Large Hadron Collider (LHC) generates a 'mini-Big Bang'

Originally posted by muzzleflash
You know what, the LHC is so useless, primitive, and impractical

Primitive? How much do you know about the principles and techniques of its operation? Let me guess: zero.

Impractical? No, it won't do your espresso. There are coffee machines for that. But look, telescopes aren't good for that either!

and in the truest sense a huge massive waste of money - at a time when people are facing starvation and mass poverty in every nation on Earth.

Let's read on to what you are about to say.... Drum roll...

The rest must go to black ops. Something useful, practical, important, and worth the money.

I just am skeptical and cannot believe that all of these so called "intelligent" scientists and government officials and military heads wouldn't go straight for something a bit more useful. Like another weapon, security, or defense system.

Astonishing. First you b!tch about global hunger, then say in the same breath that we need to direct monies to new weapons systems. Cognitive dissonance?

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by buddhasystem

 

Incorrect.

They were fairly certain about self-sustaining fission process, and were able to calibrate their calculations to experimental data, good work there by Fermi and others. One part of the project was to create a bomb, and again they were able to implement a fairly sophisticated detonation mechanism by compression of plutonium. That just doesn't happen in a "what if" manner. These guys nailed it down cold.

I think the "fairly certain" part does it for me.

I thought that discussion here was above the grade school level.

As Einstein said, we don't know exactly what the result of our research is going to be, because otherwise it wouldn't be called "research".

Men in white coats worry me

...and I'm sure you'd feel right at home in Dark Ages.

I had no idea they were trying it again. In a way I am glad all the fanfare wasn't out and about before they did the experiment. It is easier to digest the information without all of the "OHMYGAWD WE ARE ALL GONNA BLOW UP!" worries.

reply to post by muzzleflash

It just seems like a huge smoke and mirrors effect.

Similar to NASA in a odd sense.

They drain all this funding, and in reality only use a small portion of it.

The rest must go to black ops.

I agree muzzleflash, the whole LHC thing smacks of NASA.

That being said, I think there are still serious risks concerning this project, even if we take it at face value. Are they toying with forces beyond their understanding? Obviously. Of course, one can argue that you will never gain an understanding without taking some risk.

The project is also reminiscent of the Tower of Babel myth. While there may be machines far beyond what they tell us, after decades of trillions going into black operations, taking the LHC on it's face again, it seems to be the most expensive scientific experiment ever. Lots of human pride we might say invested in such a thing.

Something I haven't seen mentioned yet, but the Higg's boson, along with Hawking's theory of "evaporating" black holes, these are both unproven, some might even say unlikely. The thing is, if the scientists are wrong, then the risk profile could be substantially greater. Very much like Manhattan Project estimates that are off by 400%, or a vague scientific understanding that the atmosphere could be ignited (especially with the H-bomb).

Of course, if it was merely about scientists being a bit off on their estimates, that might be OK, but they literally are grasping for a foundation that isn't there yet. Their estimates seem more like "guestimates", and if they are off by orders of magnitude, due to the lacking foundational knowledge, then something very "bad" might indeed have a probability substantially greater than zero.

Sadly, what we learned from the Hydrogen Bomb is that scientists will concede that there is perhaps a genuine risk present, of a catastrophic result from their tinkerings, and yet, they will do it anyway. It is this that is the most disturbing about these proud representatives of the human race. They will play Russian Roulette with our lives, they have proved it.

The responsible thing to do is likely not popular, but it seems that we need to WAIT, until we can achieve a high enough level of confidence that any experiment is safe. Otherwise, it should not be done. I might even say that if we had to wait until we could perform the experiment elsewhere, another planet, etc., then fine, we need to wait until we can do the experiment far enough away, based on the real probabilities that are being dealt with.

JR

Originally posted by nightbringr
i dont see any way we can carry on without these experiments.

You are not too bright. We have made it thousands of years so far without them. I dont see how banging atoms together at the speed of light is progress. Sounds like a dangerous waste of tax dollars if you ask me.

There isn't any risk of the planet exploding anyone who says otherwise doesn't have a understanding of what the LHC is trying to accomplish. The experiment could lead to many new discoveries that would benifit the world and boost economy, science is the way forward it's bloody brilliant!

I know little about the LHC, but I fear these Geeks will keep pushing this thing to the Brink and something awful will be the outcome. I hope only to them.


reply to post by OutKast Searcher

reply to post by spokaneman1983

To get this far, the Cern researchers have had to pioneer new techniques and design new technologies at almost every step of the way. The last great Cern instrument, called the Large Electron–Positron Collider (LEP), produced so much data that one of the team invented the world wide web to share the research around the planet. Nobody yet can be sure of spin-off from the LHC, but there will be wider benefits: if knowledge is power, then the LHC has already begun to deliver. In 10 years, the project has delivered skills and experience to thousands of engineering businesses and maintained tens of thousands of jobs, and all for a fraction of the $33bn that US bankers paid themselves in bonuses in 2008 alone, while losing money and closing down businesses everywhere.

The ignorance on this forum astounds me at times.

double post

reply to post by estar


What astounds me is that we develop technologies. Call it progress. Then use the info or device as a weapon. That is why I have to shun this. I don't think it's good points are relevant until us Humans get out of the Dark Ages and stop trying to rape the planet and kill each other. We need to grow up first or we will likely suffer nature's punishment for being a spontaneous, rebellious, childish species.

When money stops running the world, and we do things based on common good and the intelligent pursuit of progress for all then we might be ready.

Originally posted by spokaneman1983
reply to post by estar

 

What astounds me is that we develop technologies. Call it progress. Then use the info or device as a weapon. That is why I have to shun this. I don't think it's good points are relevant until us Humans get out of the Dark Ages and stop trying to rape the planet and kill each other. We need to grow up first or we will likely suffer nature's punishment for being a spontaneous, rebellious, childish species.

When money stops running the world, and we do things based on common good and the intelligent pursuit of progress for all then we might be ready.

edit on 9-11-2010 by spokaneman1983 because: (no reason given)

Are you kidding me? you do realise you wouldn't be even posting on this forum if it wasn't for CERN, they deserve massive amounts of more money.

Well i guess we should, all be happy we are all still here but who knows maybe a black hole has started opening somewhere, better watch out for all the new predictions

Originally posted by xxshadowfaxx
I am 100% for the LHC. There is nothing sinister about it. It's science. In a worst case scenario, if an experiment went horribly wrong, the LHC and area it is in, would explode. It is far too small to make the entire planet explode. The scientists aren't stupid. They know what they are doing. If the LHC was really dangerous to the planet, they would not do it. They wouldn't even be allowed to do it. All this fear about the LHC is unfounded. I really hope they can get a better understand about the universe and the god particle and so on. The LHC is the one and only thing on this planet, that can explain how life began. And that is certainly one question that has been on my mind since I was a kid.

Unfounded huh?
Without empirical data...you cannot say this and have intelligent people agree.



Please watch the video here: (Text Excerpt taken from here
video.godlikeproductions.com...


Please read this:

Dr. Walter L. Wagner discusses the potential destruction of our planet earth creating micro black holes and strangelets with the LHC. He indicates the current CERN safety reports are seriously flawed and contain unacceptable risks.

For example, if micro black holes are created, which CERN estimates about 1 micro black hole every second, the effects of this experiment may be months to years after the first LHC collisions.

These people in charge of the LHC lack self-preservation instincts in similar way, like many sectarians. No evidence or theory would convince them about LHC disaster, until it really happens...

They are breaking the Precautionary Principle : en.wikipedia.org...

These LHC scientists willingly want to create black holes.......without knowing full well the consequences...


If Einstein is right, then the CERN LHC is dangerous...

www.notepad.ch...

lhc-concern.info...

www.thefreelibrary.com...

cerncourier.com...

www.suteka.za.net...

www.physorg.com...

physicsworld.com...

lhc-concern.info...

www.scientificblogging.com...

papers.ssrn.com...

papers.ssrn.com...

papers.ssrn.com...

arxiv.org...

arxiv.org...

arxiv.org...

www.space.com...

www.scienceblog.com...

www.springerlink.com...

www.redorbit.com...

arxiv.org...

www.universetoday.com...

www.sciencedaily.com...

www3.interscience.wiley.com...

www.easterbrook.ca...

www.physorg.com...

www.physorg.com...

adsabs.harvard.edu...

cdsweb.cern.ch...

www.sciencedirect.com... nchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1288802636&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=b586bb1a8bbe8a65ff2510249aef5eac

www.risk-evaluation-forum.org...

reply to post by estar


There are absolutely risk concerning the CERN.

What we don't know is what the risks are or what the probabilities are. This is groundbreaking area.

This doesn't make it any less neccessary.

There are risks associated at almost every level of research. Biology, chemistry, physics, etc. As the scientists do more tests, the first thing they will do is start to establish boundries to help mitigate the risks. No different than biologists working with ebola or small pox, or chemical engineers reworking explosives. As we learn, we do try to protect ourselves...self preservation and all.

The biggest fear with CERN is that it is almost 100% unknown. Unlike biology and chemistry (now anyways), with the supercolliders we are still at a stage where we can do no better than guess at the outcomes. This has lead to a huge amount of expressed fears. Some founded and some unfounded.

To anybody afraid. Relax, the odds of something truely terrible happening are very, very small. And, everytime a test is performed and data collected, the next tests will be safer. If we have survived the first test, we will most likely survive the remaining tests.

man...i would love to take a tour of that facility. pretty interesting work.

Originally posted by spokaneman1983
I don't think it's good points are relevant until us Humans get out of the Dark Ages and stop trying to rape the planet and kill each other. We need to grow up first or we will likely suffer nature's punishment for being a spontaneous, rebellious, childish species.

It sounds more like you want to go into the dark ages than come out of them.

We can't wait until all humans are perfect to conduct research, that will never happen. Most people are good I think and those that are bad we have to deal with, but this is an ongoing process like research is.

Originally posted by xxshadowfaxx
The scientists aren't stupid. They know what they are doing.

The scientists dont know what they are doing or they would already know the outcome, they do not understand every factor and particle of matter - they dont even really understand gravity, they can just measure it and observe its effects. No scientists are not stupid, but it is foolish to think they are currently capable of understanding all possible outcomes of an experiment as complex as this.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher

I'm not sure how I feel about it...I like progress...but then again I don't like people messing with stuff they don't completely understand.

What are people's thoughts on this...for it...against it? Suprised it didn't blow us all up?

Relax a mini big bang is mini and cannot do any harm as such. even if a mini black hole is created, it will rapidly evaporate,

Mini big bang the masses are tiny, so no real danger even if the temps exceed that of the centre on the sun

My opinion on this is: I don't need to know what created us. God created us. I do think that without risk there is no advancement. To move forward we have to take a chance. However, I hope they use this knowledge for a good reason. I just don't have much faith in our government anymore. I see them creating weapons and that's it. I want something to improve mankind's quality of life. I don't need them trying to discredit God for what he created. I feel like if they do have anything to improve mankind's quality of life that they will keep it under wraps inevitably. TPTB will use it simply to benefit themselves. This is scary, but I think it is scary to us because we do not understand it. It scares me but the people running this thing are a hundred times smarter than me. && plus it gives me some comfort knowing that if a mini-black hole or something of that is created then its going to eat up the people that created it first and guess what, eventually it will eat up the elite also! & if we know one thing, TPTB are selfish and would do nothing to hurt themselves. So I think we are safe.

i read about this on bbc yesterday. i think any experimentation to further understanding and knowledge of things most do not know is a wonderful kind of exploration. i am all for it. i do have a question though, it said this 'mini big-bang' created heat 10 times that of our own sun... how did they contain heat 10 times that of our sun not even a mile underground? i understand they have massive cooling instruments, but 10 X solar heat? i really don't understand