Large Hadron Collider (LHC) generates a 'mini-Big Bang'

Originally posted by GrOuNd_ZeRo
And here was someone hopin that a Half-life scenerio would come to pass....personally I wouldn't want headcrabs to be running around my house or have an alien over-lord keep our planet in a totalitarian 1984 type state lol.

Yeah. That was me. I only want to see it happen so that way this one coworker I have will piss his pants because he doesn't believe in aliens, etc. I listen to coast-to-coast on the car w/ him & he jokingly says I'm smoking crack for believing that stuff. & my boss says the same thing. Lol

reply to post by Marked One


Heh. This reminds me of an aspect of the short story in my sig, with some alien Satan-dude, somewhere, "out there" THINKING that he's running the show, but to hedge his bets, he's also willing to go to any lengths, for either some sort of inversion, to deep six the God of love! (of all things!) and/or, maintain dominion over man, which amounts to the same thing, man being God's highest creation and evolutionary expression in cosmic history. And this of course then represents a cosmic spiritual controversy, and conspiracy, of the highest order! Meanwhile, he's got people like Jake Parsons and Allistair Crowley, and every Grand Pubah, Prince and Queen and Prime Minsiter in the world running along with "the plan" at FULL SPEED, to as to please their "master", a God of matter, in all truth nothing but a self serving enemy of both man and God.

And just maybe, they are reaching a "stickey wicket" of sorts over there at CERN..

And it would be just like some of these a-holes, who's "fruits" we are well aware of by now ie: the DATA, is in now on THAT SCORE, to WANT for there to be increasing releases of say, dark matter here on earth, portals, a rip in spacetime, an anti-matter dark quark atom strangelet, a black hole, ANYTHING, we don't care we must "know it all", and anything to win a bunch of nobel prizes, and, to please our master the God of matter... Shiva displayed proudly at our door. That's CERN. Madmen. Occultists, and yes, some nice and very hard working physisics, but they've all got these s__ eating grins on their faces, I don't like the look of (SOME) of them to be honest.

CERN, it's a con-cern. I don't think they KNOW just what they are doing, and are willing to go to any lengths, including who knows what, something NOVEL, so novel it forever changes the PLANET as we know it - left to float around forever around some dark star to represent the ah "top preditor" in the universe.. ? God help us, if that far out hypothesis has any validity.

Or, it could JUST be science, harmless..

Either/or, and that's what bothers me, and how I shake at the prospect. May the God of love, the God of JC protect us, not from science, but from what science doing science of a certain type, can leads to. A "dark matter" spill, cannot be capped or retrieved, from from this Deep Water Event Horizon. It could be DANGEROUS, is all some of us are saying, and from what I understand, there are STARS, in the galactic halo, now detectable, which will validate these hypothesis about dark matter - we don't need to be PRODUCING it, here on earth, not at ANY COST.

They ought to just STOP for a long while, and process, and do the math, and check out those Neutron Stars in the halo, and SEE!

DO NOT PRODUCE DARK MATTER ON EARTH

there, I said it.

I said what I needed to say and I don't care what you might think, I understand it might sound crazy, a point of absolute NOVELTY, as a technological singularity. Just not of the AI variety, but the END of history, the earth reborn and turned into some type of ffreak star, I do NOT want that to happen at ANY COST.

There. Mission Accomplished.

NAM out.

That's wreckless

I am pretty sure this hasn't been mentioned yet.

The Large Hadron Collider is entirely safe, and we have mother nature to prove it. Every day, and ever since our planet came into existence over 4 billion years ago, our atmosphere has been bombarded with particles called Ultra-High Energy Cosmic Rays.

Now, the Large Hadron Collider, at maximum energy output, will create collisions between particles accelerated to 10^7 electron volts, for a total collision energy of 10^14 electron volts.

But these Cosmic Rays have been bombarding our atmosphere with energies of up to and over 10^20 electron volts! That is SIX ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE larger than anything we will ever squeeze out of the LHC. And the fact that this has been going on for billions of years lays to rest the notion that these may slowly accumulate in the center of the Earth, as some people have dubiously speculated.

I've issued this argument over a dozen times and never seen its internal logic challenged (although I'm definitely open to the possibility that I'm totally wrong) so until then I think it's case closed.

reply to post by Son of Will


One question only then, Son of Will:

Do these rays' properties change over time, in any way, from the moment of the big bang?

reply to post by NewAgeMan


That is another way of asking, what is the origin of these cosmic rays? The universe has been around for (so the theories say) 14 billion years or slightly less. Our solar system is about 4.5 billion years old.

In the last 4.5 billion years of the universe's evolution, to the best of current knowledge, there hasn't been a great deal of change. We know that galaxies are extremely ancient, we have found fully-formed ones 10-billion light years away (meaning they are 10-billion years old) so the general structure of the universe has been more or less stable since then.

The sources of cosmic rays can range from supernova explosions, but the most powerful are considered to be when black holes merge. Since black holes and their interactions with each other and surrounding matter are probably the main culprits for these ultra-high energy cosmic rays, what makes black holes?

Extremely large stars do when they die. Our sun will make a sort of "poof" then slowly expand and fade out upon its death, but the more massive stars collapse in on themselves (again, as the theories go). But the more massive a star is, the shorter its lifespan. Some only last 200 or 300 million years. So considering how many stars are in the universe, something like 10^20 or something ridiculous like that, and how many of them would have collapsed into black holes, it's easy to see that a simply staggering amount of cosmic debris is being thrown about the universe.

Basically, if black holes are the main culprits, then you would probably see a gradual increase in cosmic ray bombardment, over the billions of years. So 4.5 billion years ago there would be less - but not by much. I suppose our solar system's position within the galaxy might have some cyclical effects where it ebbs and flows.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
Question - for the more astute physics buffs among us:

Are there not hypothetical deep-space objects, like nutron stars the the like, capable of shedding light (or darkness) on the very same questions the physicists wish to pose to matter and it's formation, and destruction, which would not require creating the conditions of creation and destruction of matter here on earth?

Also, is it theoretically possible for these experiments at the LHC to produce up, down and strange quarks (squarks) capable of forming stable dark matter?

Thank you.

Listen, I'm not trying to be an a__ here, but these are pretty straightforward questions..

We've got a LOT of physics buffs around here surely, who can shed some light on these things, and again I'm being entirely sincere there's no sarcasm there, no snarkiness at all.

reply to post by Son of Will


Forgive me you posted when I did ^

are you saying that the particles themselves in terms of their "lifelong" properties have not varied to any significant degree, at all, since their formation and since they were sent on their way earthward? I realize the energies are similar, and that's good sign, sure, but is there anything at all different from a particle from a cosmic ray, launched 10 billion years ago, and one they're going to produce at the LHC, tomorrow, fresh?

My understanding was that they were going to be liberating certain particles of certain types, together in combination, in search of selections, squarks and the like, or anti-matter in effect (dark matter) - not liberated since the earliest creation of the universe.. am I wrong, or are you just simplifying everything by referring to the particles' energy only and then comparing that to very old particles, which may have "downgraded" in some way since their creation many billions of years ago, all the way back, presumably, to the Big Bang itself, unless of course we actually live in a steady state universe, with matter ALWAYS and forever arising from the Zero Point Field of the vacuum of spacetime.. after all the Big Bang IS just a "theory" after all, the steady state or some sort of evolutionary eternall recurrance are still equally plausible hypothesis, unless we MUST have an arrow of time and a DEATH by entropy..

So what precisely ARE we creating then over at CERN, since presumably, they are performing this service one behalf of us all and mankind, for the sake of wisdom, and understanding only?

It there anything fundamentally unique about THESE particles they are creating, and CAN they combine to form anti-matter, since all the constituent components for it are appearing in simultaneity.

Thank you.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Well I'm 100% convinced that "dark matter" is a complete farce, and an embarrassment to modern science, so I can't answer that question.

But for your question about deep-space objects like neutron stars, there really is no comparison. For one thing, we could never get close enough to a neutron star, or any similar object to study what it looks like on a molecular scale. It's because deep-space observation can never be a real laboratory. We can't isolate various influences and study single components, like we do in down-to-earth sciences like chemistry and biology.

Particle colliders are physicists' best tool for getting a direct look into otherwise completely theoretical territory. And for the particular purpose at hand (finding and studying the Higgs Boson) it is currently the ONLY tool available.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


It's no secret that the scientists at the LHC don't know exactly what is going to come out of the experiments. There is a LOT of theoretical work being bounced around and almost NONE of it can be substantiated with experimental results because you need things as powerful as this to study it.

I was saying that, whatever comes out of the LHC will be, at the very most, what Cosmic Rays do to our planet on a daily basis. It's possible that these Cosmic Rays produce all manner of up and down and strange quarks as well as "liberate" Higgs Bosons, you are quite correct in your assessment.

And a particle that was emitted 10 billion years ago will only lose energy if it travels through a gas or dust cloud of some kind. Or if it's ionized, then a magnetic field can slow it (though possibly speed it up). Considering how many of these high-energy particles must be produced constantly, it's no wonder that a substantial amount get through into our atmosphere.

reply to post by Son of Will


Ok forget "dark matter" then, what about anti-matter ie: all the opposite particles, like selectrons, squarks and the like.

I also heard that an up, down and a strange quark can form something called strangelets. Is this not so?

reply to post by Son of Will


Theoretically, can they stick together to create a stable form of matter, since like I said, all the components are there in the chamber?

And are they liberating anything unique there, that we know is NOT produced by cosmic rays hitting the earth?

Have we detected up, down, and strange - eminating from Cosmic Rays? I know we have yet to see a Higgs Boson (unless very recently). Or did you just pull a fast one there by saying that it's "theoretically possible" only, that we get "all the usual suspects" bombarding the earth daily?

And if such a thing were theoretically possible, would it not then immediately become the most stable element on earth and indeed, sink to the core, with other matter gloming onto it?

This is the fear, or the concern some of us are having.

That these are NEW, never before SEEN particles, particles never liberated since the early creation, if it was a Big Bang that is.

And from what I can tall, all the parts are there, for a type of anti-matter to form, all of them, so why would it not then have at least a theoretical possibility, a large one at that, of forming?

Please answer me those last questions if you could. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it, and so do the readers I'm sure.

On a wholly positive note, at least they didn't choose to run the experiment on Halloween!

and instead chose Nov 7, 7/11, a lucky number (as if crossing their fingers?).

The whole thing has a kind of Russian Roulette feel to it as far as I'm concerned, theoretical this, theoretical that.

They have a TON of data now, why not hold off on continuing to blast lead Ions together for the balance of November, eh?

Let's not push our luck.

Then again, they have other things in store for 2011 and 2012 as we know, when the turn the knob to FULL POWER.

I don't think it's CRAZY to be concerned about this. And I know I'm not the only one.

Ok that's it for me, sorry for hijacking the thread. Back to the Future now I guess...

Originally posted by Jordan River

Originally posted by GrOuNd_ZeRo
And here was someone hopin that a Half-life scenerio would come to pass....personally I wouldn't want headcrabs to be running around my house or have an alien over-lord keep our planet in a totalitarian 1984 type state lol.

I support this science 100% and feel strongly that this research will give birth to new technologies.

edit on 9-11-2010 by Jordan River because: (no reason given)

Last thing - and I don't care how I "look" expressing myself on this issue.

Jordan River,

Could you please explain what the pic you posted is supposed to mean and signify, and IS that the same guy, looks the same to me.

What's this about. I can see what you're suggesting, but if you see this, could you please clarify a little further, thanks.

Maybe I am paranoid I don't know, but I do know there's nothing wrong with asking questions.

I AM out of this thread now, forgive me for appearing obsessive, but I'm not the only one asking these questions.

There are risks involved with everything.. However we aren't experimenting with throwing rocks, or making the wheel..

Imho, there is not enough known about the universe, for all we know, they may create a black hole which is powered by an unseen factor, maybe indeed black holes' have "another end" and it may well be smack bang in the middle of dark matter, which causes the hole to expand. Who knows? They don't.

It would be different if they were experimenting with gunpowder, something very localised, however even scientists have spoken out against CERN and the risks they are posing with the LHC.

If your local council was intending on building a new type of nuclear reactor in your neighborhood, they would have to consult the locality. This experiment, could potentially have global consequences, before it is powered up again for the "next step" I would like to see a wider range of consultations, not just their own (biased) "best and brightest".

reply to post by LilFox


They joke that if they are wrong, then it won't matter anyway, and there'll be no one to hold accountible, and Stephen Hawking just loves to joke about the black holes how he'd win the Nobel prize but wouldn't be here to recieve it and suggested that CERN will give him a new shot at it, and he even has stupid bets running on it, just for #s and giggles. He's also the one who insists that black holes will evaporate by going backwards in time, and as smart as he may be, that at the end of the "big crunch" we'll be into a reverse causation, the whole universe playing itself backwards, this very sentence being erased by my very own hands at some point in the indefinite future.

What disturbes me the most about this, is the video of one of their young physicists talking about the safety issue, who after making the same joke (ha ha ha) he said something about novelty, and then got a funny smirk, averted his eyes turned his head and started touching his nose (yes I know they're nerds, but this was something else).

absolute simplicity and utter novelty, at the end of complexity in a big bang entropic universe, simulating the creation in destruction of matter, is what? in my mind it spells either death, or, death and resurrection, and then there are the "signs" if you watch for those (I made a thread about it called Something's Going to Happen).

It seems just totally wreckless and they've got enough data from this big smash on Sunday, to keep them busy for YEARS. Nevertheless, they've got lead ion smashing in the calendar for the whole month of November..

It's disconcerting and I don't trust them completely to do what it right by us all.

Sorry I couldn't help adding just ONE more post, for posterity.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


I had posted the event back on the first day of the information release date, here's the thread, and thanks for the update!!

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher

I guess whether you support the work being done at the LHC or not...it is still pretty cool stuff.

So they created this "mini big bang"...and look at that...we are all still here...aren't we?

I'm not sure how I feel about it...I like progress...but then again I don't like people messing with stuff they don't completely understand.

What are people's thoughts on this...for it...against it? Suprised it didn't blow us all up?

www.bbc.co.uk
(visit the link for the full news article)

edit on 8-11-2010 by OutKast Searcher because: (no reason given)

How are we supposed to "completely understand" something unless we experiment? Knowledge doesn't just appear without cause. You experiment, you learn.

reply to post by Wolfenz


Half Life was actually based upon the events of Stephen King's original short story The Myst. The idea is that the Myst and monsters came out of the portal that was ripped open in Half Life.

Originally posted by OrphenFire
From my understanding, the entire purpose of the LHC was for this very experiment. They hoped that by recreating the events of the big bang, they might be able to locate the Higgs Boson. Since they aren't yet reporting the discovery of the Higgs Boson, we can only assume they didn't find it.

However, if they DID find it, and aren't reporting it, then it is even more fantastic than we previously thought.

You do realize that it can takes months and even years to filter through all of the data, right? It's not like picking up an encyclopedia and going right to where the information you want is. There is reams and reams of data that they will be looking through for a long time before they can say they found anything like a new particle. And even if they /do/ find evidence thereof, the next step is not to announce it but to reproduce it. Only after they have reproduced the findings can they say "We found it".

Originally posted by new_here
reply to post by buddhasystem

 

Buddhasystem, a question please. If you've already answered it I apologize. I tried to read every page, but my puppy stepped on the Enter key at an inopportune moment.

So-- a tiny Big Bang (hmm... oxymoron!) -- How on earth can they really be sure it doesn't take on a 'life of its own,' continue to expand, just like the big Big Bang?! Can anybody in the world state definitively that there is no chance of that happening? There's obviously no empirical data to go on, this being uncharted territory and all. I'm not a gloom-n-doomer, but it'd be a cryin shame if the biggest lesson they from these experiments was... "Oh Sheeeeet!!!"

The thing is, they didn't create an actual "mini-big bang". That's just media hyping. What they did was collide particles together with such force that it broke them apart so that all of the subatomic particles separated. It's believed that the subatomic particles were all separate right after the Big Bang before they began joining up to create atoms and whatnot. They didn't create a mini-big bang, they just created a soup of free subatomic particles LIKE what we think existed right after the Big Bang.