism of you as a person, you may for all I know be the best parent in the world. But I certainly can draw some rather definite conclusions concerning ideological/cultural systems, where children (and people in general) are considered objects without any rights, instead of individuals.

And as OT sanctions slavery, including sexual use of the slaves; ...and as the ruling bloodline in OT had some peculiar sexual habits like incest, giving your daughters to gang-rape and pimping for your wife....and as contemporary christian authorities have hushed up similar sexual perversions...

it's a legitimate question to ask, how literal you take biblical instructions as opposed to secular, humanitarian principles. Because there is often a conflict between the two, where the OT brutality still manifests clearly, and fundamentalist christianity isn't doing much to demonstrate otherwise.

Originally posted by bogomil
So now the cat is out of the bag. Children are 'property', not individuals, to be used as the 'owners' (parents etc) want, and the subject is taboo even as a question of general attitudes on upbringing.

Are you saying this or are you saying that I am?

I'm not implying any personal criticism of you as a person, you may for all I know be the best parent in the world. But I certainly can draw some rather definite conclusions concerning ideological/cultural systems, where children (and people in general) are considered objects without any rights, instead of individuals.

Are you a parent?

And as OT sanctions slavery, including sexual use of the slaves; ...and as the ruling bloodline in OT had some peculiar sexual habits like incest, giving your daughters to gang-rape and pimping for your wife....and as contemporary christian authorities have hushed up similar sexual perversions...

This may have everything to do with this thread but it has nothing to do with the raising of my child. I am not a jew. Nor is their slavery in my household as is depicted in the OT.

it's a legitimate question to ask, how literal you take biblical instructions as opposed to secular, humanitarian principles. Because there is often a conflict between the two, where the OT brutality still manifests clearly, and fundamentalist christianity isn't doing much to demonstrate otherwise.

My child is 6 yrs old. He doesn't even know what a bible is. He does know that I believe in God. There is no reason to explain further, unless he asks.


You should really learn to use the reply button.

reply to post by bogomil

And someone who's never heard of covenant number 37 b with subclauses will stubbornly stick to good old rockthrowing.

Your' entire post killed me lol the irony of truth.

I'm off to bed early not too well so will catch up on this thread when feeling better or someone heals me with jesus.

Originally posted by the siren

Originally posted by Kailassa
In that case, can I have all your cotton/polyester clothes? You won't be wearing them any more.

Aah, the whole not using two different types of fabric meshed together law. I actually researched that one a while ago out of pure curiosity. I hope I'm not being too nit-picky, but I must point out that cotton is not a mixed fibre, and polyester is a synthetic fibre that did not exist in Biblical days. For possible explanations for this seemingly odd law, you should have a look at: en.wikipedia.org...

That's interesting, thanks. I like to know what's behind weird-seeming ideas.
So it's all about mixing animal and vegetable fibres, just wool and linen together in clothing banned for most Jews, and from your link:

Karaite Jews, who do not recognize the Talmud, forbid the wearing of garments made with linen and wool (and fibers from any plant and/or any animal) at once under any circumstances. It is forbidden even for one to touch the other.

Well I'm ok, my favourite outfit is wool and silk, both animal origins.

Originally posted by Kailassa
I hope you don't mind giving up pork and shellfish.

Not at all. To be fair though...I should disclose the fact that I've been a vegetarian for the past 15 years.
I really do feel that the dietary laws are for our own good. Eating pigs and bottom feeders just can't be good for us.

Definitely the way to go. But my local supermarket now stocks fish to die for, and right now I'm dying for a thick, moist, yellow-fin tuna steak just caught yesterday.

Originally posted by Kailassa
Do you realise the earth has four corners, and sits motionless in space while the sun circles it?

Years from now when our children's children's children happen to come across the Jamiroquia song "Corner of the earth", they might assume we thought the world was flat, or they might realise it's just an expression. I like to think the latter, but who knows.

The Catholic church seemed to think the bible meant what it said, just ask Galileo.

Originally posted by Kailassa
You'd better not ask for anaesthetics when having a baby, because it's God's will that women be punished for the sins of Eve during childbirth.

I don't plan to have an epidural. Though, I'll be honest, my decision has more to do with the fact that I'd like to be able to feel when to push.

Agreed, it hurt, but I preferred that to being incapacitated.
If I'd had an epidural for my third, he'd never have made it.

Originally posted by intrepid
What some extremist forget is Jesus words and actions. He associated with tax collectors, prostitutes, the "unclean". What would Jesus do, about homosexuality? I seriously doubt that he would diss them. I'm not saying that gays are any of the above. Just what is portrayed by the "righteous". I don't know of any biblical passage where Jesus hung with and condoned the Scribes and Pharisees. Quite the opposite. Extremists aren't following the teachings of Christ. They should get a clue.

I am with this 110%. Christians should start acting a little Christian or drop the moniker.